(04-25-2024, 03:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: It's been my observation that women and other groups support the CIVILAINS in Palestine...not Hamas...as they believe they know what how feels to be part of a repressed group.
That's possible, and even probable in most cases. But I'm gonna put my money on many don't even know they latched onto a cause and are going full-board over something that if they knew the truth, they would retreat. Also, when you capitalize civilians, they voted many Hamas members into the legislature. Not all, and from what I've read is they didn't win the majority of the votes, but they are there because they were put there.
(04-25-2024, 12:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm pretty sure that's a tie right now. IDF has absolutely nothing to envy to Hamas in a standpoint of cruelty.
BTW, it's both right wing of their political spectrum. People acting through their own sacred book, the only thing that differ is the book.
It's the same coin just different sides.
Hmm, with posts like this I wonder why I keep pointing out that the left leaning posters continuously attempt to draw direct comparisons between a terrorist organization and the professional military of a democratic nation. This is called mitigating, you are literally mitigating the actions of a terrorist organization. It's abhorrent. They are not two sides of the same coin, they're not even both coins.
I wonder why I keep pointing out that a certain right wing poster continuously attempts to block direct comparison between the war crimes of a "terrorist organization" and those of "the professional military of a democratic nation" by claiming that acknowledging/discussing the truth is "mitigating the actions of a terrorist organization." Many IDF members are apparently much less worried about such "abhorrent" mitigation.
Your "no-mitigation" rule directly conflicts with the journalistic and legal standards of war reporting in a free society.
There is a similar debate inside the IDF and Israel at the moment, but it takes a rather different tack. Rather than prevent/stop people from talking about war crimes, the only serious alternative is prevent/stop committing war crimes. Otherwise lose the claim to be "the professional military of a democratic nation."
(04-25-2024, 12:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, ignore that this specious allegation of a IDF mass grave has been proven almost certainly false, focus on the fact a politician lies sometimes. You guys can't even own when you post Hamas propaganda like the IDF bombing a hospital or a mass grave caused by the IDF. If Hamas isn't paying you guys they should start, you're definitely busting your ass carrying water for them
Actually, nothing has been proven about the two mass graves in question, except that some of the dead appear to have been killed with their hands tied.
Why the emotional rush to judgement here? Odd way to call out "propaganda."
(04-25-2024, 03:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: It's been my observation that women and other groups support the CIVILAINS in Palestine...not Hamas...as they believe they know what how feels to be part of a repressed group.
Yeah, seems a lot of people just project their own stereotypes on the current protestors,
without any knowledge of what they are actually protesting. There are news suppliers to meet that demand too.
I've seen the same repeated in at least four protest cycles now, starting with civil rights and Vietnam.
20 years later, the protestors' view is the majority view.
(04-25-2024, 07:49 PM)Dill Wrote: I wonder why I keep pointing out that a certain right wing poster continuously attempts to block direct comparison between the war crimes of a "terrorist organization" and those of "the professional military of a democratic nation" by claiming that acknowledging/discussing the truth is "mitigating the actions of a terrorist organization." Many IDF members are apparently much less worried about such "abhorrent" mitigation.
Which "right wing poster" is that? You are correct though, no direct comparison is possible. One organization is predicated and founded on committing war crimes, Hamas, while the other is not, the IDF.
Quote:Your "no-mitigation" rule directly conflicts with the journalistic and legal standards of war reporting in a free society.
No, it does not. Both US and Japanese soldiers committed war crimes during WW2. Only a morally bankrupt apologist for Imperial Japan would dare equate the two as equals in this regard.
Quote:There is a similar debate inside the IDF and Israel at the moment, but it takes a rather different tack. Rather than prevent/stop people from talking about war crimes, the only serious alternative is prevent/stop committing war crimes. Otherwise lose the claim to be "the professional military of a democratic nation."
There's no danger of that except to apologists for Hamas.
Quote:Actually, nothing has been proven about the two mass graves in question, except that some of the dead appear to have been killed with their hands tied.
Indeed, which is why your next sentence is so interesting.
Quote:Why the emotional rush to judgement here? Odd way to call out "propaganda."
Why the "emotional" rush to judgment in the first post about the subject that you've never commented on? Oh yes, because you've not made on post about Hamas in this entire thread. Keep running from your record. It's here for all to see.
(04-25-2024, 08:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your "no-mitigation" rule directly conflicts with the journalistic and legal standards of war reporting in a free society.
No, it does not. Both US and Japanese soldiers committed war crimes during WW2. Only a morally bankrupt apologist for Imperial Japan would dare equate the two as equals in this regard.
You've misunderstood your own analogy.
Your position is rather like someone who blocks reporting/discussing US war crimes in WWII
by claiming those who do "mitigate" Japanese war crimes and are "bankrupt apologists" for Imperial Japan.
(04-25-2024, 08:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Indeed, which is why your next sentence is so interesting.
Why the emotional rush to judgement here? Odd way to call out "propaganda."
Why the "emotional" rush to judgment in the first post about the subject that you've never commented on? Oh yes, because you've not made on post about Hamas in this entire thread. Keep running from your record. It's here for all to see.
??? So you make emotional rushes to judgment because I have "not made a post about Hamas"?
(04-25-2024, 02:08 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Thanks for this. Going to look up the show when I get off work.
So, I had a chance to check this guy out when I got home and I believe this guy and his effort to educate the people with the truth. Being the son of the Hama's creator, I find it hard to find better credentials.
(04-25-2024, 01:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: This is on Youtube shorts. His name is Mosab Yousef, a son of a Hamas founder who later then defected to Israel helping them thwart terrorist acts by Hamas Palestinians, and then eventually received asylum in the U.S. in 2010 after it was shown he had no ties to Hamas and instead was helping to thwart them. (I hope that's all correct) Anyway this is an excerpt with him on the Dr. Phil show less than a month ago, and there were two-Pro Palestinian/Hamas supporters there as well.
He is a fascinating person to say the least, and I would say quite complex in his evolution as a person. Anyways thoughts on his takes on his former native homeland where he apparently has some insight on, at least I am guessing way more than most out there.
(04-25-2024, 01:02 PM)Millhouse Wrote: This is on Youtube shorts. His name is Mosab Yousef, a son of a Hamas founder who later then defected to Israel helping them thwart terrorist acts by Hamas Palestinians, and then eventually received asylum in the U.S. in 2010 after it was shown he had no ties to Hamas and instead was helping to thwart them. (I hope that's all correct) Anyway this is an excerpt with him on the Dr. Phil show less than a month ago, and there were two-Pro Palestinian/Hamas supporters there as well.
He is a fascinating person to say the least, and I would say quite complex in his evolution as a person. Anyways thoughts on his takes on his former native homeland where he apparently has some insight on, at least I am guessing way more than most out there.
My first thought is that the Green Prince's "insight" aligns rather closely with the ideology of right wing Israelis,
and not so much with facts on the ground.
E.g., the notion that there is no Palestinian people, and it is only "religion" that motivates their hatred. No need to discuss the occupation.
On Dr. Phil he described Israel as the "most amazing, most successful, and most productive country in the world
that don't harm anyone else."
On the same show, Dr. Phil showed a message he posted on social media about the college protests currently underway,
asserting that the job of universities is to teach students to think and to "test reality." To this was added some pretty
careless vetting of student protestors.
"Thinking" doesn't seem to be what Phil was doing though, as he says he doesn't need to understand the background
to Oct. 7, to know it is wrong to go into someone's home and burn a baby alive. But that's an "emotional test,"
not a reality test, and a standard applied to only one side. You can't ever "test reality" in social conflicts without "background."
Yes, it's the New York Post, have whatever opinion about that you choose. The content of the article is rather more important. It was rather clear someone was funding these, considering how many of the exact same tent these kids had.
I'm sure someone here will try and make hay over Soros being Jewish.
Yes, it's the New York Post, have whatever opinion about that you choose. The content of the article is rather more important. It was rather clear someone was funding these, considering how many of the exact same tent these kids had.
I'm sure someone here will try and make hay over Soros being Jewish.
LOL You know how to pick'em. Such deep insight into the conflict:
"Yo Soros! Buy me a tent and some sandwiches, and I'll protest whatever you say."
Brian Kilmeade was going on about the tents yesterday morning, but he hadn't linked them to Soros yet.
Soros isn't the only Jewish person funding organizations which fund the protestors.
But Post reporters know, all you have to say is "Soros" and it all falls into place for their readers.
The current conflict over Palestine reminds of the US Civil Rights struggle during the '60s.
The Right wing of US politics always sought to frame the protests as created by outside agitators,
some as far away as Moscow.
It could never be granted that basic injustice was what drove the protestors.
If they were college kids, they were frequently described as immature, spoiled, and ignorant.
20 years later, most EVERYONE was agreed segregation was wrong, and the real cause of protest.
(04-26-2024, 01:11 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL You know how to pick'em. Such deep insight into the conflict:
"Yo Soros! Buy me a tent and some sandwiches, and I'll protest whatever you say."
Brian Kilmeade was going on about the tents yesterday morning, but he hadn't linked them to Soros yet.
Soros isn't the only Jewish person funding organizations which fund the protestors.
But Post reporters know, all you have to say is "Soros" and it all falls into place for their readers.
Hahaha, you're so pathetically predictable. I suppose you read through the entire article before posting this, right? What a sophomoric characterization of the tent observation. You fancy yourself an intellectual and this is what you vomit up for us?
Quote:The current conflict over Palestine reminds of the US Civil Rights struggle during the '60s.
For you, sure. You're desperate to link these kids to a noble cause because they're clearly a bunch of uninformed bigots.
Quote:The Right wing of US politics always sought to frame the protests as created by outside agitators,
some as far away as Moscow.
Hmm, I seem to remember the same arguments being made about the violence at BLM protests.
Quote:It could never be granted that basic injustice was what drove the protestors.
If they were college kids, they were frequently described as immature, spoiled, and ignorant.
It's one thing to be protesting against blatantly racist laws and policies. Quite another to actively advocate for a terrorist group that routinely engages in gang rape, murder and kidnapping. A group that is openly, and virulently homophobic and misogynistic. Honestly, your attempts to link these protests to the civil rights marches is offensive on its face.
(04-26-2024, 01:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hahaha, you're so pathetically predictable. I suppose you read through the entire article before posting this, right? What a sophomoric characterization of the tent observation. You fancy yourself an intellectual and this is what you vomit up for us?
For you, sure. You're desperate to link these kids to a noble cause because they're clearly a bunch of uninformed bigots.
Hmm, I seem to remember the same arguments being made about the violence at BLM protests. https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/house/110775/documents/HHRG-116-JU00-20200610-SD019.pdf
It's one thing to be protesting against blatantly racist laws and policies. Quite another to actively advocate for a terrorist group that routinely engages in gang rape, murder and kidnapping. A group that is openly, and virulently homophobic and misogynistic. Honestly, your attempts to link these protests to the civil rights marches is offensive on its face.
Well you'd be right if the protestors were "advocating for Hamas." But they are not.
They are protesting the mistreatment of Palestinian civilians before and during the war.
Not hard to get from there to "noble cause," regardless of who buys their tents.
This is easy to discover. E.g., check out the links from Jewish students and faculty I've posted
on the "Columbia" thread. From this it's not clear why THEY, not YOU, are the "uniformed bigots."
But you've not taken the time to discover what they are protesting, or deliberately shied from that,
to police perspectives and share feelings. The result is one false claim. No factual comparison or fact checking whatsoever.
That Post article was pretty bad, tabloid level, as in superficial and designed less to report than to lead readers
to the "Right" conclusion via association. Inquiry into protestors motives is settled via association with a known "liberal."
Compare that to the historically informed and thoughtful reflection of Dino's article by Harari or mine by Masha Gessen.
So as usual, the primary difference between us concerns standards, the difference in
willingness to vet sources, to observe/investigate before judging, to argue from evidence
rather than to accuse and substitute emotion for evidence.
(04-26-2024, 05:22 PM)Dill Wrote: Well you'd be right if the protestors were "advocating for Hamas." But they are not.
Oh no, they are.
Plenty more where that came from btw.
Quote:They are protesting the mistreatment of Palestinian civilians before and during the war.
Not hard to get from there to "noble cause," regardless of who buys their tents.
In part. they are also calling for the elimination of Israel, telling Jewish students to "go back to Poland", advocating for the freedom of convicted terrorists, saying all "Zionists" should be killed. Also, you do get that someone buying the tents is rather obvious proof of this being astroturfed? Are you really that unintelligent that you can't put two and two together there?
Quote:This is easy to discover. E.g., check out the links from Jewish students and faculty I've posted
on the "Columbia" thread. From this it's not clear why THEY, not YOU, are the "uniformed bigots."
Interesting accusation, calling me a bigot. How do you substantiate that? Also, I'm sure your friend will be very upset about this name calling. he's very consistent in this regard.
Quote:But you've not taken the time to discover what they are protesting, or deliberately shied from that,
to police perspectives and share feelings. The result is one false claim. No factual comparison or fact checking whatsoever.
That Post article was pretty bad, tabloid level, as in superficial and designed less to report than to lead readers
to the "Right" conclusion via association. Inquiry into protestors motives is settled via association with a known "liberal."
Compare that to the historically informed and thoughtful reflection of Dino's article by Harari or mine by Masha Gessen.
I'm sorry it didn't live up to the very high Dill standards. Maybe if it was twenty pages longer?
Quote:So as usual, the primary differen
Quote:ce between us concerns standards, the difference in
willingness to vet sources, to observe/investigate before judging, to argue from evidence
rather than to accuse and substitute emotion for evidence.
No, the primary difference between us is that one, I can actually identify terrorists, and I, unlike yourself, do not carry water for them.
Remember during the civil rights movement when Dr. King and his followers harassed students at school to the point they no longer felt safe attending? Seeing that recreated today literally gave me the chills. Good job kids!
Once I was off the bus and headed to campus I heard chants, some of them familiar to me by now, like "We don't want no Zionists here" and a new one, "We are Hamas."
I was approached by a masked student who took out his phone and pulled up the Hamas insignia on it – two crossed swords in front of the Dome of the Rock mosque. He shoved it in my face and pointed at it saying "I am with them." We asked him why he was even there, and he said, "For you!" pointing at us.
(04-26-2024, 05:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh no, they are.
Plenty more where that came from btw.
In part. they are also calling for the elimination of Israel, telling Jewish students to "go back to Poland", advocating for the freedom of convicted terrorists, saying all "Zionists" should be killed. Also, you do get that someone buying the tents is rather obvious proof of this being astroturfed? Are you really that unintelligent that you can't put two and two together there?
Interesting accusation, calling me a bigot. How do you substantiate that? Also, I'm sure your friend will be very upset about this name calling. he's very consistent in this regard.
I'm sorry it didn't live up to the very high Dill standards. Maybe if it was twenty pages longer?
No, the primary difference between us is that one, I can actually identify terrorists, and I, unlike yourself, do not carry water for them.
I looked at all those signs. They must spell "support hamas" differently that the rest of the world.
Warning: Reading signatures may hurt your feelings.
(04-26-2024, 01:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The Right wing of US politics always sought to frame the protests as created by outside agitators,
some as far away as Moscow.
This is a good point to address: not "the same arguments" because--
Your link does NOT argue/show that BLM protests were CREATED by outside agitators.
Rather it considers the POSSIBILITY that right-wing accelerationists may have joined BLM protests
at points to "accelerate" chaos and damage. And it takes care to conclude that the "driving sentiment" of the protests should not be "minimized or ignored." I.e., the protests arose from
an actual, verifiable problem, not one invented and steered by people outside BLM.
Such people would also be attracted to current campus protests, and it would serve their purpose
to be carelessly or deliberately taken as representative of the protestors.
The point of MLK's "Letter from Birmingham Jail" (1963) was to address the charge of "outside agitators,"
which was being leveled against the civil rights movement. He was not speaking of a few violent
agitators inciting violence during protests, but to the claim that segregation did not justify the protest he'd just
led in Birmingham, either because the solution was worse than the problem, or because the whole civil rights
show was being steered by "communists" and/or "Jews" situated outside the South. A fake problem
concocted to make the US look bad.
Channel 12 said that high on Hamas’s expected list is Abdullah Barghouti, nicknamed “Hamas’s engineer,” and considered the terror organization’s biggest explosives expert with the possible exception of Yahya Ayyash, who was assassinated in 1996. Barghouti was responsible for planning terror attacks such as the 2003 Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing in Jerusalem that killed 16 people including seven children and a pregnant woman; the Café Moment suicide bombing in 2002 that killed 11; and the 2002 Hebrew University bombing that killed nine people, including five US citizens.
In total, Barghouti was responsible for the murder of 66 Israelis. He was sentenced to 67 life sentences, the most ever given to a Palestinian prisoner.
Also on Hamas’s likely list, according to the report, is Abbas Al-Sayed, the commander of Hamas’s military wing in the West Bank city of Tulkarem. He planned the 2002 Park Hotel suicide bombing in Netanya during Passover, which killed 30 mostly elderly Israelis and injured 140,and became the deadliest Palestinian act of terror during the Second Intifada. Al-Sayed was sentenced to 35 life sentences.
Hamas is also expected to seek to free Ibrahim Hamed, who is considered the most dangerous prisoner currently held by Israel. He was the commander of Hamas’s military wing throughout the West Bank and was behind numerous terror acts. Hamed was ultimately convicted for the murder of 46 civilians and was given 54 life sentences.
(04-26-2024, 05:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh no, they are.
Plenty more where that came from btw.
I see signs saying "Resistance to Occupation is a Right" and "free palestinian prisoners."
"Ceasefire in Gaza" = advocating for Hamas?
Plenty more would prove, what, they are protesting for Palestinian Human rights?
NB: just saw your post to Dino. So there are Hamas prisoners among the many thousands, including children.
THAT's how they're "advocating for Hamas"? Jeezus.
(04-26-2024, 05:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In part. they are also calling for the elimination of Israel, telling Jewish students to "go back to Poland", advocating for the freedom of convicted terrorists, saying all "Zionists" should be killed.
The Jewish students participating in the protests are doing this?
(04-26-2024, 05:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Also, you do get that someone buying the tents is rather obvious proof of this being astroturfed? Are you really that unintelligent that you can't put two and two together there?
No I don't "get" that. To get there you need to explain why students, or anyone, would camp out on the ground just before finals, to get what--a tent?
Why would Soros "astroturf" a movent supposedly supporting death to the Jews?? How does this make sense to you?
(04-26-2024, 05:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is easy to discover. E.g., check out the links from Jewish students and faculty I've posted
on the "Columbia" thread. From this it's not clear why THEY, not YOU, are the "uniformed bigots."
Interesting accusation, calling me a bigot. How do you substantiate that? Also, I'm sure your friend will be very upset about this name calling. he's very consistent in this regard.
You got that I was quoting you, right? The accusation of uninformed bigotry originates with you.
I ask how YOU exempt YOURSELF from YOUR charge, when the students appear to
know more about the origins of the war and are defending Palestinian human rights.
So how do you? More emotional flailing and accusation here will just send the wrong message.
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