Israel Bans Omar/Tlaib

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-16-2019, 12:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: SSF said there was not one post agreeing with the ban.

I quoted your post as one that agrees with the ban.

You respond that I "didn't read" your post.

I said if you meant to say you DID NOT agree with the ban you should have said that.

You respond that you never once said you didn't support the ban.

And *I* am failing?

Have a good weekend.

Except I didn't quote the part of SSF's post that said nobody agreed with the ban. I quoted the part that was about Israel walking it back.

Why would I be referring to a part of a post that I specifically didn't include in the quoting of the post?

JJ: Israel is walking back their ban.
SSF: No they're not.
You: Here's a link showing they are allowing her to visit her family.
Me: The quote you included in their reply already said they would allow her to visit her family.
You: You posted that you agreed with the ban.

Yes, you are failing. You took the conversation in the 90 degree turn because you didn't read.

Have a good weekend, indeed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2019, 09:34 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/israels-interior-minister-will-allow-rashida-tlaib-to-visit-country-to-see-grandmother-report

[/url]

They made that decision the same day I heard about the ban.  They didn't change their mind because of pressure, in that regard at least.

Quote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Israel-Bans-Omar-Tlaib?pid=741558#pid741558]Well....

Still didn't see it.  Did you mean to link to a different post?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2019, 10:17 AM)jj22 Wrote: I think your wrong with all of this.

Yeah, I got that.

Quote:Plus I've always been pro America which is why I upset a lot of Trump supporters who have found it acceptable to applaud foreign countries for attacking fellow Americans and who have professed their love for Putin/Kim/Saudi King etc, and have turned on American Intel, our VETS, and Gold Star and Purple heart families.

Who has professed love for Putin, Kim or the Saudis?  As to the rest, you're painting in rather broad strokes, you'll have to give me specifics if I'm going to be able to address them.

Quote:And while this country has it's race issues which I've discussed. I've always been pro America. Trump supporters can't take that away from me as that's been a core principle of mine and will remain so. I've always said I'm not Dem or Republican but American.

Who's trying to take it away from you?  I'm basing my statement on my memory of your posting history.  I don't recall any pro-American sentiment being expressed by you in the past.  You could have made some and I missed it, but you're not the poster that leaps to mind when I think of patriotism.

Quote:In the mean time, I'll continue to read about Israel backlash and slow walking back the ban.

They're not walking back anything.  When they announced the ban they stated they would grant her a humanitarian exemption provided she agree to certain conditions.  So, your statement is demonstrably wrong.

Quote:I'll say it again. Nobody sanctions Americans without a response. Israel knows this.

I suppose we'll see if anything happens to Israel because of this.  I'm betting heavily on not gonna happen.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(08-16-2019, 01:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They made that decision the same day I heard about the ban.  They didn't change their mind because of pressure, in that regard at least.




Still didn't see it.  Did you mean to link to a different post?

And Tlaib won't go even though they allowed her to visit her family....

I guess her grandma isn't all that important. All Israel is asking for is for her to not bad talk them while she's there.
Makes sense cause she's not going to for political reason, but personal ones. When she's back in the US, she can back talk all she wants, they can't stop her here. She's making this out to be that Israel is taking away her rights now.

It's all stupid and coming across now as nothing but political grandstanding and it will backfire. People aren't as stupid as she wants us to believe.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2019, 02:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And Tlaib won't go even though they allowed her to visit her family....

Did this just happen?  I checked the news this morning when I got up, 5 AM, and it indicated that she had agreed not to criticize Israel or back BDS while in the country.

Quote:I guess her grandma isn't all that important. All Israel is asking for is for her to not bad talk them while she's there.
Makes sense cause she's not going to for political reason, but personal ones. When she's back in the US, she can back talk all she wants, they can't stop her here. She's making this out to be that Israel is taking away her rights now.

Well, if she's refusing to visit her relatives under those conditions then she is absolutely grandstanding for political purposes as you're about to say.

Quote:It's all stupid and coming across now as nothing but political grandstanding and it will backfire. People aren't as stupid as she wants us to believe.

She may think she's playing the long game, but she's not going to make much headway in changing US policy towards Israel.  For good and ill we're pretty locked in in that regard.

[jj22]

(08-16-2019, 02:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Who's trying to take it away from you?  I'm basing my statement on my memory of your posting history.  I don't recall any pro-American sentiment being expressed by you in the past.  You could have made some and I missed it, but you're not the poster that leaps to mind when I think of patriotism.

Really? Is this a troll job.

I can't tell,  I've always gotten support for my love for this country. Even from those who criticize my approach in some of  these threads. That's the one thing many people point to in side notes to me trying to get me to change my approach so my good points get heard through my hyperbole.

Next time you hear me vent about Trump and Russia's attack on our country and his supporters turning on our Intel and loving Dictators, please know it's because of my love for this country and my belief that it is all disgraceful for them to turn on America for political reasons (love for Trump).

There's not much else I'm invested in in this forum then the Russia attack on our Country, and Trumps involvement and his supporters acceptance.

[jj22]

(08-16-2019, 02:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And Tlaib won't go even though they allowed her to visit her family....

I guess her grandma isn't all that important. All Israel is asking for is for her to not bad talk them while she's there.
Makes sense cause she's not going to for political reason, but personal ones. When she's back in the US, she can back talk all she wants, they can't stop her here. She's making this out to be that Israel is taking away her rights now.

It's all stupid and coming across now as nothing but political grandstanding and it will backfire. People aren't as stupid as she wants us to believe.

She has the full support of Democrats and majority of Republicans who disagree with Israel sanctioning an American citizen.

Trump supporters like the move still so they are still criticizing her, but them applauding a foreign state for attacking an American is nothing new.

I agree and thought it was odd she would go with the sanctions against her and Omar still in place.

Remove the sanctions. The only political game being played is Netanyahu. Banning someone then putting restrictions on a visit without lifting the ban.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2019, 02:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: Really? Is this a troll job.

Not at all.

Quote:I can't tell,  I've always gotten support for my love for this country. Even from those who criticize my approach in some of  these threads. That's the one thing many people point to in side notes to me trying to get me to change my approach so my good points get heard through my hyperbole.

Next time you hear me vent about Trump and Russia's attack on our country and his supporters turning on our Intel and loving Dictators, please know it's because of my love for this country and my belief that it is all disgraceful for them to turn on America for political reasons (love for Trump).

I absolutely see you rail about Trump, but hating Trump is not analogous to loving the US.  I will say, whoever is giving you advice about your overuse of hyperbole is spot on.  Your posts would certainly benefit from a cessation it its use.

Quote:There's not much else I'm invested in in this forum then the Russia attack on our Country, and Trumps involvement and his supporters acceptance.

Again, that's not an expression of patriotism on its own.  I suspect the Russian "attack" wouldn't bother you nearly as much if your candidate of choice had won.  That rather renders your expressed outrage a more partisan than patriotic expression.

[jj22]

(08-16-2019, 02:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not at all.



I absolutely see you rail about Trump, but hating Trump is not analogous to loving the US.  I will say, whoever is giving you advice about your overuse of hyperbole is spot on.  Your posts would certainly benefit from a cessation it its use.


Again, that's not an expression of patriotism on its own.  I suspect the Russian "attack" wouldn't bother you nearly as much if your candidate of choice had won.  That rather renders your expressed outrage a more partisan than patriotic expression.

Well I'll take the word from the support I get from the Trump defenders on the board who understand my cause. Just disagree with my approach. Like I said the one thing they say is they can tell I love my country so I respectfully disagree with you if you are being serious with that attack line against me.

And no, I'll never support an attack on our country from a foreign state. No one has before Trump and no one will after him. You are way off on me with this attack line unfortunately.

You've been right with some shots at me before, but this one is out of left field given it seems like my love for the country is the one thing that keeps me in good graces with Trump defenders and supporters (if only on side notes and messages).

[GMDino]

(08-16-2019, 12:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except I didn't quote the part of SSF's post that said nobody agreed with the ban. I quoted the part that was about Israel walking it back.

Why would I be referring to a part of a post that I specifically didn't include in the quoting of the post?

JJ: Israel is walking back their ban.
SSF: No they're not.
You: Here's a link showing they are allowing her to visit her family.
Me: The quote you included in their reply already said they would allow her to visit her family.
You: You posted that you agreed with the ban.

Yes, you are failing. You took the conversation in the 90 degree turn because you didn't read.

Have a good weekend, indeed.

Do. you. suport. the. ban?

That will end this.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2019, 02:47 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I'll take the word from the support I get from the Trump defenders on the board who understand my cause. Just disagree with my approach. Like I said the one thing they say is they can tell I love my country so I respectfully disagree with you if you are being serious with that attack line against me.

You constantly label people as Trump supporters.  I don't think there are that many on this board and none of them are regular posters.

Quote:And no, I'll never support an attack on our country from a foreign state. No one has before Trump and no one will after him. You are way off on me with this attack line unfortunately.

I'm not attacking you, I'm stating my opinion based on my observations.

Quote:You've been right with some shots at me before, but this one is out of left field given it seems like my love for the country is the one thing that keeps me in good graces with Trump defenders and supporters (if only on side notes and messages).

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it and approach your posts with that in mind.

[CJD]

In my experience, every friend group has that guy that is super shady and you kind of feel bad for continuing to be his friend, because it means you're implicitly approving of his behavior.

Increasingly, Israel feels like that friend to America.

I can't really say much more than that on the topic.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2019, 02:51 PM)GMDino Wrote: Do. you. suport. the. ban?

That will end this.

Whether he does or not the post of his you cited certainly doesn't express that.

[Dill]

(08-16-2019, 02:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And Tlaib won't go even though they allowed her to visit her family....

I guess her grandma isn't all that important. All Israel is asking for is for her to not bad talk them while she's there.
Makes sense cause she's not going to for political reason, but personal ones. When she's back in the US, she can back talk all she wants, they can't stop her here. She's making this out to be that Israel is taking away her rights now.

It's all stupid and coming across now as nothing but political grandstanding and it will backfire. People aren't as stupid as she wants us to believe.

Israel is asking that Tlaib not support the BDS movement, or to decry Israeli human rights violations--while claiming Israel is a free and open democracy, the only one in the Middle East, supposedly. 

They are taking away her right to travel to the occupied territories, which are not part of Israel, but under Israeli military control--despite UN General Assembly resolution to the effect that the Palestinian people, not Israel, have sovereignty over this territory. They can (illegally) block her right to travel because they have already taken away the rights of millions of Palestinians to travel. From the perspective of the UN's International Court of Justice, this would certainly be a violation of Tlaib's human rights.

Tlaib's refusal to visit her family under these circumstances is a principled refusal to countenance Israel's illegal control over her family.

If Tlaib was originally invited to visit Palestine/Israel by the lobby group AIPAC, then she certainly was going for a "political reason." And her visit is now blocked for a political reason.

Further she is a member of Congress, and, owing to the doctrine of the separation of powers, Congress has oversight over foreign policy and funding of the Exec. If Bibi blocks her entry to Israel in the wake of a Trump tweet, then Trump has effectively negated her ability to observe US/Israeli policy on the ground in Israel--i.e., negating her oversight responsibilities as a sitting member of Congress. I don't think there is precedent for this (may have happened once during the Vietnam War, not sure).

[Dill]

(08-16-2019, 02:47 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I'll take the word from the support I get from the Trump defenders on the board who understand my cause. Just disagree with my approach. Like I said the one thing they say is they can tell I love my country so I respectfully disagree with you if you are being serious with that attack line against me.
And no, I'll never support an attack on our country from a foreign state. No one has before Trump and no one will after him. You are way off on me with this attack line unfortunately.
You've been right with some shots at me before, but this one is out of left field given it seems like my love for the country is the one thing that keeps me in good graces with Trump defenders and supporters (if only on side notes and messages).

Advice from a fellow "America hater."  Don't take that bait.

Rather, stick to principles. One point of distinction between liberal democracies and authoritarian/totalitarian states is that in liberal democracies, the doctrines of free speech and free press not only allow for criticism of policies and politicians and one's own countrymen, but require it for effective government. There is no requirement at all that you have to say nice things or bad things about "both sides." The common goal, ideally, is to get the facts right and rationally align them with values/principles.

In authoritarian/totalitarian governments, the case is rather different. You are either for the government/leaders or against them.  And this decides whether you love your county or "hate" it--because party and leaders are wholly identified with the country. Criticism of policy is personal. The goal is never to appear weak, regardless of facts. We don't have an authoritarian government in the US, but we do have authoritarian personalities who frame political issues in these either/or terms--our current president being the most prominent. For such, the concern is not factual accuracy but strength and noise. Rational analysis is risky, "weak," and boring.

So if someone claims you "hate America" because you criticize racist policies and leaders, you have to ask which principles they are applying to your case. Don't waste time affirming your patriotism or pointing out where you said something "nice" about America. The focus of political/policy discussions such as this should be on principles, whether the facts of a particular case are rightly understood, and whether inferences based upon those facts are logically consistent. Not your patriotism.

[Vas Deferens]

(08-16-2019, 02:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And Tlaib won't go even though they allowed her to visit her family....

I guess her grandma isn't all that important. All Israel is asking for is for her to not bad talk them while she's there.
Makes sense cause she's not going to for political reason, but personal ones. When she's back in the US, she can back talk all she wants, they can't stop her here. She's making this out to be that Israel is taking away her rights now.

It's all stupid and coming across now as nothing but political grandstanding and it will backfire. People aren't as stupid as she wants us to believe.

Not bad talk them? CHILD PLEASE

All they’re asking is for them not to publicize the fact that isreal is trying to squash US CITIZENS 1st Amendment rights.

[Bengalzona]

Initially, I tended to side with Tlaib on this as I think it is narrow-minded and bad policy to refuse a visit from a politician from an allied country, especially if they have criticized your country. You bypass the opportunity to demonstrate to them how they are wrong about you (and possibly make people start to wonder if maybe they were right). Even Ghaddafi and Kim Jung Il figured that out eventually.

Now I have to criticize Tlaib for the same reason. When you go to another country, you are a guest. When you go to Japan, it is customary to take your shoes off in a lot of places. In Saudi Arabia, apparently you are supposed to mouth kiss and hold hands with the Prince and King when you are hanging around them. In Israel, everyone is expected to observe Shabbat at sundown on Fridays. And if they ask you not to publicly request a boycott of their country, that sure sounds pretty reasonable to me.

And now, everyone loses because stubborn people refuse to sit down and discuss their differences for political hack reasons. What f***ing genius thinks that is a good idea?

Ultimately, it is all one big political horse and pony show. Nothing to see here folks.

[Dill]

(08-16-2019, 05:55 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Initially, I tended to side with Tlaib on this as I think it is narrow-minded and bad policy to refuse a visit from a politician from an allied country, especially if they have criticized your country. You bypass the opportunity to demonstrate to them how they are wrong about you (and possibly make people start to wonder if maybe they were right). Even Ghaddafi and Kim Jung Il figured that out eventually.

Now I have to criticize Tlaib for the same reason. When you go to another country, you are a guest. When you go to Japan, it is customary to take your shoes off in a lot of places. In Saudi Arabia, apparently you are supposed to mouth kiss and hold hands with the Prince and King when you are hanging around them. In Israel, everyone is expected to observe Shabbat at sundown on Fridays. And if they ask you not to publicly request a boycott of their country, that sure sounds pretty reasonable to me.

And now, everyone loses because stubborn people refuse to sit down and discuss their differences for political hack reasons. What f***ing genius thinks that is a good idea?

Ultimately, it is all one big political horse and pony show. Nothing to see here folks.

B! always glad when you pop up on the international threads. Question now:

When you go to the West Bank, an occupied territory, whose "guest" are you?

My take--In this case, Congresswomen were invited to Israel (and apparently Israeli-controlled territory) in what amounts to a PR move. The goal of the Israeli state is political--to manage international perception (especially American) of the occupation, through impressions created for its congressional "guests."

Not sure why Tlaib, whose family suffers under the occupation, should be expected to comply with this. Pretty sure Bibi/the Likud are unwilling to renounce control and illegal settlement of the West Bank. The less Americans know about this situation, the better, from their perspective.

So the case is not analogous to observing (or refraining from offending) local customs. Also, it is too soon to say everyone loses. There can still be a winner, unless a new Trump tweet diverts public discussion away from the myriad political questions raised by his apparent instigation of Bibi's ban.

[Bengalzona]

(08-16-2019, 06:11 PM)Dill Wrote: B! always glad when you pop up on the international threads.  Question now:

When you go to the West Bank, an occupied territory, whose "guest" are you?

My take--In this case, Congresswomen were invited to Israel (and apparently Israeli-controlled territory) in what amounts to a PR move. The goal of the Israeli state is political--to manage international perception (especially American) of the occupation, through impressions created for its congressional "guests."

Not sure why Tlaib, whose family suffers under the occupation, should be expected to comply with this. Pretty sure Bibi/the Likud are unwilling to renounce control and illegal settlement of the West Bank. The less Americans know about this situation, the better, from their perspective.

So the case is not analogous to observing (or refraining from offending) local customs. Also, it is too soon to say everyone loses. There can still be a winner, unless a new Trump tweet diverts public discussion away from the myriad political questions raised by his apparent instigation of Bibi's ban.

If you go to the occupied areas in the West Bank (as you know), you have to do it through Israel because they are occupying. Hence, you would be their guest.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a country to ask someone visiting them not to incite people within the country while they are visiting there. What if the President of Mexico came to the U.S. and, while he was visiting, he encouraged people in other countries to boycott America because of our treatment of Native Americans? We wouldn't appreciate that. Sort of breaks diplomatic protocol.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-16-2019, 05:17 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Not bad talk them? CHILD PLEASE

All they’re asking is for them not to publicize the fact that isreal is trying to squash US CITIZENS 1st Amendment rights.

I know I'm coming off as  Captain Contrarian with you in this thread, but you don't have 1st amendment rights when you're not on US soil.