Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation

[Luvnit2]

(10-24-2023, 08:53 PM)Dill Wrote: Looks like you are being a little more careful. I'm not aware of Tlaib's "anti-semitic" comments. Maybe you could explain what you are referring to.

I agree her comments did nothing to help the people of Israel. She called for a cease fire and both sides are ignoring her.
She has always been more about helping Palestinians and innocent civilians on all sides.

Seems like the poor reporting charge goes to almost every news organization, though it seems most stated where their information came from.
And it seems to have mostly been hospital authorities. An easy error to make while Israel is bombing Gaza. More to come though, right?

Here's a source you might like that goes over the reactions of various news and government organizations pretty well:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/governments-and-international-organizations-leave-the-record-uncorrected

Here is 2021
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-leaders-condemn-tlaibs-antisemitic-dog-whistle-in-recent-comments/

Here is result of recent Talaib comments and her false narrative Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. BTW..she has tripled down and after Biden admin. found proof no missiles were fired from Israel near the hospital, but in fact were fired inside Gaza close to a hospital, she continued to blame Israel.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/jews-respond-new-york-times-initial-report-gaza-hospital-explosion-harassed-abused
Jews respond to New York Times initial report on Gaza hospital explosion: ‘Harassed and abused because of it’
Jews say they feel unsafe following initial bias coverage of Gaza hospital blast
Kassy Dillon By Kassy Dillon Fox News
Published October 24, 2023 5:00pm EDT

Talaib used initial story that generated from AP, CNN, NYT and others that said Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza that killed over 500 people. It was a story that source was Hamas and was never vetted by any of the news organizations for accuracy prior to reporting on it.

I find it very hard to believe you did no resource and had no clue Democrats have condemned her for Anti-Semitism. 
https://www.newsweek.com/congressman-rips-democrats-tlaib-bush-comments-hamas-attack-1833217

FYI, he is Democrat from NY.
"Shame on anyone who glorifies as 'resistance' the largest single-day mass murder of Jews since the Holocaust," Torres added. "It is reprehensible and repulsive."


Talaib also lied and incited a riot that resulted in 300 arrests in the Capital building. She said Israel was responsible for the rocket/missle that hit a Gaza hospital killing innocent children, crying and making a huge scene.


But hey, keep supporting her and the squad's position. Keep not looking for anything she has done or said.

[Luvnit2]

https://www.foxnews.com/media/new-york-times-internal-slack-messages-journalists-pushed-back-gaza-hospital

It appears NYT was cautioned by reporters, but printed headline anyway fueling with others chaos and riots around the world. Here is a portion of the article quoting a NYT columnist. How many of these failed rockets inside Gaza have killed innocent people? Hamas is killing/eating their own and many blame Israel. Very sad.

New York Times columnist Thomas L. Friedman dinged his paper for its coverage of the story in a podcast appearance on Friday, saying a "newspaper we know very well" was among those that credulously spread the Hamas framing.

"Islamic Jihad may have achieved its greatest P.R. victory in this war by blowing up its own hospital — inadvertently, by the way," he said. "By all evidence, they launched a part of a missile barrage toward Israel, and as often happens, one of their rockets failed and landed in the parking lot of this hospital. It immediately went around the world. Headlines everywhere — Israel attacks hospital — including in a newspaper that we know very well. And by the time the truth had a chance to put its shoes on, this inflamed the entire Arab world."

[Luvnit2]

I keep hearing how Palestinians in Gaza have been treated unfairly by Israel, yet when I do research I see it is Gaza's terrorist group firing rockets first at Israel without provocation. Also, the rockets made and fired into Israel are not accurate so chance of killing innocent civilians is highly at risk. Please fell free to counter facts of how Israeli killed Palestinians for no reason. I also understand prior to October 7, 2023, tens of thousands of Palestinians crosse into Israel to work. I just don't see Israel being the aggressor in this conflict.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/08/06/rockets-gaza/harm-civilians-palestinian-armed-groups-rocket-attacks
Since 2001, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have fired thousands of rockets deliberately or indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel. Such attacks virtually stopped during a ceasefire that began in June 2008 but escalated in November 2008 after an Israeli military incursion into Gaza. The rocket attacks continued during and since Israel’s three-week-long military offensive in Gaza that began on December 27.

Palestinian rocket attacks – which have killed three Israeli civilians and wounded dozens of others since November – are an ongoing threat to the nearly 800,000 Israeli civilians who live and work in range of the rockets. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have sought to justify the attacks as appropriate reprisals for Israeli military operations and the ongoing blockade against Gaza, and as a lawful response to the Israeli occupation of Gaza. As noted below, international humanitarian law (the “laws of war”) does not support these asserted justifications.
While Hamas has at times significantly decreased the level of rocket fire from Gaza, including by pressuring other armed groups to stop unauthorized attacks, it has taken no apparent action to prosecute or otherwise hold accountable Hamas forces or other Palestinian armed groups for launching unlawful rocket attacks against Israeli civilian areas.

The rockets fired by Hamas and other armed groups are primarily locally made “Qassam” rockets, with a range of 16 kilometers. A smaller number are Soviet-designed “Grad” rockets, with a 21-kilometer range. The rockets have hit Israeli cities and towns close to the 1949 armistice line between Gaza and Israel, primarily Sderot; in 2008, rockets also struck Ashkelon and Netivot. Since late December 2008, some longer-range rockets have struck as far as 40 kilometers inside Israel, including, for the first time, the cities of Beer Sheva and Ashdod.
None of these rockets can be reliably aimed. Under international humanitarian law applicable to the fighting between Palestinian armed groups and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures. Individuals who willfully authorize or carry out deliberate or indiscriminate attacks against civilians are committing war crimes.

The rocket attacks have caused civilian casualties and property damage. Civilian structures damaged in recent attacks include a kindergarten, a synagogue and private homes. An Israeli early warning siren system, which gives civilians roughly 10 to 45 seconds to find cover in prepared shelters, depending on their distance from the launch site in Gaza, has undoubtedly limited the number of civilian casualties. However, the repeated attacks have, over months and even years, taken a psychological toll on the population in areas close to Gaza. The laws of war prohibit attacks the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population. Because of the rocket attacks, thousands of people have moved away from frequently targeted areas such as Sderot municipality.

The rocket attacks have also placed civilians in Gaza at risk. The unpredictable nature of the crude rockets has meant that rockets have struck areas not only inside Israel but also inside Gaza; on December 26 a rocket hit a house in Beit Lahiya, killing two Palestinian girls, ages 5 and 12. In addition, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have frequently violated the laws of war by firing rockets from within populated areas. In doing so, they failed to take all feasible precautions to avoid placing military targets within densely populated areas, such as by removing civilians under their control from the vicinity of military targets, and protecting civilians from the danger resulting from military operations.

The Israeli government said the military offensive in Gaza that began on December 27, 2008, which it called “Operation Cast Lead,” was intended to destroy the ability of Palestinian armed groups in Gaza to fire rockets into Israel. The armed groups have fired thousands of rockets at Israel since 2001, killing 15 civilians inside Israel. At least 1,500 rockets were fired in 2008 alone. These attacks virtually stopped during a six-month ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that went into effect on June 19, 2008, but resumed after Israeli forces killed six Palestinian fighters during an incursion into Gaza on November 4, 2008. After major military operations ended on January 18, 2009, Palestinian armed groups in Gaza continued to fire rockets into Israel, although in gradually reduced numbers.

Palestinian armed groups in Gaza that have claimed responsibility for firing rockets into Israel include Hamas’s armed wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades, the Fatah-aligned al-Aqsa Brigades, the Public Resistance Committee’s Salah al-Din Brigades, and the Ali Abu Mustafa Brigades of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). Hamas and Islamic Jihad are responsible for the majority of rocket attacks, and claim to have fired 820 rockets from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009.

Statements by leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, media reports and independent analysis by nongovernmental organizations, and Human Rights Watch’s interviews with residents of Gaza, suggest that Hamas can control the ability of other armed groups to fire rockets at Israel. Hamas has on several occasions effectively prevented other armed groups from firing rockets.

Leaders of Hamas and other armed groups have publicly expressed their intention to target Israeli civilians, seeking to justify their attacks as lawful reprisals for Israeli attacks against Palestinian civilians. For example, Abu Obeida, a spokesman for the Qassam Brigades, said in a pre-recorded video released on January 5 that “continuing the incursion will only make us increase our rocket range […]. We will double the number of Israelis under fire.” Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar, in a speech broadcast the same day, said, “The Israeli enemy … shelled everyone in Gaza. They shelled children and hospitals and mosques, and in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way.”

Hamas leaders have also claimed that rocket attacks against Israeli civilians are justified by the “right to resist” Israeli occupation.[1] In an interview on May 5, 2009, Hamas leader Khaled Meshal appeared to acknowledge that Hamas rocket attacks intentionally targeted Israeli civilians. In the course of describing why Hamas had decided to stop firing rockets for the time being, Meshal said:

Not targeting civilians is part of an evaluation of the movement to serve the people's interest. Firing these rockets is a method and not the goal. The right to resist the occupation is a legitimate right but practicing this right is decided by the leadership within the movement.
Hamas claimed responsibility for each of the three Israeli civilian deaths documented in this report.

Human Rights Watch has documented laws-of-war violations by Israeli forces in Gaza, including evidence of war crimes during Operation Cast Lead.[2] However, laws-of-war violations by one party to a conflict do not justify violations by another, and reprisal attacks that target civilians are prohibited under any circumstances. Even assuming the rocket attacks were intended as reprisals for Israeli attacks that killed and injured civilians, they still are unlawful under the laws of war. The law governing reprisals—defined as otherwise unlawful actions that are considered lawful when used as an enforcement measure in reaction to an adversary’s unlawful acts—does not permit direct or indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

Moreover, a fundamental principle of the laws of war is that they apply to all parties to a conflict regardless of the justifications for going to war. Whether it is Hamas’ claims of “the right to resist occupation” or Israel’s of the right “to combat terror,” the reasons for engaging in armed conflict do not permit a party to ignore its legal obligations in the way it conducts hostilities.

Some critics of Human Rights Watch's work have argued that its coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict fails to recognize the great disparity in the magnitude and extent of the attacks and losses caused during the recent fighting between Hamas and Israel and the vastly differing sophistication of the weaponry used by each side, thereby creating an artificial balance and softening criticism of Israeli abuses.

During the recent armed conflict in Gaza, IDF military operations caused far greater total harm to civilian lives and property than operations by Palestinian armed groups. The IDF killed more than 1,350 Palestinians, including a large number of civilians; Hamas and other Palestinian groups killed six Israeli soldiers and three civilians.

The conflict in Gaza was indeed characterized by great disparity in the military strength of the parties to the conflict. Palestinian armed groups primarily fought with small arms, whereas the IDF used highly advanced weaponry, including armor and aircraft. The tonnage and explosive power of weapons used by Israel in Gaza far outweighed those of Hamas. However, these discrepancies do not discount the need to examine violations of laws of war by all sides to a conflict, nor do they justify violations by Hamas.

The purpose of the laws of war is not to create parity between parties to a conflict, or to assess their violations in light of their relevant capacities, but to minimize the harm to the civilian population. Violations of the laws of war are not measured in the number of civilian casualties, but whether each side is taking all feasible precautions to minimize civilian loss. Using unsophisticated weapons does not justify failure to respect the laws of war, nor does an adversary’s use of sophisticated weapons provide a pass to its opponents to ignore those laws. Disparities in military capability, however measured, are irrelevant. The taking of civilian life can be minimized only if both parties recognize their legal obligations to abide by the laws of war however sophisticated the weaponry at their disposal.

Human Rights Watch is committed to documenting the worst violations of the laws of war committed by all sides to conflict. It is to promote the principle that civilians may never be the object of attack, regardless of the relative strength of the attacker, that Human Rights Watch has published this report.

The laws of war require parties to a conflict to investigate and take appropriate punitive action against individuals within their control who are implicated in war crimes. Hamas authorities have failed to take any action against Hamas commanders and fighters responsible for unlawful rocket attacks against Israel. Hamas has reportedly taken violent steps to prevent other armed groups from firing rockets. On March 10, the London-based pan-Arab daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat reported the alleged torture by Hamas police of 10 members of Saraya al-Quds, the armed wing of Islamic Jihad.[3] The paper reported that Hamas police detained the 10 men, from Khan Yunis, and tortured them to coerce them to sign pledges that they would not fire rockets at Israel.

[Dill]

(10-25-2023, 12:14 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Here is 2021
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-leaders-condemn-tlaibs-antisemitic-dog-whistle-in-recent-comments/

Here is result of recent Talaib comments and her false narrative Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza. BTW..she has tripled down and after Biden admin. found proof no missiles were fired from Israel near the hospital, but in fact were fired inside Gaza close to a hospital, she continued to blame Israel.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/jews-respond-new-york-times-initial-report-gaza-hospital-explosion-harassed-abused
Jews respond to New York Times initial report on Gaza hospital explosion: ‘Harassed and abused because of it’
Jews say they feel unsafe following initial bias coverage of Gaza hospital blast
Kassy Dillon By Kassy Dillon Fox News
Published October 24, 2023 5:00pm EDT

Talaib used initial story that generated from AP, CNN, NYT and others that said Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza that killed over 500 people. It was a story that source was Hamas and was never vetted by any of the news organizations for accuracy prior to reporting on it.

Everyone is aware of what Tlaib said after the hospital was bombed. No need to keep repeating that "news." 

"Jews say they feel unsafe now." Remember your original claim was that Tlaib's comments were causing damage and riots around the world.  It's the "around the world" claim that I have been disputing. Nothing you say here supports Tlaib's comments had the widespread effect you attribute to them. 

Also, Israel is bombing a civilian population; that will continue to be reported. It's not like most of the world feels that part is ok, just the hospital bombing is bad. Both Jews and Palestinians in the US are going to feel fear because of this war. As I mentioned above, one Palestinian child has been stabbed to death in Chicago.

So my problem from the get go has been you demanding that the Times and other news sources hold to a standard that you are not holding yourself to. That includes attributing Tlaib's statements to the entire "Squad," and failing to mention that she has condemned Hamas war crimes, and is calling for a full investigation of the hospital bombing, as are many reputable organizations around the world. 

(10-25-2023, 12:14 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: "Shame on anyone who glorifies as 'resistance' the largest single-day mass murder of Jews since the Holocaust," Torres added. "It is reprehensible and repulsive."
Talaib also lied and incited a riot that resulted in 300 arrests in the Capital building. She said Israel was responsible for the rocket/missle that hit a Gaza hospital killing innocent children, crying and making a huge scene.
But hey, keep supporting her and the squad's position. Keep not looking for anything she has done or said.

I am aware of the accusations you've posted above. Seems to me she is just called "anti-semitic" because she critizes Israel, not because she is
actually anti-semitic.

So far as I can tell, what you call a "riot" was a sit down by 300 members of Jewish Voice for Peace, who are also anti-semitic by the standards you are applying here. Second time in one post you've reported that Tlaib said Israel bombed the hospital. She was crying because she has family under the occupation. You seem to forget about the 5 million Palestinians denied basic human rights while focusing on the hospital incident.

Your last comment implies that people should research topics they are discussing. I needed to know what specific incidents you were referring to, since your definition of "anti-semitism" is not the same as mine.  Looks like my other claim is still valid--the dust up over Tlaib is more about people in the US using it to leverage political damage on each other. 

[Luvnit2]

https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-issues-correction-after-pushing-hamas-narrative-clearly-attribute-claims-terror-group

Well another trusted liberal news source finally admits they published a false narrative on the Gaza hospital being bombed by Israel, the Hamas news source was their source. Why would any credible news station take Hamas at their word? NYT also admitted they screwed up the narrative after severe push back.
MEDIA
CNN issues correction after pushing Hamas narrative: We 'did not clearly attribute claims' to terror group
The network falsely reported an Israeli airstrike targeted a Gaza hospital killing hundreds of civilians

[Dill]

(10-25-2023, 07:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I keep hearing how Palestinians in Gaza have been treated unfairly by Israel, yet when I do research I see it is Gaza's terrorist group firing rockets first at Israel without provocation. Also, the rockets made and fired into Israel are not accurate so chance of killing innocent civilians is highly at risk. Please fell free to counter facts of how Israeli killed Palestinians for no reason. I also understand prior to October 7, 2023, tens of thousands of Palestinians crosse into Israel to work. I just don't see Israel being the aggressor in this conflict.

I'm glad that you are looking into this. If you read the article you posed above, it should also show that Israel has been violating humanitarian law for decades.

Your research shows Gaza terrorists "firing rockets first." And thousands of Palestinians are allowed to cross into Israel to work, though that was mostly before Operation Cast Lead. Not so much in the last decade. 

So you've got 2.2 million Palestinians, including an elder generation which still remembers its dispossession, all imprisoned on a narrow strip of land, their movement in and out controlled by the Israelis, who can shut off their food, water and electricity on a whim--people who live in constant fear of air strikes from Israeli. 

But you don't see any "provocation" on the Israeli side? 

[Dill]

(10-26-2023, 11:38 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-issues-correction-after-pushing-hamas-narrative-clearly-attribute-claims-terror-group

Well another trusted liberal news source finally admits they published a false narrative on the Gaza hospital being bombed by Israel, the Hamas news source was their source. Why would any credible news station take Hamas at their word? NYT also admitted they screwed up the narrative after severe push back.
MEDIA
CNN issues correction after pushing Hamas narrative: We 'did not clearly attribute claims' to terror group
The network falsely reported an Israeli airstrike targeted a Gaza hospital killing hundreds of civilians

You are implying that "liberal news" sources have a problem with correcting errors, while accessing your story through the 
filter of a news organization that DOES have a problem correcting errors.

For the record, I'm not so sure all these sources were "taking Hamas at their word." Hospital staff were the ones
initially claiming an Israel airstrike; after all Israel was bombing civilian infrastructure so it didn't seem like such a leap.

So we are still talking about this hospital story and not the occupation or the ongoing deaths of Palestinian civilians, 
including THOUSANDS of children? Not to mention US material support for the Gaza incursion.

[Luvnit2]

Hamas should be protecting those in Palestinian trying to flee south There are reports Hamas stole fuel from residents. Also, the are stopping them from heading south. This is the opposite of protecting them. They have almost 200 miles of tunnels, why not let Palestinians use the tunnels to help them stay safe?

Hamas terrorists continue to block roads and prevent civilians in Northern Gaza from fleeing to the south as Israel has urged them to do.

Israeli Defense Forces released a recording they say is of an Israeli intelligence officer speaking with a Gaza resident. The officer urges the resident to flee south toward Khan Yunis, but the resident says that is not possible due to Hamas roadblocks.

"I'm an officer from the IDF, to ensure your personal safety, I'm asking you to head towards Khan Yunis immediately," the officer says in the recording.

"All the roads are blocked," the resident says. "They're just sending people back home...they are shooting at people."

As I have stated, Hamas started this war by barbaric killing of women, children and babies. The too babies hostage. Now, Hamas is doing nothing to insure the safety of Palestinians.

I also see no disdain for Gaza militants firing rockets into Israel without great guidance so no concern for Israeli civilians. Israel did not start he war.

[Luvnit2]

(10-26-2023, 12:03 PM)Dill Wrote: You are implying that "liberal news" sources have a problem with correcting errors, while accessing your story through the 
filter of a news organization that DOES have a problem correcting errors.

For the record, I'm not so sure all these sources were "taking Hamas at their word." Hospital staff were the ones
initially claiming an Israel airstrike; after all Israel was bombing civilian infrastructure so it didn't seem like such a leap.

So we are still talking about this hospital story and not the occupation or the ongoing deaths of Palestinian civilians, 
including THOUSANDS of children? Not to mention US material support for the Gaza incursion.

How does Hamas protect the Palestinians they represent? Israel has shot down thousands of rockets from Gaza, but some got through and killed Israeli children, yet I don't see any concern for the Israeli people. I don't see any concern about the killing and taking hostage women, children and babies on October 7th.

I hold Hamas accountable for every Palestinian death, they started it and then they use their own people as human shields. That is pure evil.

Who is your source for the killing of thousands of Children? Is it the UN or is it Hamas? Neither is a trustworthy source. Or did you pull out thousand of children from year rear end?

[GMDino]

(10-26-2023, 12:12 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Hamas should be protecting those in Palestinian trying to flee south There are reports Hamas stole fuel from residents. Also, the are stopping them from heading south. This is the opposite of protecting them. They have almost 200 miles of tunnels, why not let Palestinians use the tunnels to help them stay safe?

Hamas terrorists continue to block roads and prevent civilians in Northern Gaza from fleeing to the south as Israel has urged them to do.

Israeli Defense Forces released a recording they say is of an Israeli intelligence officer speaking with a Gaza resident. The officer urges the resident to flee south toward Khan Yunis, but the resident says that is not possible due to Hamas roadblocks.

"I'm an officer from the IDF, to ensure your personal safety, I'm asking you to head towards Khan Yunis immediately," the officer says in the recording.

"All the roads are blocked," the resident says. "They're just sending people back home...they are shooting at people."

As I have stated, Hamas started this war by barbaric killing of women, children and babies. The too babies hostage. Now, Hamas is doing nothing to insure the safety of Palestinians.

I also see no disdain for Gaza militants firing rockets into Israel without great guidance so no concern for Israeli civilians. Israel did not start he war.

[Luvnit2]

(10-26-2023, 11:53 AM)Dill Wrote: I'm glad that you are looking into this. If you read the article you posed above, it should also show that Israel has been violating humanitarian law for decades.

Your research shows Gaza terrorists "firing rockets first." And thousands of Palestinians are allowed to cross into Israel to work, though that was mostly before Operation Cast Lead. Not so much in the last decade. 

So you've got 2.2 million Palestinians, including an elder generation which still remembers its dispossession, all imprisoned on a narrow strip of land, their movement in and out controlled by the Israelis, who can shut off their food, water and electricity on a whim--people who live in constant fear of air strikes from Israeli. 

But you don't see any "provocation" on the Israeli side? 

Are you saying Israel if forcing residents in Gaza to stay in Gaza or they will be imprisoned or killed? Please explain as I have never seen Israel forced anyone to stay and live in Gaza.

[GMDino]

(10-26-2023, 12:21 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Are you saying Israel if forcing residents in Gaza to stay in Gaza or they will be imprisoned or killed? Please explain as I have never seen Israel forced anyone to stay and live in Gaza.

How many times have you been there?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Here are some facts that cannot be disputed by a rational person. Hamas is the de facto governing body of Gaza. They are also a terrorist organization with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. They are a proxy for Iran, the biggest state funder of terrorism in the world. Iran also has a stated goal of the complete destruction of Israel. There is no compromise for both actors outside of Israel's destruction. They are also both willing to commit any atrocity, including on their own people, to achieve this goal as they believe it is divinely justified, even required of them. Once you understand these unalterable facts their actions make sense.

Provoke Israel with unspeakable acts of barbarism. Then retreat into Gaza and hide directly among the civilian population prompting the inevitable Israeli response to cause civilian casualties. Then make a huge show to the world of said civilian casualties, all the while playing victim and obscuring your direct role in causing those civilian casualties. Oh, also don't let said civilians evacuate the area, because then they can't be killed and their bodies paraded before cameras to further show how evil Israel is.

This tactic not only works in the Muslim world, which is inclined to despite Israel to begin with, it plays very well with the Western left, who simply cannot resist siding with the "oppressed" to make up for the "sins of their ancestors." They will happily ignore any atrocities committed by the oppressed and will, in fact, often go out of their way to justify them as a reasonable response to their oppression. You see this playing out in micro in this very thread. Because of this narrow focus the bigger picture, that being this is all part of the plan for Hamas and Iran to enable the utter destruction of Israel, is completely ignored, because that would require critical thinking and reasoning and all the modern left appears capable of is pathos and self flagellation.

At the end of the day this boils down to a very simple choice, do you support a country fighting for its very survival, or do you support terrorist actors for whom human life is a pawn on the chessboard, existing to be sacrificed for eventual victory? Of course, this is all human life, even that of the people they claim to represent and protect. This is a religious war with a thin veneer of population displacement coating it to make it easier for some to swallow. Because it is a religious war there is no rational resolution to it, and anyone thinking otherwise is deluding themselves.

[Luvnit2]

(10-26-2023, 12:18 PM)GMDino Wrote:

I thought you were the media police. Any comments on liberal outlets AP, CNN, NYT and others publishing a Hamas propaganda story igniting the Arab world due to its false headlines???? You love to call out Fox News, yet you are silent on liberal media literally starting a fire storm in the middle east and the world as protests continue to ramp up at college campuses.

Yet crickets from you on the squad and all of these liberal news agencies who were are 100% wrong. How many will die due to their poor and unvetted initial claims Israel bombed a Gaza hospital when in fact rockets were fired close to the hospital and like a lot of Gaza rockets malfunctioned and fell in the parking lot of a hospital. Hamas claim over 500 killed including women and children. How many Palestinians have been killed by the hand of Hamas?

That is the problem with Hamas reporting, they lie about everything. Hamas was caught in a huge lie with the hospital story, but if taken for true, with one rocket they killed over 500 Palestinians. 

Where is the outrage toward Hamas killing their own people and not only holding Israeli women, children and babies hostage, but using their people hostage as well?

[Luvnit2]

(10-26-2023, 12:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Here are some facts that cannot be disputed by a rational person.  Hamas is the de facto governing body of Gaza.  They are also a terrorist organization with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel.  They are a proxy for Iran, the biggest state funder of terrorism in the world.  Iran also has a stated goal of the complete destruction of Israel.  There is no compromise for both actors outside of Israel's destruction.  They are also both willing to commit any atrocity, including on their own people, to achieve this goal as they believe it is divinely justified, even required of them.  Once you understand these unalterable facts their actions make sense.

Provoke Israel with unspeakable acts of barbarism.  Then retreat into Gaza and hide directly among the civilian population prompting the inevitable Israeli response to cause civilian casualties.  Then make a huge show to the world of said civilian casualties, all the while playing victim and obscuring your direct role in causing those civilian casualties.  Oh, also don't let said civilians evacuate the area, because then they can't be killed and their bodies paraded before cameras to further show how evil Israel is.

This tactic not only works in the Muslim world, which is inclined to despite Israel to begin with, it plays very well with the Western left, who simply cannot resist siding with the "oppressed" to make up for the "sins of their ancestors."  They will happily ignore any atrocities committed by the oppressed and will, in fact, often go out of their way to justify them as a reasonable response to their oppression.  You see this playing out in micro in this very thread.  Because of this narrow focus the bigger picture, that being this is all part of the plan for Hamas and Iran to enable the utter destruction of Israel, is completely ignored, because that would require critical thinking and reasoning and all the modern left appears capable of is pathos and self flagellation.

At the end of the day this boils down to a very simple choice, do you support a country fighting for its very survival, or do you support terrorist actors for whom human life is a pawn on the chessboard, existing to be sacrificed for eventual victory?  Of course, this is all human life, even that of the people they claim to represent and protect.  This is a religious war with a thin veneer of population displacement coating it to make it easier for some to swallow.  Because it is a religious war there is no rational resolution to it, and anyone thinking otherwise is deluding themselves.

All I can say is awesome breakdown and analysis. The poor journalistic coverage of the hospital (parking) lot was a gold nugget Hamas tried to play and were caught in a lie. Problem is we live in a world of headlines and the retractions are rarely on the front page so many remain uneducated of Hamas actually killed the Palestinians. 

[GMDino]

(10-26-2023, 12:33 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I thought you were the media police. Any comments on liberal outlets AP, CNN, NYT and others publishing a Hamas propaganda story igniting the Arab world due to its false headlines???? You love to call out Fox News, yet you are silent on liberal media literally starting a fire storm in the middle east and the world as protests continue to ramp up at college campuses.

Yet crickets from you on the squad and all of these liberal news agencies who were are 100% wrong. How many will die due to their poor and unvetted initial claims Israel bombed a Gaza hospital when in fact rockets were fired close to the hospital and like a lot of Gaza rockets malfunctioned and fell in the parking lot of a hospital. Hamas claim over 500 killed including women and children. How many Palestinians have been killed by the hand of Hamas?

That is the problem with Hamas reporting, they lie about everything. Hamas was caught in a huge lie with the hospital story, but if taken for true, with one rocket they killed over 500 Palestinians. 

Where is the outrage toward Hamas killing their own people and not only holding Israeli women, children and babies hostage, but using their people hostage as well?

I haven't had my six months of training to police anything yet.  

But your overreaction and general inability to see anything beyond what the right wing noise machine tells you makes me wish I had a badge and could enforce something...anything...when it comes to "misinformation" and "lies". 

[Belsnickel]

(10-26-2023, 12:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: At the end of the day this boils down to a very simple choice, do you support a country fighting for its very survival, or do you support terrorist actors for whom human life is a pawn on the chessboard, existing to be sacrificed for eventual victory? Of course, this is all human life, even that of the people they claim to represent and protect. This is a religious war with a thin veneer of population displacement coating it to make it easier for some to swallow. Because it is a religious war there is no rational resolution to it, and anyone thinking otherwise is deluding themselves.

This is a false dichotomy. As with just about everything in this world there is far more nuance than just two sides to it.

Also, I would argue that the thin veneer is the religious component. Religion is often used as an excuse for things that really just boil down to people being pieces of shit.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-26-2023, 01:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is a false dichotomy. As with just about everything in this world there is far more nuance than just two sides to it.

Also, I would argue that the thin veneer is the religious component. Religion is often used as an excuse for things that really just boil down to people being pieces of shit.

I honestly don't think you could be more wrong about this.  There are certainly people involved using religion as a fulcrum to get people to do what they want.  But at the end of the day, if Israel was a Sunni nation then we're not hearing anything about this conflict, if one even existed.  Iran sure as shit wouldn't be interested or involved and the US likely wouldn't be either.

I would note that religion is the crux of the issue on both sides, there are hard core Zionists who view the territory as theirs by divine, unshakeable right, just the same as a hard core Muslim. But I have a hard time understanding how anyone, much less an educated and well informed person like yourself, could doubt that this entire conflict boils down to religion.

[Dill]

(10-26-2023, 12:21 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Are you saying Israel if forcing residents in Gaza to stay in Gaza or they will be imprisoned or killed? Please explain as I have never seen Israel forced anyone to stay and live in Gaza.

Yes. Gaza has been blockaded by Israel since 2005, when Israeli settlements were withdrawn. It is surrounded by barbed wire and walls. Palestinians are allowed to fish in the ocean up to six nautical miles, and if they go beyond their boats will be sunk. Egypt supports the blockade on the southern border.  

Gaza was nominally under control of the Palestinian authority until Hamas took over. But the territory as a whole is considered under control of Israel, as is the West Bank. That's why I said they can turn off the water, electricity, medical supplies, and food whenever they want. And they do. So if you are a Palestinian living there you can't just walk out when you feel like it. If you try to break out, you'll be shot. The Israelis decide what you can do. This is hell for people who, for example, need cancer treatments they cannot get in Gaza.

The West Bank is also severely controlled, but more from within. It is chock full of Israeli settlements. Palestinians travel in walled corridors with many military checkpoints. 

[Belsnickel]

(10-26-2023, 07:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I honestly don't think you could be more wrong about this.  There are certainly people involved using religion as a fulcrum to get people to do what they want.  But at the end of the day, if Israel was a Sunni nation then we're not hearing anything about this conflict, if one even existed.  Iran sure as shit wouldn't be interested or involved and the US likely wouldn't be either.

I would note that religion is the crux of the issue on both sides, there are hard core Zionists who view the territory as theirs by divine, unshakeable right, just the same as a hard core Muslim. But I have a hard time understanding how anyone, much less an educated and well informed person like yourself, could doubt that this entire conflict boils down to religion.

I don't tend to blame anything on religion. Religion is a construct that people use to justify their shitty behavior and make themselves feel warm and fuzzy. Without religion there would be some other tribalist bullshit they would use.

Please note, in case anyone wants to try to jump in here and bash me, religion has an important role in society and is also a separate thing than faith or belief. Religion itself is a separate, important thing but it is manipulated by terrible people to justify their behavior.