Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation

[Belsnickel]

I have no idea how I missed this post last night.

(10-18-2023, 08:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Bel, you little mynx, that is the epitome of a false news headline.  It's like a headline that reads, "John Smith is a pedophile, source say."  Especially, as you correctly point out, I wouldn't take Hamas at their word about literally anything.  That headline is setting the narrative before you read one word of the article.

I don't disagree with your premise, I disagree with the conclusion that it is "false news" or misinformation/disinformation. They did not say anything that was inaccurate in the headline. They are setting a narrative, that much is certain, but they walked the line pretty well on the side of accuracy. This isn't a NYT issue, or a CNN issue, we can find this all through corporate media.

For profit news agencies like them, like Fox, Newsmax, MSNBC, whoever, are not in the business of selling accurate reporting. They are in the business of selling the consumers/viewers/readers to their advertisers. In order to do that, they need more clicks, more eyeballs on their content and/or ears listening in. They care about accuracy only so far as to make sure they don't lose viewership, which often means they don't except for the most egregious things. They have their market share pretty well pegged and they will cater their headlines and chyron scrolls to keep the attention of their loyal viewers simply because that means more ad revenue comes in.

You don't have to like it. Lord knows I don't which is why I don't use corporate media and hate having to click on any of the links posted on here. But that's the reality of our media landscape in this country. We don't have the laws that require accurate and unbiased reporting. We don't have a publicly funded news agency like the BBC. Instead we have severely underfunded, viewer supported programming that attempts to fill the need but is attacked for their efforts. And don't get me wrong, I prefer the NGO approach because state-run media is a horrible thing and we should treasure the first amendment and the ability for these news agencies to do what they do. I just want to make sure we recognize what the issue is because it is far deeper than this headline or even the whole of the NYT. But the majority on here just like to pretend it is only the news organizations they disagree with that are the problem.

Not saying you specifically, I just hopped on my soap box and got carried away.

(10-18-2023, 08:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I used to give her the benefit of the doubt.  I think Omar has proven herself to be an obvious antisemite, she casually traffics in far too many antisemitic tropes for me to believe otherwise.  Plus, if that's what she's comfortable saying out loud then imagine what she thinks but doesn't say.  Now I think Tlaib might be the worse of the two.  It'll be interesting to see how much blowback she gets from this.  My guess is little to none except on the conservative media circuit.

I honestly don't pay a ton of attention to either of them. I couldn't tell you what they say or do. If they end up in a leadership role in the House or somehow pull something off legislatively, then I would pay attention. If they are asshats then that is on their constituents to pay attention to. I don't have the bandwidth. I have my own asshat politicians to deal with.

[GMDino]

(10-18-2023, 09:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My OP was only meant to point out the disinformation being put out within minutes (not hours) Israel strike on hospital in Gaza kills 100's. Then Talib uses the misinformation and tweets it as fact to the world. Now we have American embassies facing violent protests in the middle east. We have a protest at the capital where Talib doubled down and blamed Israel.

The NYT has walked back their reporting, but the match was lit. Talib expands the propaganda versus setting the record straight to protesters today, she refuses to ever accept the facts.

Do you think the CNN (international news desk) and NYT retractions will make the damage go away. Hamas and other terrorists within Gaza are using them as human shields. My guess is they still think Israel attacked the hospital because CNN and NYT said they did as well as a US Congress Woman. The answer by many is to ignore it. That would be a huge mistake and exactly what a terrorist organization like Hamas wants.

This is a world disinformation article, a war of words Hamas wins when they bomb their own, but can get the media and politicians to say Israel did it. It amazes me people dismiss women being raped, kidnapped, babies killed and in some cases beheaded, babies kidnapped. People dancing and celebrating peace one minute and dead or kidnapped the next. They were not soldiers, they were citizens just like many of us. I hope people realize what happened in Israel can happen in the US. I hope people realize the 2nd amendment may save lives if a Hamas, Isis or terror group attacks the wrong family.

What you get with a 24 hour news cycle is initial reports so they can be "first" that many times change as new information comes in.

This covers ALL media these days.  And they will change leads, stories, etc.  Sometimes they issue retractions.  Sometimes they put a small note at the bottom of the article that it was updated with whatever information.

Anyone who follows the media should know to hold up when making decisions, forming opinions, based on the first article.

Now that is for currently happening news.

There are also plenty of investigative articles that are good because they took the time to verify sources and facts.  And even they have to issue corrections sometimes.

There was a story before the bombing at the hospital saying that Israel had told the doctors to leave and they refused.  Then there was a bombing.

Both sides blamed each other. Let's not pretend like both side have not killed civilians.

Welcome to war.

EDIT TO ADD: The sheer amount of misinformation out there. Not just from Hamas or Israel but from Russia or Jordan or even Egypt. And it is shared with open arms on social media here in the US and around the world.

Let's not forget that our own government had no problem lying to us about what we did in Vietnam as long as it kept any support for the war going.

[Millhouse]

Regardless of whether it was a narrative news agencies were trying to create or blatant misinformation, the majority of the Arab nations including our "allies" blamed Israel for it. Maybe some of retracted, but I don't know if they have. The Anti-Israel No Matter What crowd believes it was Israel, and digging in even deeper. So the damage is done, and for many they will regard contradictory evidence as nothing more than lies and Zionist propaganda.

Anyways not long after it happened I said just wait for the evidence since Hamas are Islamic jihadist terrorists after all. And by evidence I mean the dozens of satellites hovering way up above recording every millisecond of what every square inch of Gaza. Once our fine folks from CIA and the military went through all the video data, they knew pretty quick it didn't come from Israel I am assuming. So myself I am going to believe them over over those that support the Jihadists. Unfortunately though the initial misinformation/propaganda narrative is enough proof for many out there.

[*pally*]

(10-19-2023, 10:38 AM)Millhouse Wrote: Regardless of whether it was a narrative news agencies were trying to create or blatant misinformation, the majority of the Arab nations including our "allies" blamed Israel for it. Maybe some of retracted, but I don't know if they have. The Anti-Israel No Matter What crowd believes it was Israel, and digging in even deeper. So the damage is done, and for many they will regard contradictory evidence as nothing more than lies and Zionist propaganda.

Anyways not long after it happened I said just wait for the evidence since Hamas are Islamic jihadist terrorists after all. And by evidence I mean the dozens of satellites hovering way up above recording every millisecond of what every square inch of Gaza. Once our fine folks from CIA and the military went through all the video data, they knew pretty quick it didn't come from Israel I am assuming. So myself I am going to believe them over over those that support the Jihadists. Unfortunately though the initial misinformation/propaganda narrative is enough proof for many out there.

the Arab world and anti-Israel people were always going to blame Israel regardless of the reporting

[Millhouse]

(10-19-2023, 10:53 AM)pally Wrote: the Arab world and anti-Israel people were always going to blame Israel regardless of the reporting

Yup

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-19-2023, 10:53 AM)pally Wrote: the Arab world and anti-Israel people were always going to blame Israel regardless of the reporting

You going to actually address Luvnit's point now?  You really laid into him in the first two posts and his premise had a lot of weight behind it.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-19-2023, 08:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have no idea how I missed this post last night.


I don't disagree with your premise, I disagree with the conclusion that it is "false news" or misinformation/disinformation. They did not say anything that was inaccurate in the headline. They are setting a narrative, that much is certain, but they walked the line pretty well on the side of accuracy. This isn't a NYT issue, or a CNN issue, we can find this all through corporate media.

For profit news agencies like them, like Fox, Newsmax, MSNBC, whoever, are not in the business of selling accurate reporting. They are in the business of selling the consumers/viewers/readers to their advertisers. In order to do that, they need more clicks, more eyeballs on their content and/or ears listening in. They care about accuracy only so far as to make sure they don't lose viewership, which often means they don't except for the most egregious things. They have their market share pretty well pegged and they will cater their headlines and chyron scrolls to keep the attention of their loyal viewers simply because that means more ad revenue comes in.

You don't have to like it. Lord knows I don't which is why I don't use corporate media and hate having to click on any of the links posted on here. But that's the reality of our media landscape in this country. We don't have the laws that require accurate and unbiased reporting. We don't have a publicly funded news agency like the BBC. Instead we have severely underfunded, viewer supported programming that attempts to fill the need but is attacked for their efforts. And don't get me wrong, I prefer the NGO approach because state-run media is a horrible thing and we should treasure the first amendment and the ability for these news agencies to do what they do. I just want to make sure we recognize what the issue is because it is far deeper than this headline or even the whole of the NYT. But the majority on here just like to pretend it is only the news organizations they disagree with that are the problem.

Not saying you specifically, I just hopped on my soap box and got carried away.

None of what you posted here is new to me, and I wholeheartedly agree.  But there is a major difference in doing this during peacetime and doing it in a way that actually endangers American lives and absolutely fans the flames of a conflict already in great danger of expanding.  Like I said in an earlier post, the NYT's handed Hamas a massive propaganda win with that first headline.  They literally aided a terrorist organization.  We see the results in front of US embassies in several nations.  This can't be business as usual for these clowns.

Quote:I honestly don't pay a ton of attention to either of them. I couldn't tell you what they say or do. If they end up in a leadership role in the House or somehow pull something off legislatively, then I would pay attention. If they are asshats then that is on their constituents to pay attention to. I don't have the bandwidth. I have my own asshat politicians to deal with.

I'd love to not pay attention to them as well.  But the media over amplifies their voices so they're hard to avoid if you view anything close to a spectrum of news outlets.  Plus, it is galling to see the preferential treatment they receive over people like Boebert or MTG.  Also, Tlaib won't be voted out, she represents a heavily Muslim district, so she probably gained votes with this vulgar display.

[Belsnickel]

(10-19-2023, 10:38 AM)Millhouse Wrote: Regardless of whether it was a narrative news agencies were trying to create or blatant misinformation, the majority of the Arab nations including our "allies" blamed Israel for it. Maybe some of retracted, but I don't know if they have. The Anti-Israel No Matter What crowd believes it was Israel, and digging in even deeper. So the damage is done, and for many they will regard contradictory evidence as nothing more than lies and Zionist propaganda.

Anyways not long after it happened I said just wait for the evidence since Hamas are Islamic jihadist terrorists after all. And by evidence I mean the dozens of satellites hovering way up above recording every millisecond of what every square inch of Gaza. Once our fine folks from CIA and the military went through all the video data, they knew pretty quick it didn't come from Israel I am assuming. So myself I am going to believe them over over those that support the Jihadists. Unfortunately though the initial misinformation/propaganda narrative is enough proof for many out there.

For some out there, they will not believe the American narrative on it because they see the US as complicit in Israeli hostilities. Israel has a history of lying to hide their human rights violations and the US is seen as a co-conspirator to those actions by many in the region.

Now, who caused the explosion, I have no idea. However, the assessment of the blast area definitely does not point to an air strike but a ground based explosion. So there is that.

[Dill]

(10-18-2023, 09:23 PM)SladeX Wrote: The NYT downplayed the Holocaust for years… . Here is a balanced take.
https://teachingamericanhistory.org/blog/silence-in-the-storm-the-new-york-times-coverage-of-the-holocaust-during-wwii/
I leave it to you to determine if there is any antisemitism within their culture. Not a good look though.

The "downplay" in question occurred during the 1940s, right?

Not sure that's a comment on the present NYT "culture."

[GMDino]

Again...no misinformation.  Just not ALL the information.  Selectively edited to meet push a message their viewers already want to believe.

Here is how Fox News edited this part of the Biden’s answer https://t.co/URN35vYNSo pic.twitter.com/DMPKxaPX6B

— Acyn (@Acyn) October 19, 2023

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[SunsetBengal]

(10-19-2023, 02:04 PM)Dill Wrote: The "downplay" in question occurred during the 1940s, right?

Not sure that's a comment on the present NYT "culture."

To me, it just further illustrates that the NYT has a long history of antisemitism.

[Dill]

(10-18-2023, 09:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My OP was only meant to point out the disinformation being put out within minutes (not hours) Israel strike on hospital in Gaza kills 100's. Then Talib uses the misinformation and tweets it as fact to the world. Now we have American embassies facing violent protests in the middle east. We have a protest at the capital where Talib doubled down and blamed Israel.

The NYT has walked back their reporting, but the match was lit. Talib expands the propaganda versus setting the record straight to protesters today, she refuses to ever accept the facts.

Do you think the CNN (international news desk) and NYT retractions will make the damage go away. Hamas and other terrorists within Gaza are using them as human shields. My guess is they still think Israel attacked the hospital because CNN and NYT said they did as well as a US Congress Woman. The answer by many is to ignore it. That would be a huge mistake and exactly what a terrorist organization like Hamas wants.

This is a world disinformation article, a war of words Hamas wins when they bomb their own, but can get the media and politicians to say Israel did it. It amazes me people dismiss women being raped, kidnapped, babies killed and in some cases beheaded, babies kidnapped. People dancing and celebrating peace one minute and dead or kidnapped the next. They were not soldiers, they were citizens just like many of us. I hope people realize what happened in Israel can happen in the US. I hope people realize the 2nd amendment may save lives if a Hamas, Isis or terror group attacks the wrong family.

It is very unlikely that crowds protesting before US embassies throughout the Middle East are reacting to Tlaib and the NYT. Their own news sources, relying on staff at the bombed hospital, immediately put out the "Israel did it " version. 

Odd to hear you complaining about "disinformation" while asserting that people "dismiss women being raped, kidnapped, babies being killed . . . etc.," and then linking an attack in Israel to a 2nd Amendment to US home defense against ISIS or HAMAS.

This is a conflict which has been chronically under reported in the US, with very little balance. So I'm always a bit skeptical when people start complaining about "disinformation" during Arab-Israeli conflicts, especially if the people complaining have never made much effort to balance their own information intake.
"Accuracy," and judgment thereof, also requires some background knowledge.

[*pally*]

(10-19-2023, 12:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You going to actually address Luvnit's point now?  You really laid into him in the first two posts and his premise had a lot of weight behind it.  

if anything, the actual reporting was irrelevant to people's biases. It is not going to change anyone's mind or opinions.  The Arab world is not reading the New York Times for breaking news.  The NYT reported the story based on what was known at the time and even pointed out who claimed it. Subsequent reporting updated the story.  That's how breaking news works in this day and age.  

 Luvnit's point was mainstream media fanned the flames by deliberately lying and how dare they do that.  

My point concerning him remains the same...He only gets bothered when the media contradicts his views.  As long as the lies spewed by the "most trusted news channel" support his views everything remains hunky dory.  He either has no idea he is being lied to, doesn't care as long as he hears what he wants to hear, or lacks the critical thinking skills to discern truth from lies, which means that, for me, his opinion on what is or is not the truth is meaningless.

The comments of Representatives Talib and Omar have been called out by their fellow Democrats and House members.  They are 2 minor Congressmen who do not represent the views of the party as a whole.  However,  they DO represent many of the views of their heavily Islamic districts

[Dill]

(10-19-2023, 02:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To me, it just further illustrates that the NYT has a long history of antisemitism.

In the 1930s, many major news organizations were openly sympathetic to Hitler.
The most popular radio commentator of the time openly blaming Jews for US economic woes.
In '40s, many newspapers, along with other US institutions like corporations and
universities, restricted hiring of Jews.

The country is rather different on that score now. Has been for some time.

So I'm wondering what makes you think there is any reason to believe the NYT has been
"anti-semitic" in the last 30 years or so. I'm thinking it would be less so than most
news organizations.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-19-2023, 02:25 PM)Dill Wrote: So I'm wondering what makes you think there is any reason to believe the NYT has been
"anti-semitic" in the last 30 years or so. I'm thinking it would be less so than most
news organizations.

Are they currently writing editorials in support of Israel?

Are they publishing anything condemning the actions of Hamas on behalf of the Palestinians?

[Belsnickel]

(10-19-2023, 02:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Are they currently writing editorials in support of Israel?

Are they publishing anything condemning the actions of Hamas on behalf of the Palestinians?

You're conflating things, here. One can be against Israel's actions and not be anti-Semitic. There are a large number of Jews around the world that vehemently disagree with Israel's actions. Do not mistake being critical of Israel or not supporting their actions in this instance with being anti-Semitic. These are not the same things.

FWIW, the answer to your questions is yes. I just find the implication of your post concerning.

[Dill]

(10-19-2023, 02:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Are they currently writing editorials in support of Israel?
Are they publishing anything condemning the actions of Hamas on behalf of the Palestinians?

Seems to me that they do publish editorials in support of Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/09/opinion/israel-hamas-attack.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/opinion/israel-military-war.html

As far as "condemning the actions of Hamas," I'd rather that reporters reported what was happening
as accurately as possible first, and then contextualize it, adding what people might need to know of
the backstory to a current event. As in this example:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/technology/hamas-hostages-social-media.html

But to follow up on what Bels said, you seem to be expecting a news organization to take a side in this conflict,
and if they don't loudly take the Israeli side, then that would make them "anti-semitic." 

 Many Israelis have criticized their government's role in this war and no one (in US News) thinks they are "anti-semitic" or 
"defending Hamas" for that. But if US politicians or news commentators do the same, they can be so accused.
"Disinformation" seems to be the theme of this thread, and using the term anti-semitic to refer to anything other
than actual racial/ethnic hatred is likely contributing to the problem.

I'm sorry Sunset, but it seems that you are demanding the NYT shift from news to propaganda.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-19-2023, 02:59 PM)Dill Wrote: Seems to me that they do publish editorials in support of Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/09/opinion/israel-hamas-attack.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/opinion/israel-military-war.html

As far as "condemning the actions of Hamas," I'd rather that reporters reported what was happening
as accurately as possible first, and then contextualize it, adding what people might need to know of
the backstory to a current event. As in this example:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/technology/hamas-hostages-social-media.html

But to follow up on what Bels said, you seem to be expecting a news organization to take a side in this conflict,
and if they don't loudly take the Israeli side, then that would make them "anti-semitic." 

 Many Israelis have criticized their government's role in this war and no one (in US News) thinks they are "anti-semitic" or 
"defending Hamas" for that. But if US politicians or news commentators do the same, they can be so accused.
"Disinformation" seems to be the theme of this thread, and using the term anti-semitic to refer to anything other
than actual racial/ethnic hatred is likely contributing to the problem.

I'm sorry Sunset, but it seems that you are demanding the NYT shift from news to propaganda.

Thank you for searching and locating the articles to answer my question.  So then it appears to be resolved that NYT is not showing the appearance of any antisemitism.  With all of the recent headlines regarding wealthy donors cutting ties with the Ivy League Schools, I was curious as to weather a prominent Liberal voice like the NYT was taking the same attitude toward the situation as some of the academic institutions.  I will say that I am pleased to have learned this about the NYT, and will likely have a smidgen less skepticism when I see one of their pieces shared going forward.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-19-2023, 02:22 PM)pally Wrote: if anything, the actual reporting was irrelevant to people's biases. It is not going to change anyone's mind or opinions.  The Arab world is not reading the New York Times for breaking news.

Immaterial.  When the NYT's repeats Hamas propaganda they are not only feeding into the narrative that the IDF is responsible, they are justifying that view for millions.  You are correct that the Arab world does not get its news from the NYT.  You are also correct that the Arab world expects the US to side with Israel and thus views any US news with a jaundiced eye.  Where you are 100% incorrect is that this has no consequence.  Seeing as how the NYT repeated Hamas propaganda and ran a headline that heavily suggests it was factual they not only justified that view, they created a narrative that it's so obvious Israel did this that even the NTY reported it.

Quote:  The NYT reported the story based on what was known at the time and even pointed out who claimed it. Subsequent reporting updated the story.  That's how breaking news works in this day and age.  

No, the NYT's ran an inflammatory and completely unnecessary headline that promoted Hamas propaganda.  It's already been illustrated how a real headline should have read.  The NYT obviously agreed, considering they've changed the headline more than once.

Quote: Luvnit's point was mainstream media fanned the flames by deliberately lying and how dare they do that.  

Why don't we use his own words to judge that claim?

(10-18-2023, 06:19 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: To me, this is not a political biased question. It is a question of irresponsible journalism possibly causing harm all around the world. Within minutes of the explosion at the hospital in Gaza, the NYT reported a direct Hamas narrative, the Gaza hospital was hit by a rocket from Israel. Why not get the facts on the guilty party versus a rush (incorrect) to judgment.

Then the squad used their bad reporting and caused a ton of harm, not only in the US, but the world. We know Talib hates Jewish people so know her motivation. But why would NYT and CNN report as fact anything Hamas says without 100% verification.

There are protests all over the world due to propaganda from Hamas using US congress women, CNN and NYT as their mouth piece.

There appears to be indisputable evidence the rockets were fired from within Gaza, but sadly the damage is done and poor journalism is destroying the Israel reputation.

Lives will be lost in the coming days and weeks, some because of very bad journalism.

I don't see the term "deliberately lying" in that post.  I do see "irresponsible journalism".  Basically everything in the bolded and underlined sections is factual.  In no way does his post resemble your accusations about his claim.  In short, you are wrong, wholly wrong and attempted to dismiss his point based on whataboutism and a false premise.

Quote:My point concerning him remains the same...He only gets bothered when the media contradicts his views.  As long as the lies spewed by the "most trusted news channel" support his views everything remains hunky dory.  He either has no idea he is being lied to, doesn't care as long as he hears what he wants to hear, or lacks the critical thinking skills to discern truth from lies, which means that, for me, his opinion on what is or is not the truth is meaningless.

You're then attacking the poster and not their post.  You can view him any way you want, but his point was, is and will remain a valid one.  You did nothing to try and address it, you only attacked him for making it.  You could have absolutely called him out on his hypocrisy while still acknowledging he's got a point.  You chose not to do that.

Quote:The comments of Representatives Talib and Omar have been called out by their fellow Democrats and House members.  They are 2 minor Congressmen who do not represent the views of the party as a whole.  However,  they DO represent many of the views of their heavily Islamic districts

They are hardly two "minor" members of Congress.  They get tons of publicity.  There are numerous House members that literally no one here would recognize by name.  Neither of them are in that category.  As to the underlined, be careful, while you are correct there you'll get attacked for pointing it out.

[*pally*]

(10-19-2023, 05:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They are hardly two "minor" members of Congress.  They get tons of publicity.  There are numerous House members that literally no one here would recognize by name.  Neither of them are in that category.  As to the underlined, be careful, while you are correct there you'll get attacked for pointing it out.

They got "tons" of publicity from right-wing media who want to push their ideas as though they are mainstream Democrats which they are not.  They hold no leadership position, they are not brought out to speak for the Democratic caucus, and they are not insiders with leadership.  When they say stupid stuff they are called out by their colleagues.  So yes, they are minor members of Congress