Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(05-08-2024, 12:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote:[url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Israel-Hamas-War-Superthread?pid=1480605#pid1480605][/url]You are offering me the very general assessment of an anonymous Clinton White House historian, one which apparently was not maintained/revised after 2000, since it makes no mention of which features of Oslo remained in place nor how the peace process continued after the Second Intifada, limping along for another 15 years, producing at least one more agreement between Israel and the PA, the 2005 Agreement on Movement an Access.  
Your source does not reflect the consensus of most Israeli, European, and US PROEFSSIONAL historians at the moment. I can establish that, if you are interested.
Nor does it reflect the historical record, as currently understood. The first bolded offers the primary clue as to why your WH assessment was already outdated, or steadfastly myopic. 
Absent from this also are the devilish details, which were available in 2000, like
1) the massive imbalance of power between the sides, 
2) the causes of the "string of terror attacks" which supposedly undermined Labour elections, and 
3) the details of Barak's "concessions" and Arafat's grounds for rejection.
Finally, this does not refute my claim that Sharon and Netanyahu tanked the peace process. To understand what happened, you need to set aside the rush to blame for a moment and understand, first, what was/is at stake for each side in the Oslo in the first five "permanent status" issues. And then how each side exercised what power it had during and after the five year implementation phase in a progression of verifiable causes and effects. Only then does the arc of failure and its primary causes become clear.
That's a lot of words to say "I don't like your source."  You'll have to take it up with the US government.  You know, that entity that you quote when it suits you and disregard when it suits you.

Hmmm. You raise a the essential methodological question here: what should "suit" ANYONE by way of historical sources?
 
When deciding who, if anyone, undermined the Oslo peace talks, I'd like primary evidence (documents, memos, agreements, intel reports, Barak's "concessions" and Arafat's grounds of rejection). Also material that covers the process well past 2000 (later agreements and demands like Olmert's "Recognize Israel as a 'Jewish' state" in 2007.) Then I want to know how the best historians assess causes and effect from different angles, drawing on their vast background knowledge. Hence "a lot of words" to articulate those requirements, which are not "ideological" but involve the usual comparative method, respect for chronology and professional consensus, etc. From there I'll make my own decision, which would have to be consistent with the historical record.

Thus a WH page for Clinton administration public relations in 2000--very far from primary sources--does not "suit" me because it cannot meet these non-ideological criteria (unless modern historical method is "ideological").

But it didn't take you a lot of words to say this source suited you just fine. No comparative method needed.
But you implied your choice was "objective," not mine.

[Dill]

(05-08-2024, 12:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote:Palestinians were violently displaced by hundreds of thousands of European and Russian Jews who traveled to Palestine
to take the land of those already living there by violence.

You talking about United Nations Resolution 181?  So now you're using the United Nations as a source, but only when it agrees with you as well.  You're double standards are incredibly one sided.

Apparently you don't know what UN Resolution 181 was. It proposed a partition of the British Mandate, which describes administration of the partition and state boundaries.  https://web.archive.org/web/20171010090147/https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/7F0AF2BD897689B785256C330061D253.
So no I wasn't "appealing" to that. But the UN is part of the factual record. Hard to discuss the Arab-Israeli conflict without reference to it; it would "agree" with me only when I needed factual sources regarding UN proceedings.  

So nothing in my sentence above suggests I was using the UN as a "source" at all, much less "only when it agrees with [me]." 

What I was "appealing" to is the current consensus of Israeli historians, from Benny Morris on the right to Illan Pappe on the left, which agrees that Palestinians were outgunned, overwhelmed and driven from their land by hundreds of thousands of migrants from Europe, beginning the last week of Nov. 1947, producing over 250,000 refugees and a number of massacres in a campaign of ethnic cleansing which began BEFORE supposed "aggressor nations" came to their aid.

I have explained this history to you before, at least twice, and you have either disregarded it or faulted the Palestinians for not letting the Israeli's "chill" on the land they took by violence.Israelis have a right to take land by violence; Palestinians don't. How is that not a double standard?

You ignore the ethnic cleansing and repeat that Arab nations who came to their aid were "aggressors" who got their asses kicked.
How is that not disregarding the factual record when it suits you.  I.e., what you accuse me of without proof.

[GMDino]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68975398

Quote:Battles in east Rafah as Israel says key Kerem Shalom aid crossing has reopened
9 hours ago
By David Gritten,
BBC News

Share
Anadolu Palestinians cram on to a van after deciding to flee Rafah, as Israeli forces continue a ground operation in the southern Gaza city (8 May 2024)Anadolu
There has been fighting and bombardment on the outskirts of the southern Gaza city of Rafah, as Israel said the Kerem Shalom crossing had reopened for aid.

The Israeli military said troops had killed Hamas fighters in eastern Rafah as part of a "precise" counterterrorism operation. Hamas also reported battles.

Earlier, the military said lorries had reached Kerem Shalom, a key aid route closed after a rocket attack on Sunday.

However, a UN agency said no supplies had entered through the crossing yet.

The UN had expressed alarm on Tuesday over what it called Israel's "choking off" of Gaza's two main aid arteries, after Israeli troops took full control of the Palestinian side of the nearby Rafah crossing with Egypt.


The US also said that aid was unable to move through either crossing on Wednesday because of logistical and security concerns on the ground. State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller described the situation as "unacceptable".

Meanwhile, negotiations on a new ceasefire and hostage release deal have resumed in Cairo, with the US saying it believed a revised Hamas proposal could lead to a breakthrough.

And the Israeli military played down the significance of the US government's decision to halt a shipment of powerful bombs over concerns that Israel was about to launch a major offensive on Rafah city.

Seven months into its war with Hamas in Gaza, Israel has insisted victory is impossible without taking Rafah.

But with more than a million displaced Palestinians taking refuge there from the fighting elsewhere, the UN and Western powers have warned that an all-out assault could have devastating humanitarian consequences.


US reveals it paused shipment of bombs for Israel
‘Sustainable calm’ proposal splits Israel and Hamas
Bowen: Netanyahu knows Hamas survival amounts to his own defeat

Plumes of smoke from Israeli air strikes were seen over Rafah and heavy gunfire was heard on Wednesday, as the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said troops were continuing a limited offensive in eastern areas.

An IDF statement said they had "eliminated terrorists and uncovered terrorist infrastructure, as well as underground shafts in several locations" during several encounters over the past day. They were also carrying out raids on the Gazan side of the Rafah crossing, it added.

The IDF also said aircraft had struck more than 100 "terror targets" throughout Gaza over the past day.

Residents of Rafah reported intense bombardment overnight and video footage on Wednesday morning showed people searching through the rubble of a building destroyed in one of the strikes.


"We are in a safe area according to the army's map - an area without operations," neighbour Reda al-Najili told Reuters news agency.

"We were sitting when suddenly the explosion happened. Our neighbour's house was gone, and our house was all damaged internally. In the house there are only civilians. Women died. Those who were injured were all children."

Palestinian medics also said seven members of one family, including five children, were killed in an overnight strike on a home in the Zeitoun neighbourhood of Gaza City, in the north of the territory.

The Israeli military has ordered the evacuation of an estimated 100,000 residents and displaced people in a number of eastern neighbourhoods and told them they will find field hospitals, tents and aid in an "expanded humanitarian area", which stretches north from al-Mawasi to the city of Khan Younis and central town of Deir al-Balah.

Meanwhile, the director general of the World Health Organization said one of the three hospitals in Rafah, al-Najjar, was "no longer functioning due to the ongoing hostilities in its vicinity and the military operation in Rafah".


Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus also warned that the partially functioning Kuwaiti and Emirati hospitals would soon run out of fuel unless the UN received a delivery. "Hospitals in the south of Gaza only have three days of fuel left, which means services may soon come to a halt," he added.

The WHO has also said the European Gaza hospital in Khan Younis, where critical patients from Rafah are referred, may also become unreachable.

A displaced man sheltering at the hospital told BBC Arabic's Gaza Today programme that life was very difficult for him.

"I suffer from diabetes, high blood pressure, and osteoarthritis - a matter which means the displacement causes a great deal of suffering for me," he said. "We hope to return to our land in Gaza and that everyone will set up a tent in the place of his home and settle back there."

Gaza evacuation map

On Wednesday morning, the IDF announced the reopening of Kerem Shalom for humanitarian aid.

"Trucks from Egypt carrying humanitarian aid, including food, water, shelter equipment, medicine and medical equipment donated by the international community are already arriving at the crossing," it said.

"After a thorough security inspection by the security personnel... the equipment will be transferred to the Gazan side of the crossing."

The military also said the recently reopened Erez crossing with northern Gaza was continuing to operate.

However, the UN aid agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa - which is the largest humanitarian organisation in Gaza - reported that it had not received any Gaza aid via Kerem Shalom or Rafah, which remains closed.


"We're not receiving any aid into the Gaza Strip, the Rafah crossing area has ongoing military operations - there have been continued bombardments in this area throughout the day," said Scott Anderson, senior deputy director of Unrwa affairs in Gaza.

"No fuel or aid has entered into Gaza Strip and this is disastrous for the humanitarian response."

An Israeli government spokesman disputed Unrwa's assertion and insisted aid was going through Kerem Shalom.

"It is open and I would ask the UN why, day in and day out, there is so much surplus on the Gaza side of Kerem Shalom that is not being distributed," Avi Hyman told a briefing.

EPA File photo showing Egyptian aid lorries queuing at the Israeli-controlled Kerem Shalom crossing with Gaza (25 April 2024)EPA
(File photo) The Israeli military said aid lorries from Egypt were already arriving at the Kerem Shalom crossing

Kerem Shalom is the key entry point for aid into Gaza, but Israel closed it on Sunday after four Israeli soldiers were killed by rockets launched by Hamas from the area of the Rafah crossing, according to the Israeli military.

Another six projectiles were fired at Kerem Shalom from the Rafah area on Tuesday, but no casualties were reported.

The second attack happened hours after Israeli tanks rolled into the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing.

UN Secretary General António Guterres said he was "disturbed and distressed" by the Israeli military activity in Rafah.

He also warned that the closure of both Rafah and Kerem Shalom crossings was "especially damaging to an already dire humanitarian situation" and demanded that they be reopened immediately.


Mr Guterres urged Israel and Hamas to "spare no effort" to agree a ceasefire, warning that the fate of the entire region was facing a "decisive moment".

On Monday, Israel declared that a three-phase proposal for a ceasefire and the release of hostages approved by Hamas was unacceptable.

The White House spokesman, John Kirby, said a revised text Hamas had since put forward suggested remaining gaps could "absolutely be closed".

Israel launched a military campaign in Gaza to destroy Hamas in response to the group's cross-border attack on southern Israel on 7 October, during which about 1,200 people were killed and 252 others were taken hostage.

More than 34,840 people have been killed in Gaza since then, according to the territory's Hamas-run health ministry.


A deal agreed in November saw Hamas release 105 hostages in return for a week-long ceasefire and some 240 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. Israel says 128 hostages are unaccounted for, 36 of whom are presumed dead.

[Luvnit2]

Biden stops supplying Congress approved weapons to Israel.

Why did Biden lobby for the massive aid to Israel if he was not going to supply much needed weapons and ammo to Israel.

Biden lied to Congress and lied to our only ally in the middle east. Saudi Arabia was considering working with Israel and the US, but why would they do it now as Biden cowers to his base and stops helping Israel in its biggest tie of need.

Biden once again on the wrong side of foreign policy.

Israel needs to destroy Hamas; they are a threat to their Democracy and existence. Since US is not helping, they should cut off all aid to Gaza, choke them off with lack of food and water.

Palestinians have a choice, fight Hamas or figure out a way to surrender to Israel soldiers for the safety and wellbeing of their families.

[GMDino]

(05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Biden stops supplying Congress approved weapons to Israel.

Why did Biden lobby for the massive aid to Israel if he was not going to supply much needed weapons and ammo to Israel.

Biden lied to Congress and lied to our only ally in the middle east. Saudi Arabia was considering working with Israel and the US, but why would they do it now as Biden cowers to his base and stops helping Israel in its biggest tie of need.

Biden once again on the wrong side of foreign policy.

Israel needs to destroy Hamas; they are a threat to their Democracy and existence. Since US is not helping, they should cut off all aid to Gaza, choke them off with lack of food and water.

Palestinians have a choice, fight Hamas or figure out a way to surrender to Israel soldiers for the safety and wellbeing of their families.

Because he is trying to deescalate the conflict.

He is concerned with the civilians who are suffering.

Apparently you fall into the camp that says just let them suffer while trying to reach the impossible goal of "destroying Hamas".

Sad.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-09-2024, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Because he is trying to deescalate the conflict.

He is concerned with the civilians who are suffering.

Apparently you fall into the camp that says just let them suffer while trying to reach the impossible goal of "destroying Hamas".

Sad.

He's trying not to lose Michigan and that's it.  You guys will swallow anything you're spoon fed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-08-2024, 07:21 PM)Dill Wrote: Hmmm. You raise a the essential methodological question here: what should "suit" ANYONE by way of historical sources?
 
When deciding who, if anyone, undermined the Oslo peace talks, I'd like primary evidence (documents, memos, agreements, intel reports, Barak's "concessions" and Arafat's grounds of rejection). Also material that covers the process well past 2000 (later agreements and demands like Olmert's "Recognize Israel as a 'Jewish' state" in 2007.) Then I want to know how the best historians assess causes and effect from different angles, drawing on their vast background knowledge. Hence "a lot of words" to articulate those requirements, which are not "ideological" but involve the usual comparative method, respect for chronology and professional consensus, etc. From there I'll make my own decision, which would have to be consistent with the historical record.

Thus a WH page for Clinton administration public relations in 2000--very far from primary sources--does not "suit" me because it cannot meet these non-ideological criteria (unless modern historical method is "ideological").

But it didn't take you a lot of words to say this source suited you just fine. No comparative method needed.
But you implied your choice was "objective," not mine.

Tell you what, I'm going to pose the same question to you that I did to Bel.  You are given ultimate authority to impose a settlement on the situation in question.  You can move people freely and without violence and redraw the map as you see fit.  The only thing you cannot do is change hearts and minds.  Given those criteria, what would be your solution that would end this conflict?  I am honestly interested in knowing. 

[GMDino]

(05-09-2024, 11:34 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He's trying not to lose Michigan and that's it.  You guys will swallow anything you're spoon fed.

Oh, there is probably some politics in everything a President does.

There is also what I said.

But you don't care because you want the destruction of Hamas no matter what the cost of human life and no matter how impossible that end goal is.

I'd love to have no more Hamas, or terrorists, or war, or power hungry world leaders with huge armies and egos to match.  Not gonna happen.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-09-2024, 11:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, there is probably some politics in everything a President does.

Odd that you wouldn't mention that then.  

Quote:There is also what I said.

But you don't care because you want the destruction of Hamas no matter what the cost of human life and no matter how impossible that end goal is.

I'd love to have no more Hamas, or terrorists, or war, or power hungry world leaders with huge armies and egos to match.  Not gonna happen.

It is indeed unfortunate that Hamas continues to cower among the civilian populace rather than fight the IDF while in uniform.  Unfortunately, using your logic Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would still be in existence as the civilian casualties inflicted on those countries dwarfs those in Gaza.  All you and people like Biden are doing is proving to Hamas that their strategy works.  They can attack Israel, then hide among the civilian population in order to maximize civilian casualties and then rely on gullible "progressive" westerners to protest in their favor.  It's insane how much you and people like you are being cynically manipulated with absolutely no clue, even when it's directly pointed out to you.

[Luvnit2]

(05-09-2024, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Because he is trying to deescalate the conflict.

He is concerned with the civilians who are suffering.

Apparently you fall into the camp that says just let them suffer while trying to reach the impossible goal of "destroying Hamas".

Sad.

I fall into the camp to do all we can to get rid of a terrorist organization who killed over 1200 Israel women, elderly, babies and men on Oct. 7 during a cease fire. I fall into the camp to not sacrifice Jews to win a state. There are Democrats who agree.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/democrats-blow-up-biden-halting-weapons-shipments-israel

[*pally*]

(05-09-2024, 12:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I fall into the camp to do all we can to get rid of a terrorist organization who killed over 1200 Israel women, elderly, babies and men on Oct. 7 during a cease fire. I fall into the camp to not sacrifice Jews to win a state. There are Democrats who agree.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/democrats-blow-up-biden-halting-weapons-shipments-israel

so how many Palestinian babies, women, elderly should die in response?

[GMDino]

(05-09-2024, 12:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I fall into the camp to do all we can to get rid of a terrorist organization who killed over 1200 Israel women, elderly, babies and men on Oct. 7 during a cease fire. I fall into the camp to not sacrifice Jews to win a state. There are Democrats who agree.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/democrats-blow-up-biden-halting-weapons-shipments-israel

Israel has been doing pretty good without the new shipment.

This isn't Ukraine going against a bigger country.

The number of deaths in Gaza has far outstripped the number of deaths on October 7.  Both are awful.

You want humans to suffer.  That's on you.

[Luvnit2]

(05-09-2024, 12:06 PM)pally Wrote: so how many Palestinian babies, women, elderly should die in response?

As many as needed to eliminate future generations of Jews and Palestinians (being used a human shields) to live in a safe environment.

Israel has given ample notice to get out of harm's way, so they are either with Hamas or being held as hostage by Hamas. Either way, a terrorist organization has poisoned their minds or the only way to free hostages is to eliminate Hamas.

[Luvnit2]

(05-09-2024, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: Israel has been doing pretty good without the new shipment.

This isn't Ukraine going against a bigger country.

The number of deaths in Gaza has far outstripped the number of deaths on October 7.  Both are awful.

You want humans to suffer.  That's on you.

No, it is on Hamas and Iran, not a single life on me. 

I am not naive enough to believe it is a good idea to negotiate with a terrorist organization holding American hostage for over 7 months. I ma not naive and know if Hamas is permitted to function, many people on both sides will die in the future.

You never address the loss of life in Israel from rockets being sent into Israel by Hamas and Hezbollah. Why? Israeli soldier's deaths as well. Yet, you believe the numbers reported by a terrorist organization about civilian deaths when the numbers have been confirmed. Simple question, does it embellish Hamas to inflate civilian deaths and deflate Hams fighter deaths?

[GMDino]

(05-09-2024, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: The number of deaths in Gaza has far outstripped the number of deaths on October 7.  Both are awful.

You want humans to suffer.  That's on you.

(05-09-2024, 02:09 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: No, it is on Hamas and Iran, not a single life on me. 

(05-09-2024, 12:06 PM)pally Wrote: so how many Palestinian babies, women, elderly should die in response?

(05-09-2024, 02:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: As many as needed to eliminate future generations of Jews and Palestinians (being used a human shields) to live in a safe environment.

(05-09-2024, 02:09 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You never address the loss of life in Israel from rockets being sent into Israel by Hamas and Hezbollah. Why? Israeli soldier's deaths as well. Yet, you believe the numbers reported by a terrorist organization about civilian deaths when the numbers have been confirmed. Simple question, does it embellish Hamas to inflate civilian deaths and deflate Hams fighter deaths?

(05-09-2024, 12:09 PM)GMDino Wrote: The number of deaths in Gaza has far outstripped the number of deaths on October 7.  Both are awful.

You and your buddy SSF need new material. It's getting hard to tell you apart.

[Dill]

(05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Israel needs to destroy Hamas; they are a threat to their Democracy and existence. Since US is not helping, they should cut off all aid to Gaza, choke them off with lack of food and water.

Wow. I think this may foreshadow Trump's foreign policy.

(05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Palestinians have a choice, fight Hamas or figure out a way to surrender to Israel soldiers for the safety and wellbeing of their families.

That's the trick in these large free fire zones, isn't it? Even three shirtless escaped hostages with a white flag couldn't figure that out.

Then there is the question of whether surrender means "safety and well being."

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-disturbing-reports-north-gaza-mass-detentions-ill-treatment-and-enforced-disappearances-possibly-thousands-palestinians
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-palestinian-detainees.html

[Dill]

(05-09-2024, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Tell you what, I'm going to pose the same question to you that I did to Bel.  You are given ultimate authority to impose a settlement on the situation in question.  You can move people freely and without violence and redraw the map as you see fit.  The only thing you cannot do is change hearts and minds.  Given those criteria, what would be your solution that would end this conflict?  I am honestly interested in knowing. 

Kudos for a great thought experiment, which I'd like to explore,
including the question of whether that is the right question, 

and how "end this conflict" is  to be defined--no more violence, a general peace with a few disrupters on each side,
a reduction of violence over time (a decade, two decades?) to almost none?

It forces me to look at all sides from a different angle. 

Do I FORCE people to move first, or to sit at the table together first? 

 Give me a day or so to work something up.

In the interim: How long does my authority last? The answer to that will determine a lot.

And if I can "move people freely without violence"--that means my authority is such they won't fight back?
If this is like magic, people's minds are blanked and then suddenly they wake up in a new place, like
Israel West Bank settlers suddenly Scotty-beamed into new homes in Tel Aviv, then I foresee an impossible test.

[*pally*]

(05-09-2024, 01:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Israel needs to destroy Hamas; they are a threat to their Democracy and existence. Since US is not helping, they should cut off all aid to Gaza, choke them off with lack of food and water.

 

Just ask the few survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto how the Nazis did the exact same thing to them. Hell, the Germans even used the "security" card as the initial reason to round up the Jewish population and imprison them in the Ghetto... when that didn't work and the Jews fought back...they were annihilated in Auschwitz

I'm glad to see that our President has humanity and will send defensive weapons to Israel but not an unlimited supply of offensive.

[masonbengals fan]

Give Joe credit. In his decades of "public service" (i.e. creating generational wealth for his family), he has been on the wrong side of every single foreign policy debate.

That takes some doing.

[StoneTheCrow]

(05-10-2024, 08:37 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Give Joe credit. In his decades of "public service" (i.e. creating generational wealth for his family), he has been on the wrong side of every single foreign policy debate.

That takes some doing.

Robert, that you?

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/01/robert-gates-thinks-joe-biden-hasnt-stopped-being-wrong-40-years/356785/