Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-21-2023, 07:21 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Speaking of politics/partisanship, didn't the GOP just decline to censor Tlaib?  Obviously they want her continuing to spew her brand of hatred because they think it will gain them some votes.

I continue to be shocked that Libertarians can't break even 5% in any election.  I just cannot believe people keep voting for these self-interested jackasses in Washington.

I believe electing a Speaker needs to be done before a motion to censure can be made.  

[Dill]

(10-21-2023, 09:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I really dislike the waiving of the bloody shirt tactic.  But I'll make an exception to use your own BS against you.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2023/10/21/detroit-synagogue-president-found-dead-at-home-police-say/71272065007/
A Rabbi was stabbed to death in Tlaib's district today.  We have as much proof it was motivated by Tlaib's rhetoric as you had for blaming the right wing media for the death of a Palestinian child in deep red Chicago, so I have no doubt you'll be consistent and blame Tlaib for this woman's death.  Enjoy the rest of your weekend. 

How is my mention of a six-year-old boy's murder "BS"?  Police say his death was a consequence of the kind of hatred you continue to fan.

You are over-confidently wrong in your assumption we "have as much proof" that the Rabbi's murder was motivated by Tlaib's rhetoric. So far police have no motive in her death; they do in the boy's. Yet you are not waiting to find out before you link the death, not just to the current conflict, but to Tlaib specifically. 

This jump-to-conclusion is the kind of error you were all over the Times about. But they correct their errors. 

If this Rabbi was killed by someone heated up by "Tlaib's rhetroric," that doesn't somehow balance or justify the child's death or justify your jump-to-conclusion, or invalidate my position that stoking hate is a bad thing. I'll just expand that now to say that continuing to fan the flames of hatred is bad no matter is doing it or whom the object. 

                                             So stop it. 

Your link says: The motive for the killing was unknown, police said.

My link says: https://news.yahoo.com/funeral-held-chicago-area-muslim-134128051.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Prosecutors alleged at the hearing that Czuba grew angry about the war and concerned about his Muslim tenants after listening to conservative talk radio, the Chicago Sun-Times reported.

[Dill]

(10-21-2023, 02:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're really incapable of not blowing anything into a doctoral dissertation are you?  You're position is wrong on its face, you don't think a US congressperson spreading terrorist propaganda is harmful to US interests or endangers US lives.  Maybe it's because you doubt Hamas is a terrorist organization?
So, I'll ask point blank, as it's rather germane.  Do you think Hamas is a terrorist organization?

Sure, Hamas is a terrorist organization arising from dispossession and an illegal occupation which denies 5 million Palestinians basic human rights.

If Hamas were not a terrorist group, that would not make a difference in assessing a factually erroneous claim about who bombed the hospital. 
So the answer to your terrorist question is not "germane" to anything we've been discussing.
 
And for the second time, my position is not "a US congressperson spreading terrorist propaganda isn't harmful to US interests etc." 

My position is--If some group attacks Americans in the near future because of the current conflict, they won't be chanting "Because Israel bombed that hospital like Tlaib said!"

You were asked to explain why her comments should be more likely to incite violence than sending direct aid and troops to support their assault on the already besieged Gaza, and that after a decade of supporting policies which separate the Palestinian question from peace with Arab states.

If you cannot do that, then you ought to at least explain why you wish to continue hyping her remarks, and a corrected Times error, instead of discussing what would be the more likely motivation for such attacks--all while styling people who don't share your selective emphasis on rhetoric "rigid ideologues."

[GMDino]

(10-21-2023, 09:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I really dislike the waiving of the bloody shirt tactic.  But I'll make an exception to use your own BS against you.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2023/10/21/detroit-synagogue-president-found-dead-at-home-police-say/71272065007/

A Rabbi was stabbed to death in Tlaib's district today.  We have as much proof it was motivated by Tlaib's rhetoric as you had for blaming the right wing media for the death of a Palestinian child in deep red Chicago, so I have no doubt you'll be consistent and blame Tlaib for this woman's death.  Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

This was already shared.  

In that story, which was shared in it's entirety, it said:

Quote:“Detectives were able to determine that both victims in this brutal attack were targeted by the suspect due to them being Muslims and the on-going Middle Eastern conflict involving Hamas and the Israelis,” the statement said.


...


[url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/candidates/joe-biden-2024/?itid=lk_inline_manual_14][/url]President Biden said in a statement that he was “sickened” to hear of the deadly attack in Illinois, which “stands against our fundamental values: freedom from fear for how we pray, what we believe, and who we are.”


“The child’s Palestinian Muslim family came to America seeking what we all seek — a refuge to live, learn, and pray in peace,” the White House statement said, calling for Americans to “reject Islamophobia and all forms of bigotry and hatred.

...


Authorities gave few details about Czuba. As news of his arrest spread, people who live nearby said in community forums on Facebook that Czuba had long alarmed residents with yard signs telegraphing his “extreme” views. One woman wrote that she had alerted local officials about the “unhinged” man. The Post contacted the woman seeking details but did not receive an immediate reply.




The Palestinian tenants had seen the signs but did not understand their symbolism and had not experienced the landlord’s extremist side until recently, said Yousef Hannon, an uncle and family spokesman who was sitting with the slain child’s father, Odai Alfayoumi, during a phone interview.

We DO know what caused that senseless act of violence...in the other act of senseless violence, the one you two shared, they do not yet as they don't know who the killer is.


I'm no expert in police procedure but I believe that is the proper way to go forward with an investigation.  I'm sure they are making assumptions, as you and Luvnit are, but I doubt they are doing it just because it fits their preferred political narrative.  At least I hope so.


Tying to Tlaib is a long shot for you two but we know why it would be so important for her to be the "cause" of a murder.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-22-2023, 09:52 AM)Dill Wrote: How is my mention of a six-year-old boy's murder "BS"?  Police say his death was a consequence of the kind of hatred you continue to fan.

Hatred I continue to fan?  AHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Give me one, just one, example of me fanning hatred.  The depths you won't sink to to win an internet argument.  

Quote:You are over-confidently wrong in your assumption we "have as much proof" that the Rabbi's murder was motivated by Tlaib's rhetoric. So far police have no motive in her death; they do in the boy's. Yet you are not waiting to find out before you link the death, not just to the current conflict, but to Tlaib specifically. 

The man killing the by because he's Islamic is not proof that "right wing media" was the genesis of his hatred, as you claimed.  So yes, we have exactly as much proof.

Quote:This jump-to-conclusion is the kind of error you were all over the Times about. But they correct their errors. 

If this Rabbi was killed by someone heated up by "Tlaib's rhetroric," that doesn't somehow balance or justify the child's death or justify your jump-to-conclusion, or invalidate my position that stoking hate is a bad thing. I'll just expand that now to say that continuing to fan the flames of hatred is bad no matter is doing it or whom the object. 

As to the underlined, literally the only person making that comparison is YOU.  Absolutely no one made this point, alluded to it or even insinuated it.  You've gone from disingenuous to flat out lying to paint people who disagree wiht you as pro child murder.  The only people who are pro child murder is Hamas, you know the terrorist group that Tlaib refuses to denounce.

                                        

Quote:    So stop it. 

Yes, stop lying about what other people have said to show them in a bad light.

Quote:Your link says: The motive for the killing was unknown, police said.

My link says: https://news.yahoo.com/funeral-held-chicago-area-muslim-134128051.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Prosecutors alleged at the hearing that Czuba grew angry about the war and concerned about his Muslim tenants after listening to conservative talk radio, the Chicago Sun-Times reported.

How is one talk show, "right wing media" as a whole, as you asserted?  Also, and this isn't difficult for an adult to understand, this guy had a lot of hatred in him already if he can listen to a right wing talk show and get "I should murder a six year old child" out of it.  I'll stick to holding the adult responsible for their actions and nto the talk show.  You're trying to score political points off a child's death.  It's sickening.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-22-2023, 10:58 AM)Dill Wrote: Sure, Hamas is a terrorist organization arising from dispossession and an illegal occupation which denies 5 million Palestinians basic human rights.

If Hamas were not a terrorist group, that would not make a difference in assessing a factually erroneous claim about who bombed the hospital. 
So the answer to your terrorist question is not "germane" to anything we've been discussing.
 
And for the second time, my position is not "a US congressperson spreading terrorist propaganda isn't harmful to US interests etc." 

My position is--If some group attacks Americans in the near future because of the current conflict, they won't be chanting "Because Israel bombed that hospital like Tlaib said!"

You were asked to explain why her comments should be more likely to incite violence than sending direct aid and troops to support their assault on the already besieged Gaza, and that after a decade of supporting policies which separate the Palestinian question from peace with Arab states.

If you cannot do that, then you ought to at least explain why you wish to continue hyping her remarks, and a corrected Times error, instead of discussing what would be the more likely motivation for such attacks--all while styling people who don't share your selective emphasis on rhetoric "rigid ideologues."

It's been done numerous times in this thread.  A high profile congressperson continuing to spread terrorist propaganda despite it being debunked by US intelligence is a huge PR and propaganda win for Hamas, and only further legitimizes them.  If you can't wrap your mind around that obvious truth then go back to the kids table and let the adults talk in peace.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-22-2023, 12:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: This was already shared.  

In that story, which was shared in it's entirety, it said:




We DO know what caused that senseless act of violence...in the other act of senseless violence, the one you two shared, they do not yet as they don't know who the killer is.

Yeah we do, an unhinged single adult full of hate.  End of story.  The only person trying to score points off this poor child's death is your buddy.

Quote:I'm no expert in police procedure but I believe that is the proper way to go forward with an investigation.  I'm sure they are making assumptions, as you and Luvnit are, but I doubt they are doing it just because it fits their preferred political narrative.  At least I hope so.


Tying to Tlaib is a long shot for you two but we know why it would be so important for her to be the "cause" of a murder.

My point, for those able to read and comprehend, is that it doesn't even matter if this killer was directly inspired by Tlaib.  At the end of the day, unless they are a juvenile or legally insane, they are an adult responsible for their own actions.  I'll reiterate, the only person using the murder of another to try and score points in this argument is Dill.  I'm pointing out how absurd his logic is and how macabre, and honestly disturbing, his motivations must be to use a child's death to try and win an internet argument.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Looks like the NYT itself has a different opinion to the far lefties.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/23/gaza-hospital-new-york-times-00122986

The New York Times walked back its initial coverage on the explosion that killed hundreds of Palestinians at a Gaza Strip hospital last week, saying in an editors’ note that the newspaper “relied too heavily on claims” made by the Hamas militant group.


“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,” reads the Times’ editors’ note published on Monday. Early coverage “relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified.”

The newspaper’s coverage had a clear impact, according to the note: “The report left readers with an incorrect impression about what was known and how credible the account was.”

“Given the sensitive nature of the news during a widening conflict, and the prominent promotion it received, Times editors should have taken more care with the initial presentation, and been more explicit about what information could be verified,”

So the NYT itself notes that their reporting "had a clear impact". But I guess some here know better. Still waiting on Tlaib to walk back her claim that Israel did this. I guess being a mouthpiece for a terrorist organization is ok by her.

Also, is posting this "fanning the flames of hatred?" I really need to know.

[GMDino]

(10-23-2023, 05:39 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Looks like the NYT itself has a different opinion to the far lefties.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/23/gaza-hospital-new-york-times-00122986

The New York Times walked back its initial coverage on the explosion that killed hundreds of Palestinians at a Gaza Strip hospital last week, saying in an editors’ note that the newspaper “relied too heavily on claims” made by the Hamas militant group.


“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,” reads the Times’ editors’ note published on Monday. Early coverage “relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified.”

The newspaper’s coverage had a clear impact, according to the note: “The report left readers with an incorrect impression about what was known and how credible the account was.”

“Given the sensitive nature of the news during a widening conflict, and the prominent promotion it received, Times editors should have taken more care with the initial presentation, and been more explicit about what information could be verified,”

So the NYT itself notes that their reporting "had a clear impact".  But I guess some here know better.  Still waiting on Tlaib to walk back her claim that Israel did this.  I guess being a mouthpiece for a terrorist organization is ok by her.  

Also, is posting this "fanning the flames of hatred?"  I really need to know.

The coverage having "clear impact" is the opinion of the politico writer...unless it's in the actual editor's note and they just chose not to quote it.

Do you have the note?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-23-2023, 06:22 PM)GMDino Wrote: The coverage having "clear impact" is the opinion of the politico writer...unless it's in the actual editor's note and they just chose not to quote it.

Do you have the note?

Actually (   ), you are correct.  That wasn't very clear given the way it was written.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/pageoneplus/editors-note-gaza-hospital-coverage.html

Regardless, the point remains.

[Dill]

(10-22-2023, 12:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: We DO know what caused that senseless act of violence...in the other act of senseless violence, the one you two shared, they do not yet as they don't know who the killer is.
Tying to Tlaib is a long shot for you two but we know why it would be so important for her to be the "cause" of a murder.

We know that the prosecutor in one case assigned the cause to "Muslim hate" whipped up by right wing radio. 
And doesn't say it was only one program. (As if it would be only one!)

We know that in the Rabbi's case they are pursuing the murderer but have taken pains to state that they see,
as yet, NO CONNECTION to her death and politics.

So apparently we do have more proof of political motivation in one case than the other. 
(Or maybe there is a special perspective from which evidence still looks "equal," or simply doesn't count in the one case
and isn't needed in the other?)

Anyway, so what if we were right about that? And so what if right wing agitprop about the war did push Czuba to kill a child?

If he's an adult and responsible for his actions, then even if right wing media had a "clear impact" on him, it's still HIM,
not right wing media, that we should hold accountable. Right?

He could have already HAD a lot of hate for "Muslims" from somewhere else besides programming that stokes it every day.   

[Dill]

(10-22-2023, 01:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You were asked to explain why her comments should be more likely to incite violence than sending direct aid and troops to support their assault on the already besieged Gaza, and that after a decade of supporting policies which separate the Palestinian question from peace with Arab states.
If you cannot do that, then you ought to at least explain why you wish to continue hyping her remarks, and a corrected Times error, instead of discussing what would be the more likely motivation for such attacks--all while styling people who don't share your selective emphasis on rhetoric "rigid ideologues."

It's been done numerous times in this thread.  A high profile congressperson continuing to spread terrorist propaganda despite it being debunked by US intelligence is a huge PR and propaganda win for Hamas, and only further legitimizes them.  If you can't wrap your mind around that obvious truth then go back to the kids table and let the adults talk in peace.

No. It hasn't been done once.

You merely assert that your (and Luvnit's) speculative connection between Tlaib and ME violence is "obvious" and "indubitable."
Again you are deploying the TACTIC. You merely assert something easily disputable is obviously true, and then
when asked to prove it, you claim "it's already been done." If I ask for post number and statement where
this occurred, I won't get it. Commands to "wrap your mind around that obvious truth" are just
performance  and a poor substitute for reasoned evidence.

NEITHER of you has explained why Tlaib's comments should prompt more violence than a US declaration of support for Israel, 
and aid sent so they can carry out the incursion in Gaza--along with decades of enabling occupation.

And neither can explain why you'd rather talk about Tlaib than assess other very real and effective threats.

Why should her speech produce more violence in the ME than a Fox News segment showing Tom Cotton telling Israel to 
"bounce the rubble" and not to let empathy for civilians get in the way? Was someone there on the fence about this conflict and 
suddenly tipped to Hamas, NOT because the AP or Al Jazeera or the WSJ or Al Arabiya or any of the many news organizations 
reported too soon--but because of Tlaib?

Does Hamas even know of its "huge PR win"? And how are you measuring it?  Has it changed a vote or a policy somewhere? 
Was someone assassinated because of it? Has a poll somewhere risen in Hamas' favor? So far, it looks like this tremendous effect 
you impute to Tlaib is largely in your minds; seems rather like you've an absence of knowledge about political infrastructure in
the Middle East and this speculated hyperbolic effect just expanded to fill that vacuum.

Tlaib's comments are only important in this country right now, for whatever leverage they give Republicans to diminish Dem's power to shape policy and win votes.  Any quick news search will reveal that back and forth, a struggle for the moral high ground and the power to frame the next news cycle.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-23-2023, 11:58 PM)Dill Wrote: We know that the prosecutor in one case assigned the cause to "Muslim hate" whipped up by right wing radio. 
And doesn't say it was only one program. (As if it would be only one!)

It's so cute when you try and commiserate.  You'll always have one person to reinforce your flawed perspective! 

Quote:We know that in the Rabbi's case they are pursuing the murderer but have taken pains to state that they see,
as yet, NO CONNECTION to her death and politics.

Indeed, but not in the other case where it was clearly the awful and naughty right wing radio!  But remember kids, repeating propaganda, like Tlaib does, is not a problem, unless it's right wing radio, which makes otherwise reasonable people murder children!

Quote:So apparently we do have more proof of political motivation in one case than the other. 
(Or maybe there is a special perspective from which evidence still looks "equal," or simply doesn't count in the one case
and isn't needed in the other?)

You clearly have no idea how much this blurb actually works against you.

Quote:Anyway, so what if we were right about that? And so what if right wing agitprop about the war did push Czuba to kill a child?

Yeah, it didn't.  Unless "right wing radio" is a psyop hither-to-for unheard of in human history.

Quote:If he's an adult and responsible for his actions, then even if right wing media had a "clear impact" on him, it's still HIM,
not right wing media, that we should hold accountable. Right?

Did it have a "clear impact" on him?  The DA said it did, right?  After all the DA is a clinically trained forensic psychiatrist, right?!?  But also, simultaneously, repeating Hamas propaganda has zero affect on anyone, anywhere, right?!

Quote:He could have already HAD a lot of hate for "Muslims" from somewhere else besides programming that stokes it every day.   

Not possible.  It's not like there was Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, and ISIS, and Boko Haram and Hezbollah, and Hamas, and Abu Sayyaf, and Ansar Al Sharia and the state sponsor of terrorism, Iran before that.  No, it was solely due to right wing radio!  Only right wing radio could produce such a profound effect.  Also, since you're a demagogue who otherwise would exploit this, this in no way excuses this vile monster's murder of a child.  Just like Hamas's murders and rapes, there is no excuse for it.  But it does shed a light on your asinine assertion that this vile killer's motivation was solely rooted in "right wing radio."  Like most pathologies, there is more than one source.  Even though you'd never acknowledge a source that doesn't aid your perception of events.  


Sincerely, could you be more of an apologist/excuser of religious extremism/terrorism?

[Dill]

(10-24-2023, 12:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's so cute when you try and commiserate.  You'll always have one person to reinforce your flawed perspective! 
Indeed, but not in the other case where it was clearly the awful and naughty right wing radio!  But remember kids, repeating propaganda, like Tlaib does, is not a problem, unless it's right wing radio, which makes otherwise reasonable people murder children!
You clearly have no idea how much this blurb actually works against you.
Yeah, it didn't.  Unless "right wing radio" is a psyop hither-to-for unheard of in human history.
Did it have a "clear impact" on him?  The DA said it did, right?  After all the DA is a clinically trained forensic psychiatrist, right?!?

Looks like you've flipped your own argument here. YOU were the one certain that Tlaib repeating Hamas propaganda put lives in danger.
Everything was "indubitable" and "obvious" and no further questioning/evaluation/evidence needed.

But when the spotlight is on right wing media, the rules change quickly.

The DA's not a forensic psychiatrist. Right wing radio can't stoke hate to motivate killing unless it is a psy-op.
ISIS TALIBAN ALQAEDA . . .AND IRAN were there before right wing media rolled them all into ISLAM.
So no more evidence of politics in the Chicago case, which has a suspect and motive, 
than in the Detroit murder of a Rabbi, which has neither. Indubitably obvious. 

This from the guy who loves to watch ideologues "twist themselves into pretzels."

(10-24-2023, 12:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Also, since you're a demagogue who otherwise would exploit this, this in no way excuses this vile monster's murder of a child.  Just like Hamas's murders and rapes, there is no excuse for it.  But it does shed a light on your asinine assertion that this vile killer's motivation was solely rooted in "right wing radio."  Like most pathologies, there is more than one source.  

LOL unless we are talking about the New York Times.

Your repeated mention of Hamas murder and rape is intended to . . . what? Insure that we distinguish between civilians and combatants?
Gain some realistic idea of causes and likely consequences before jumping into another war in the Middle East?
But my mention of a politically motivated crime to warn against heated rhetoric directed at an ethnic group is "exploitation"?

And what sort of demagogue won't call people disgusting "liars" or "savages" or an "apologist for extremists,"
or pivot from sober policy questions into serial accusation and deflection? Not one worth his salt, I should think.

(10-24-2023, 12:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Even though you'd never acknowledge a source that doesn't aid your perception of events. 

This alludes to the primary difference between us.  I actually engage deeply with sources that don't "aid [my] perception of events." 
You do not.  

(10-24-2023, 12:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But also, simultaneously, repeating Hamas propaganda has zero affect on anyone, anywhere, right?!
It's not like there was Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, and ISIS, and Boko Haram and Hezbollah, and Hamas, and Abu Sayyaf, and Ansar Al Sharia and the state sponsor of terrorism, Iran before that.  No, it was solely due to right wing radio!  Only right wing radio could produce such a profound effect. . . .
Sincerely, could you be more of an apologist/excuser of religious extremism/terrorism?

What a mess. How did the imagined claim that "Hamas propaganda has zero affect [sic] on anyone anywhere" get in there?
Or the claim that a child-murderer was "solely" be influenced by right wing radio? 

Looks like you impute claims to me I did not make in order to "sincerely" make me an "apologist/excuser of religious extremism/terrorism," 
and this not two days after you twisted and misconstrued my accurate claim that Luvnit said Tlaib CAUSED damage in the ME, while
telling him how much you "loathe people's arguments being deliberately twisted and misconstrued."  

Why not slow down and work through posts carefully and pose questions before initiating these cycles of spiraling personal attack? 
Stop claiming I'm an "excuser of religious extremism" who has accused you of being "pro child murder." Stop excusing this over-the-top  
rhetoric which risks shutting down yet another thread. 

And yes I still noticed --You are not explaining why Tlaib's comments should create more risk to US interests than current US policy for supporting the war on Gaza. "Clear impact" falls far short of that. The guy who spent the first two pages of this thread wondering why "far lefties" cannot address actual points made needs to put up or shut up.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-24-2023, 03:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Looks like you've flipped your own argument here. YOU were the one certain that Tlaib repeating Hamas propaganda put lives in danger.
Everything was "indubitable" and "obvious" and no further questioning/evaluation/evidence needed.

But when the spotlight is on right wing media, the rules change quickly.

The DA's not a forensic psychiatrist. Right wing radio can't stoke hate to motivate killing unless it is a psy-op.
ISIS TALIBAN ALQAEDA . . .AND IRAN were there before right wing media rolled them all into ISLAM.
So no more evidence of politics in the Chicago case, which has a suspect and motive, 
than in the Detroit murder of a Rabbi, which has neither. Indubitably obvious. 

This from the guy who loves to watch ideologues "twist themselves into pretzels."


LOL unless we are talking about the New York Times.

Your repeated mention of Hamas murder and rape is intended to . . . what? Insure that we distinguish between civilians and combatants?
Gain some realistic idea of causes and likely consequences before jumping into another war in the Middle East?
But my mention of a politically motivated crime to warn against heated rhetoric directed at an ethnic group is "exploitation"?

And what sort of demagogue won't call people disgusting "liars" or "savages" or an "apologist for extremists,"
or pivot from sober policy questions into serial accusation and deflection? Not one worth his salt, I should think.


This alludes to the primary difference between us.  I actually engage deeply with sources that don't "aid [my] perception of events." 
You do not.  


What a mess. How did the imagined claim that "Hamas propaganda has zero affect [sic] on anyone anywhere" get in there?
Or the claim that a child-murderer was "solely" be influenced by right wing radio? 

Looks like you impute claims to me I did not make in order to "sincerely" make me an "apologist/excuser of religious extremism/terrorism," 
and this not two days after you twisted and misconstrued my accurate claim that Luvnit said Tlaib CAUSED damage in the ME, while
telling him how much you "loathe people's arguments being deliberately twisted and misconstrued."  

Why not slow down and work through posts carefully and pose questions before initiating these cycles of spiraling personal attack? 
Stop claiming I'm an "excuser of religious extremism" who has accused you of being "pro child murder." Stop excusing this over-the-top  
rhetoric which risks shutting down yet another thread. 

And yes I still noticed --You are not explaining why Tlaib's comments should create more risk to US interests than current US policy for supporting the war on Gaza. "Clear impact" falls far short of that. The guy who spent the first two pages of this thread wondering why "far lefties" cannot address actual points made needs to put up or shut up.

Let's set all your pedantry and obfuscation aside.  I'll leave it at this.  Say we accept your, IMO very flawed, premise that "right wing media" radicalized a man to kill a poor child.  Starting with 10/07/23 as our beginning point, how many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people carried out similar crimes after being radicalized by the Koran?

Didn't think this position through very well, did you?

As for the rest, we're firmly back in Dill's circuitous argument zone so I'm good.  Don't bother posting about how I can't address your points, no one buys that.  I'm just not going to bother dissecting what passes for your argument so you can then deliberately misconstrue and twist what I say, making your exact same points over and over.  You're habits are far too well known here.

[Luvnit2]

I think the proof of poor reporting by AP, NYT, CNN, Talaib and many other people and sources is what happened quickly after those said Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. Riots broke out all over the world. Sadly, NYT walking it back now means little, the damage was done.

What do we know today? We know it was a rocket launched near a hospital in GAZA THAT MISFIRED AND ENDED UP IN THE PARKING LOT (NOT HOSPITAL) OF THE HOSPITAL KILLING A LOT LESS THAN THE FIRST REPORT OF HUNDREDS KILLED.

TALAIB CONTINUES TO LIE AND USE HAMMAS PROPAGANDA.

Why? Is it fair to assume based on the latest tirade against Jews and prior Anti - Semitic comments she hates Jews. I say yes, but again it is an opinion just like many wrongly accuse Trump of inciting the actions on Jan.6, 2021.

Do her comments incite muslims and Palestinians to attack people in Israel (Jews) and around the world? That will never be proven, but let's all agree her comments did nothing to help Israel or the people of Israel.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-24-2023, 11:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think the proof of poor reporting by AP, NYT, CNN, Talaib and many other people and sources is what happened quickly after those said Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. Riots broke out all over the world. Sadly, NYT walking it back now means little, the damage was done.

What do we know today? We know it was a rocket launched near a hospital in GAZA THAT MISFIRED AND ENDED UP IN THE PARKING LOT (NOT HOSPITAL) OF THE HOSPITAL KILLING A LOT LESS THAN THE FIRST REPORT OF HUNDREDS KILLED.

TALAIB CONTINUES TO LIE AND USE HAMMAS PROPAGANDA.

Why? Is it fair to assume based on the latest tirade against Jews and prior Anti - Semitic comments she hates Jews. I say yes, but again it is an opinion just like many wrongly accuse Trump of inciting the actions on Jan.6, 2021.

Do her comments incite muslims and Palestinians to attack people in Israel (Jews) and around the world? That will never be proven, but let's all agree her comments did nothing to help Israel or the people of Israel.

The people asking for proof that Tlaib's words have had an impact are inane.  She legitimized Hamas propaganda, that's damaging and asking for proof of said damage is idiotic.  Mind, these are the exact same people who said Trump meeting with Kim "legitimized" North Korea on the world stage.  Partisan ideologues have zero issue harboring such contradictory positions.

She's still asking for an "independent investigation" btw.  US intelligence isn't enough for her because Iraq and all.

https://www.newsweek.com/rashida-tlaib-refuses-back-down-1837183

She still hasn't condemned Hamas either.  No wonder Dill defends her.

[Dill]

(10-24-2023, 11:20 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Let's set all your pedantry and obfuscation aside.  I'll leave it at this.  Say we accept your, IMO very flawed, premise that "right wing media" radicalized a man to kill a poor child.  Starting with 10/07/23 as our beginning point, how many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people carried out similar crimes after being radicalized by the Koran?

Didn't think this position through very well, did you?

As for the rest, we're firmly back in Dill's circuitous argument zone so I'm good.  Don't bother posting about how I can't address your points, no one buys that.  I'm just not going to bother dissecting what passes for your argument so you can then deliberately misconstrue and twist what I say, making your exact same points over and over.  You're habits are far too well known here.

LOL My "habit" involves quoting you against yourself--For the second time on this thread alone.
And it flags your "habit" of making unsupported assertions and then, when challenged,
ever after claiming "I've already addressed that and I'm not going to repeat myself."
I'll bet some of "us" would surely like to see how you right that ship, rather than just abandon it. 

?? As for the bolded, you have not explained why my premise is flawed. It's good enough for a prosecutor. 
Remember my most common complaint is that you simply assert conclusions with out proof.
You want to avoid all that "pedantry" and "circuitous logic" others just call "evidence" and "logic."

How many people has the Qu'ran radicalized to kill children since 10/07/23? 
None that I am aware of, but you wonder if "hundreds of thousands" have carried out similar crimes?
I suspect there's another "everyone-knows-so-I-don't-have-to-prove-it" type claim hiding in there. 
You aren't going to repeat the claim with evidence because I'll "twist" what you say by quoting you.

Either way, I'm happy to further examine this analogy between the Qu'ran and right wing media,
which you implicitly claim to have " thought through."  

[Dill]

(10-24-2023, 11:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think the proof of poor reporting by AP, NYT, CNN, Talaib and many other people and sources is what happened quickly after those said Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. Riots broke out all over the world. Sadly, NYT walking it back now means little, the damage was done.

What do we know today? We know it was a rocket launched near a hospital in GAZA THAT MISFIRED AND ENDED UP IN THE PARKING LOT (NOT HOSPITAL) OF THE HOSPITAL KILLING A LOT LESS THAN THE FIRST REPORT OF HUNDREDS KILLED.

TALAIB CONTINUES TO LIE AND USE HAMMAS PROPAGANDA.

Why? Is it fair to assume based on the latest tirade against Jews and prior Anti - Semitic comments she hates Jews. I say yes, but again it is an opinion just like many wrongly accuse Trump of inciting the actions on Jan.6, 2021.

Do her comments incite muslims and Palestinians to attack people in Israel (Jews) and around the world? That will never be proven, but let's all agree her comments did nothing to help Israel or the people of Israel.

Looks like you are being a little more careful. I'm not aware of Tlaib's "anti-semitic" comments. Maybe you could explain what you are referring to.

I agree her comments did nothing to help the people of Israel. She called for a cease fire and both sides are ignoring her.
She has always been more about helping Palestinians and innocent civilians on all sides.

Seems like the poor reporting charge goes to almost every news organization, though it seems most stated where their information came from.
And it seems to have mostly been hospital authorities. An easy error to make while Israel is bombing Gaza. More to come though, right?

Here's a source you might like that goes over the reactions of various news and government organizations pretty well:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/governments-and-international-organizations-leave-the-record-uncorrected

[Dill]

(10-24-2023, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The people asking for proof that Tlaib's words have had an impact are inane.  She legitimized Hamas propaganda, that's damaging and asking for proof of said damage is idiotic.  Mind, these are the exact same people who said Trump meeting with Kim "legitimized" North Korea on the world stage.  Partisan ideologues have zero issue harboring such contradictory positions.

She's still asking for an "independent investigation" btw.  US intelligence isn't enough for her because Iraq and all.

https://www.newsweek.com/rashida-tlaib-refuses-back-down-1837183

She still hasn't condemned Hamas either.  No wonder Dill defends her.

Another big difference between us.

If I claimed Trump legitimized Kim, I'd be ready to explain what counted as evidence for that.

You've been asked what is the measure of damage for Tlaib's statements. 
If you had such you'd be offering it, rather than attacking the questioner.

Tlaib has said the Hamas committed war crimes. That sounds like condemnation.

And do I support Hamas now too? Sure you know what a "partisan ideologue" is?