Is politically motivated violence acceptable?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

A very good article from Politico about how extremists from both sides of the spectrum are becoming increasingly comfortable with the idea of using violence should the other side win the election.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/01/political-violence-424157


Rather disconcerting stuff.

[BmorePat87]

Unless you're rebelling against an authoritarian government, I would have to say no.

[Vas Deferens]

Pat said it best, agree with his sentiment.

The run on guns to protect oneself from the fallout of the pandemic is not helping the situation.

[*michaelsean*]

The problem with anarchists (and that’s what they are) is they don’t realize they may be the first one shot in the head. They always think the violence is theirs to give and not receive.

[GMDino]

I am anti-violence in virtually every situation.

Self-defense gets iffy for me sometimes depending on the circumstances.

But I know I'm a little more extreme in that.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

ANY type of violence is not acceptable, unless it is a clear-cut life or death situation.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Are we including the 2003 invasion of Iraq?

[Au165]

(10-01-2020, 10:57 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Unless you're rebelling against an authoritarian government, I would have to say no.

This is kind of the issue though as what is "authoritarian" has somehow become subjective in our current society. There are groups on both sides that would argue that the other side winning would be leading to authoritarian rule. We are at the height of the hyperbole, and social media and the internet has only heightened this election into a flashpoint moment of "If we don't win, "our" way of life is over as we know it". This has simply pulled more people into desperation mode which very likely could lead to some very bad events occurring.

[hollodero]

(10-02-2020, 11:02 AM)GMDino Wrote: I am anti-violence in virtually every situation.

I sure would have hoped that one of the the attempted assassinations of Hitler would have worked out. I also found it quite acceptable to kill Bin Laden.

Of course this is in no way comparable to any current situation in any western country. But I can't unequivocally claim that all violence is always bad all the time.

[fredtoast]

(10-02-2020, 11:19 AM)Au165 Wrote:  There are groups on both sides that would argue that the other side winning would be leading to authoritarian rule. We are at the height of the hyperbole, and social media and the internet has only heightened this election into a flashpoint moment of "If we don't win, "our" way of life is over as we know it".

Strong Rep.

Bundys and the Proud Boys v. Antifa at high noon.

If we could just figure out some way to let all the crazies kill each other without taking down anyone else.

[GMDino]

(10-02-2020, 11:26 AM)hollodero Wrote: I sure would have hoped that one of the the attempted assassinations of Hitler would have worked out. I also found it quite acceptable to kill Bin Laden.

Of course this is in no way comparable to any current situation in any western country. But I can't unequivocally claim that all violence is always bad all the time.

That why I said virtually.  I've seen people where people killed in self defense to save their lives and the lives of others.  The US was created by war and killing as much as the Constitution and the Founding Fathers.  

Violence occurs but I'm not a fan.

[Au165]

(10-02-2020, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Strong Rep.

Bundys and the Proud Boys v. Antifa at high noon.

If we could just figure out some way to let all the crazies kill each other without taking down anyone else.

We have vilified political affiliation far too long in this country and it has become scary. Differing ideologies have always existed, and empathy used to exist as well which allowed for logicial discussion, however it is the relentless bombardment on the country by cable news and social media that these different viewpoints from your own are "dangerous" and "a threat" that is risking tearing the country apart.  When people refer to members of the other party, you have begun hearing a certain disgust in their voices that sounds as if they are describing an enemy state, not their fellow Americans. We have made members of political parties enemies and by association anyone who thinks similarly, which has given a large portion of the country a societal "license to hate". This hate is illogically festering and is about to boil over, and I think it won't just be reserved for the farthest corners of each ideology.

[hollodero]

(10-02-2020, 11:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: That why I said virtually.  I've seen people where people killed in self defense to save their lives and the lives of others.  The US was created by war and killing as much as the Constitution and the Founding Fathers.  

Violence occurs but I'm not a fan.

An assassination attempt does not qualify as self-defense though. Still, in extreme cases like Hitler, I'm all for assassination attempts working out.

Just to be very clear, of course that applies to Hitler, not to Trump or any other western leader, and hardly any leader at all. Maybe Kim or some of the more gruesome African dictators.

[BmorePat87]

(10-02-2020, 11:19 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is kind of the issue though as what is "authoritarian" has somehow become subjective in our current society. There are groups on both sides that would argue that the other side winning would be leading to authoritarian rule. We are at the height of the hyperbole, and social media and the internet has only heightened this election into a flashpoint moment of "If we don't win, "our" way of life is over as we know it". This has simply pulled more people into desperation mode which very likely could lead to some very bad events occurring.

Tyranny is certainly in the eye of the beholder, and my definition of it is the standard I used when crafting my opinion. Hyperbole exists, but it doesn't change my answer as nothing in this nation meets the standard of tyranny. 

[GMDino]

(10-02-2020, 11:43 AM)hollodero Wrote: An assassination attempt does not qualify as self-defense though. Still, in extreme cases like Hitler, I'm all for assassination attempts working out.

Just to be very clear, of course that applies to Hitler, not to Trump or any other western leader, and hardly any leader at all. Maybe Kim or some of the more gruesome African dictators.

Isn't that where it gets gummy though?

Iran thinks Trump is a terrorist.  We kill terrorists.  They can justify a killing as some who is "extreme". 

I get Hitler is an extreme example but had we captured him would that be worse?  Of course we'd have sentenced him to death and killed him anyway.

It's why I have a hard time with it.  Not that I think Trump is the same as Hitler or Kim but that humans use their own justifications for such actions.  We all do.

[hollodero]

(10-02-2020, 12:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: Isn't that where it gets gummy though?

Iran thinks Trump is a terrorist.  We kill terrorists.  They can justify a killing as some who is "extreme". 

I get Hitler is an extreme example but had we captured him would that be worse?  Of course we'd have sentenced him to death and killed him anyway.

It's why I have a hard time with it.  Not that I think Trump is the same as Hitler or Kim but that humans use their own justifications for such actions.  We all do.

Sure it is gummy (never heard that word, but I assume I get the meaning). And of course I chose an extreme to somewhat counter a principle.

As for Hitler, the US killing him is one thing, but the assassination attempts came from several German people within, that didn't have an alternative to killing him. So they engaged in an act of violence that usually gets condemned in principle, but in that extreme case, I can no longer uphold the principle. Eg. I wish he would have gotten killed in '39 by a politcally motivated assassination. 

And because of that, I can not really claim that I think acts like those are the wrong choice in virtually every case. Not in this one.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-02-2020, 12:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: Isn't that where it gets gummy though?

Iran thinks Trump is a terrorist.  We kill terrorists.  They can justify a killing as some who is "extreme". 

I get Hitler is an extreme example but had we captured him would that be worse?  Of course we'd have sentenced him to death and killed him anyway.

It's why I have a hard time with it.  Not that I think Trump is the same as Hitler or Kim but that humans use their own justifications for such actions.  We all do.

I get your point, but "evil" governments don't perceive themselves as such and see their opponents as the evil ones.  There are some objective moral points that help us overcome this hurdle though.  Does the US government hang gay people from cranes or thrown them off rooftops like Iran does?  Does the US government sanction stoning a person to death for offenses like adultery and apostasy?  Do we order a virgin to be raped so we can then execute her, as a virgin cannot be executed?  Do we throw ideological opponents in prison and torture them simply because they are ideological opponents?  The US certainly has its faults, as all nations do, but if we adhere to what is commonly thought of as moral and just Iran's perception of the US as evil and them as the good guys immediately falls apart.

(10-02-2020, 12:28 PM)hollodero Wrote: Sure it is gummy (never heard that word, but I assume I get the meaning). And of course I chose an extreme to somewhat counter a principle.

Of course you've heard of gummy, it means rubber in English.

Quote:As for Hitler, the US killing him is one thing, but the assassination attempts came from several German people within, that didn't have an alternative to killing him. So they engaged in an act of violence that usually gets condemned in principle, but in that extreme case, I can no longer uphold the principle. Eg. I wish he would have gotten killed in '39 by a politcally motivated assassination. 

And because of that, I can not really claim that I think acts like those are the wrong choice in virtually every case. Not in this one.

Using the same standards as listed above Nazi Germany's government is morally evil, there's no debating this (I know you weren't debating it).  As Hitler was the lynchpin for the state's existence as is killing him would absolutely not have been a morally evil act.  At least not in the classic way of viewing morality.

[treee]

Humans can make violence an arcane concept, we're just in the phase of our development where we feel we have to be strategic in our embracing of pacifism.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

The obvious good news in this thread is that no one on this board falls into the categories described in the linked article. The obvious bad news is the number of people in this country who do. Nor do I find either side more justified or morally right than the other in this regard. This will be sadly overshadowed though by the election results, as only one side of violence inclined extremists will feel the need to vent their spleen over the election results, meaning only that side will be cast as inclined or prone to violence. Consequently, the problem on the other side of the spectrum will be ignored and allowed to continue to fester.

[hollodero]

(10-02-2020, 01:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The obvious good news in this thread is that no one on this board falls into the categories described in the linked article.  The obvious bad news is the number of people in this country who do.  Nor do I find either side more justified or morally right than the other in this regard.  This will be sadly overshadowed though by the election results, as only one side of violence inclined extremists will feel the need to vent their spleen over the election results, meaning only that side will be cast as inclined or prone to violence.  Consequently, the problem on the other side of the spectrum will be ignored and allowed to continue to fester.

I agree with that.
The only slight different take I have is that I feel democrat leaders will probably not endorse violence. When it comes to Trump though, I am not so certain.