Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-13-2024, 06:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: 40% of Gaza's population (prior to the current events, hard to say what it looks like, now) was 14 or under.

Of 2,098,389 people in 2023 (according to Statista), 1,479,221 were under age 30. So in 2006, the last time there was an election and Hamas took control and established their autocratic regime, they were a tween or younger, if they were even alive. I mean, 1,087,693 of them are under 20, so more than half weren't even weened from the tit if they were even alive.

So this population had nothing to do with putting Hamas in power and have done nothing but suffered under this autocratic regime that has, for the record, been propped up and elevated by Netanyahu's government.

They are trapped in Gaza. The access in and out of the area is controlled by Israel. Their access to the outside world is restricted by what Hamas will allow for and so far as Israel allows as well. What they are taught is that the situation they are in is due to Israeli occupation and most have no way of finding out any different.

Unless they take violent action against Israeli forces, then they do not deserve to die in this conflict.

But to me, the point of them not voting them in is irrelevant.

It comes down to one question.

Do you support Hamas? You don't have to vote for them to support them.

If you do support them then you cannot complain when Israel comes to kill them and ends up killing you in the process, when Hamas holds its genocidal view towards Israel.

You bring up a point about them essentially being taught to hate Israel. While I get your point, it doesn't matter. 

If you support a group that wants to annihilate another group, you can't complain when that group retaliates in an undesirable way,, regardless of why you believe whatever it is you believe. You chose to support genocide, therefore you bare the consequences of that.

If you choose genocide over dying at the hands of Hamas, you chose that and bare the consequence of that decision.

If you choose genocide over fleeing for your life and possubly starving to death, you chose that.

If you choose genocide over attempting to cross into Israel and get killed by Israeli forces, you chose that.

Again, I'm not saying either of those choices are easy. All I'm saying is you don't get a get out of jail free card because staying with a genocidal group felt like a better idea than risking your life and attempting to flee to a better situation. 

Sure, that better situation might not come to fruition. But deciding to stay with those that wish me dead is still your choice regardless of the circumstance. By doing so you've effectively told me my life is worth less than taking the risk of fleeing. If death is the response to that, then that is your repercussion to devaluing my life.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-13-2024, 09:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think you severely underestimate the limitations put on the people in Gaza. They have nowhere they can go. They do not have weapons to fight their oppressive regime. They are literally walled in on all sides by land and their ports are controlled by heavy handed regimes. They are far from "living freely."

Additionally, let's say such a thing happened here in the US.  The amount of upheaval to your life in every single facet of it would be tremendous, and we can move freely.  That's why most people did not flee Germany during the late 20's early thirties.  It's a huge step, one few are willing to make.  It's much easier to convince yourself that things will eventually get better.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-13-2024, 09:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Additionally, let's say such a thing happened here in the US.  The amount of upheaval to your life in every single facet of it would be tremendous, and we can move freely.  That's why most people did not flee Germany during the late 20's early thirties.  It's a huge step, one few are willing to make.  It's much easier to convince yourself that things will eventually get better.

Let’s say you and your family live in a giant house, and across the street from you is a family of 20 people living in another giant house. Within that family of 20 people are 6 people that want to completely murder you and your family and bulldoze your house so they can build their own house where yours was.

Knowing that there’s people in this house that want to kill you and and tear down your house to put their own house in place of yours, you decide to blockade them and prevent them from moving freely across the street to your house. You don’t prevent their movement completely though, you just severely limit it.
To show their proportional way of thinking, these people decide to spend 20 years shooting over 20,000 rockets at your house, which amounts to around an impressive 1,000 rockets per year.

But luckily for you, you have an Iron Dome system installed in your yard that intercepts most of the missiles that reach your house over these 20 years. Not all of them, but most of them. Unfortunately, some of the missiles have gotten through over the years and killed your wife, your dad, and a couple cousins. Yet, you still decide not to wipe them off the face of the earth.

These people also commit about a hundred or so suicide bombings over these 20 years against your house. Not all of them are successful. But some of them are. Unfortunately, the ones that are successful have killed one of your sons, two more of your cousins and your father. But you still don’t completely wipe them off the face of the earth.

One day these people decide, "you know what, screw it. We’re gonna paratroop in on their asses and kill and rape as many of the people living in that house as we possibly can. And when they run into the bomb shelter in the basement of the house we’re gonna throw grenades in to get those cowards."

So, with their fair proportional way of thinking, they do just that.

They paratroop in on your house and while your family is watching the Superbowl they're ambushed and murdered and raped.

I say all this because I find it a bit odd when the “proportional” argument is brought up. How exactly do you proportionally respond to this? How do you proportonally respond to attempted genocide?

Let’s be real for a second here people. There have been over 20,000 rockets fired at Israel. The only reason Israel  didn’t invade Gaza sooner is because they have the Iron Dome and because a lot of the missles being fired have been inaccurate. If Israel didn’t have Iron Dome, and the Palestinians had more accurate measures, they would have been pounding Israel into the ground over these last 20 years and decimating their communities.

The best they could do instead was what they did on October 7th and now they're getting what they have been asking for for 20 years. If you decided to stay there and die with Hamas, you chose that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-14-2024, 02:52 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Let’s say you and your family live in a giant house, and across the street from you is a family of 20 people living in another giant house. Within that family of 20 people are 6 people that want to completely murder you and your family and bulldoze your house so they can build their own house where yours was.

Knowing that there’s people in this house that want to kill you and and tear down your house to put their own house in place of yours, you decide to blockade them and prevent them from moving freely across the street to your house. You don’t prevent their movement completely though, you just severely limit it.
To show their proportional way of thinking, these people decide to spend 20 years shooting over 20,000 rockets at your house, which amounts to around an impressive 1,000 rockets per year.

But luckily for you, you have an Iron Dome system installed in your yard that intercepts most of the missiles that reach your house over these 20 years. Not all of them, but most of them. Unfortunately, some of the missiles have gotten through over the years and killed your wife, your dad, and a couple cousins. Yet, you still decide not to wipe them off the face of the earth.

These people also commit about a hundred or so suicide bombings over these 20 years against your house. Not all of them are successful. But some of them are. Unfortunately, the ones that are successful have killed one of your sons, two more of your cousins and your father. But you still don’t completely wipe them off the face of the earth.

One day these people decide, "you know what, screw it. We’re gonna paratroop in on their asses and kill and rape as many of the people living in that house as we possibly can. And when they run into the bomb shelter in the basement of the house we’re gonna throw grenades in to get those cowards."

So, with their fair proportional way of thinking, they do just that.

They paratroop in on your house and while your family is watching the Superbowl they're ambushed and murdered and raped.

I say all this because I find it a bit odd when the “proportional” argument is brought up. How exactly do you proportionally respond to this? How do you proportonally respond to attempted genocide?

Let’s be real for a second here people. There have been over 20,000 rockets fired at Israel. The only reason Israel  didn’t invade Gaza sooner is because they have the Iron Dome and because a lot of the missles being fired have been inaccurate. If Israel didn’t have Iron Dome, and the Palestinians had more accurate measures, they would have been pounding Israel into the ground over these last 20 years and decimating their communities.

The best they could do instead was what they did on October 7th and now they're getting what they have been asking for for 20 years. If you decided to stay there and die with Hamas, you chose that.

Two things.  Your house analogy only works if about half the people in the other house want you dead and will kill the other residents if they disagree with them.  Secondly, you're arguing proportionality with the wrong dude.  Bel and I agree on the people of Gaza not being homogenous in their support for Hamas, but we disagree considerably about the validity of Israel's response to 10/07.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-14-2024, 04:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Two things.  Your house analogy only works if about half the people in the other house want you dead and will kill the other residents if they disagree with them.  Secondly, you're arguing proportionality with the wrong dude.  Bel and I agree on the people of Gaza not being homogenous in their support for Hamas, but we disagree considerably about the validity of Israel's response to 10/07.

The point I'm making with the house analogy is that Sociopathicsteelerfan has the right to respond disproportionately to their neighbor. If the people in that house don't want to get killed when you decide to roll up to their house with 50 of your cousins armed with AR-15's then I would suggest they make their best effort to get out of there.. Even if that means possibly dying by the hands of those they're harboring.

You don't have to be equivelant with every evil act committed by a person in order to lose protection from the wrath that will come from the ones that were perpetrated against. If you attempt to protect a murderer/rapist with genocidal intentions by giving your self up as a living shield, then you better be prepared to die.

[Belsnickel]

(02-14-2024, 08:40 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: The point I'm making with the house analogy is that Sociopathicsteelerfan has the right to respond disproportionately to their neighbor. If the people in that house don't want to get killed when you decide to roll up to their house with 50 of your cousins armed with AR-15's then I would suggest they make their best effort to get out of there.. Even if that means possibly dying by the hands of those they're harboring.

You don't have to be equivelant with every evil act committed by a person in order to lose protection from the wrath that will come from the ones that were perpetrated against. If you attempt to protect a murderer/rapist with genocidal intentions by giving your self up as a living shield, then you better be prepared to die.

But this is where you go off the rails. The people of Gaza are not making this choice. They're struggling to just exist.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-14-2024, 08:48 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But this is where you go off the rails. The people of Gaza are not making this choice. They're struggling to just exist.

They are choosing that.

You think you're arguing choice here, but you're not. What you're arguing is the difficulty of the situation in which the people of Gaza find themselves in. Which, I completely get that.

What I'm telling you however is that just because you find yourself in a difficult situation does not mean you get to dictate how a victim chooses to retaliate against their aggressors.

You can say "Hey you can't bomb this area, this is where I work". 

Or "You can't bomb here, this is where I live"

Or, "You can't bomb here, this is where I keep important family possessions"

Or, "You can't bomb here, it's where I've stored my life savings"

But I'm sying Israel doesn't have to care about any of that if Hamas is using those places as refuge and positions to operate from.

Even if Hamas is holding a gun to their head saying "If you try to flee. I will kill you", that's a very difficult situation to be in. But again, a choice is being made there if you decide to listen to their demands.

If you choose to live by their demands then you will have to face the consequence of that.

You don't get to tell somebody how they should invade your home when your home is the place that they're being attacked from.

[GMDino]

Ah, finding ways to justify killing innocent people.  Cool. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-14-2024, 09:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ah, finding ways to justify killing innocent people.  Cool. 

I'm actually not justifying anything.

I'm not saying that what Israel is doing is right.

I'm saying you don't get to tell them what the right response is when they're the ones having genocide committed against them.

You watched the Kansas City Chiefs beat the San Francisco 49ers over the weekend. So please, spatre me the holier than thou BS.

[GMDino]

(02-14-2024, 10:05 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm actually not justifying anything.

I'm not saying that what Israel is doing is right.

I'm saying you don't get to tell them what the right response is when they're the ones having genocide committed against them.

You watched the Kansas City Chiefs beat the San Francisco 49ers over the weekend. So please, spatre me the holier than thou BS.

Not sure how watching the Superbowl has anything to do with it...unless you're saying we must devote 100% of our attention to Israel in order to comment that there are civilians being killed and it is not their fault.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-14-2024, 11:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: Not sure how watching the Superbowl has anything to do with it...unless you're saying we must devote 100% of our attention to Israel in order to comment that there are civilians being killed and it is not their fault.

No, the point is you're watching the Superbowl while there's an entire group of people that another group of people wants dead.

We as Americans, and I say we to include myself as im also guilty of this, want to sit in our chairs and eat Fritos scoops with queso and drink beer, while judging Israel for what they're doing when we have never even come close to even the smallest particle of having to make the types of decisions they're making.

Last time I checked, we don't have rocket sirens going off here daily in the US do we? Oh that's right. We just have the luxury of testing them every once in a while to get the dust off.

Again, I'm not saying what they're doing is right. I'm just saying I don't think we get to play judge and jury against them when we have never had to respond to genocide touted by our literal next door neighbors.

And to those harboring the ones desiring and attempting to commit genocide? You don't get to cry wolf when Israel comes to kill those people and ends up killing you in the process.

[Belsnickel]

(02-15-2024, 12:21 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: And to those harboring the ones desiring and attempting to commit genocide? You don't get to cry wolf when Israel comes to kill those people and ends up killing you in the process.

Why do you keep saying they are harboring Hamas? You said earlier this wasn't about their choice, but harboring is an active action being taken. The people of Gaza are being held captive by Hamas, they are not harboring them. There are three main actors that prevent freedom of movement in Gaza: Israel, Egypt, and Hamas. The three of them, while not working together, have a web of restrictions that create a prison-like environment for these people. How can you see that as harboring them?

[GMDino]

(02-15-2024, 12:21 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: No, the point is you're watching the Superbowl while there's an entire group of people that another group of people wants dead.

We as Americans, and I say we to include myself as im also guilty of this, want to sit in our chairs and eat Fritos scoops with queso and drink beer, while judging Israel for what they're doing when we have never even come close to even the smallest particle of having to make the types of decisions they're making.

Last time I checked, we don't have rocket sirens going off here daily in the US do we? Oh that's right. We just have the luxury of testing them every once in a while to get the dust off.

Again, I'm not saying what they're doing is right. I'm just saying I don't think we get to play judge and jury against them when we have never had to respond to genocide touted by our literal next door neighbors.

And to those harboring the ones desiring and attempting to commit genocide? You don't get to cry wolf when Israel comes to kill those people and ends up killing you in the process.

Well, yeah.  Somehow, as I am not in the middle of it.

I bet a lot of the dead civilians were thinking about other things like where to get food, why they were being bombed in the place where they were told to go by Israel to avoid getting bombed, etc.

Israel has clearly used the Hamas attack as the reasoning to go in and wipe out as much of the strip as they can before the world says enough.  That isn't saying they had no right to respond.  That is saying that if we look at the entire situation, from Netanyahu aiding Hamas (or not stopping aid to them) so he had something to rally against to the level of death in the strip, that Israel has already "won" but they won't stop until they have done as much damage as possible.

And no, they will never rid the area of Hamas completely anymore than the US "defeated" ISIS.  There will always be more.  And wars like this just create more.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-15-2024, 09:01 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Why do you keep saying they are harboring Hamas? You said earlier this wasn't about their choice, but harboring is an active action being taken. The people of Gaza are being held captive by Hamas, they are not harboring them. There are three main actors that prevent freedom of movement in Gaza: Israel, Egypt, and Hamas. The three of them, while not working together, have a web of restrictions that create a prison-like environment for these people. How can you see that as harboring them?

If you allow people to conceal themselves among you, when you, being an "innocent" citizen makes it harder for their position to be attacked, then you are harboring them.

Answer me this.

Over 1 million people fled Gaza city and became refugees in Rafah. How did they get there? 



 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2024, 10:39 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: If you allow people to conceal themselves among you, when you, being an "innocent" citizen makes it harder for their position to be attacked, then you are harboring them.

How do you not allow an armed gang of terrorists to conceal themselves among you?  These guys are straight up animals and won't shrink from performing the most heinous acts against anyone who opposes them in the slightest.  Unlike our citizenry, the people of Gaza are not armed, and have no ability to do so.  They straight up cannot resist an armed terrorist group in any meaningful way.

Quote:Answer me this.

Over 1 million people fled Gaza city and became refugees in Rafah. How did they get there?  

A lot of them walked.  It's not that far, only 47 miles.  If you take the average human walking speed, around 3 mph, it would only take you two days of walking to make the trip.  Of course, the elderly and children would take longer.

I understand what you're getting at in these posts, the problem is your condemning an entire population for the beliefs and actions of a percentage.  What is this percentage?  It would be a guess, but let's say 50% of Gazan resident support or belong to Hamas.  You're treating all of them the same as the 50%.  So even if avoiding civilian casualties was not a goal we strive for in modern warfare, you're killing a bunch of innocent people who oppose the regime that started this war.  You can't tell who a Hamas supporter from a Hamas opponent unless they state their position in some way.  So you can't just wantonly kill civilians and the assuage your conscious by saying they were all Hamas supporters/enablers.  

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-15-2024, 10:12 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well, yeah.  Somehow, as I am not in the middle of it

That's the thing though.

It's not that you're not in the middle of it. It's that you're not in the middle of anything remotely comparable to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

I challenge anyone here to point me in the direction of a comparable situation that US citizens have had to face in the last 20 years. 40 years. 60 years. Don't bother looking, because there isn't one.

Quote:I bet a lot of the dead civilians were thinking about other things like where to get food, why they were being bombed in the place where they were told to go by Israel to avoid getting bombed, etc.

Bombing places that they said was a safe place is condemnable.

Trying to live in a Nazi controlled state that just attacked its neighbor and expecting to be free from harm is foolish.

Quote:Israel has clearly used the Hamas attack as the reasoning to go in and wipe out as much of the strip as they can before the world says enough.  That isn't saying they had no right to respond.  That is saying that if we look at the entire situation, from Netanyahu aiding Hamas (or not stopping aid to them) so he had something to rally against to the level of death in the strip, that Israel has already "won" but they won't stop until they have done as much damage as possible.


And no, they will never rid the area of Hamas completely anymore than the US "defeated" ISIS.  There will always be more.  And wars like this just create more

.
Well yeah. If someone was telling me they want to obliterate me and continually have shown they want to do just that, then I'd probably be using those acts to blow their shit up too.

Also, you don't have to be concerned with killing everyone, nor does that have to be the goal.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-15-2024, 12:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: How do you not allow an armed gang of terrorists to conceal themselves among you?  These guys are straight up animals and won't shrink from performing the most heinous acts against anyone who opposes them in the slightest.  Unlike our citizenry, the people of Gaza are not armed, and have no ability to do so.  They straight up cannot resist an armed terrorist group in any meaningful way.

I think you’re over thinking this to be honest. You might not realize it, but you already know the answer to your own question. 

You asked, how do you not let an armed gang of terrorists conceal themselves among you when they’re a bunch of animals committing heinous acts of violence.

Well, you have two options.

The first option is you become the very thing I’ve been told Hamas is. You become freedom fighters seeking to overcome and defeat their tyrannical rulers that are limiting their way of life so that you can live freely and spread joy and peace abundantly. You say the people of Gaza are not armed like US citizens are. Well, find a way to get armed then.

Armed rebellions don’t start with people who already had a large cache of weapons stockpiled at their disposal and ready to go at a moment’s notice. Armed rebellions start when people are brave enough to stand for something, even if it means certain death. So, they start to band together. They start to devise plans. They start to develop tactics for how they will overcome their tyrannical rulers. They start to figure out how to arm themselves.

Farmers with pitch forks. Start there and figure it out.

You say they can’t resist in any meaningful way. Well, that depends on how one defines meaningful. I for one think it’s pretty meaningful to fight against tyranny and die, than to live in fear under tyranny and allow those tyrants to not only terrorize you and your family, but also commit genocide against another group of people and have you as their protection because you decided living under their tyrannical rule and letting them spread their tyranny is better than death. Some people would call that cowardice.

And don't take what I'm saying here as me portraying myself as some big brave dude that would stand up to Hamas. In all honesty I’m not sure what I would do.
 
What I do know however, is that if I were to accept my position as a "coward" and let them terrorize people instead of standing up to them, then I would also have to accept that my fate is in the hands of Hamas. If the people they’re terrorizing decided to retaliate and attempt to take them out, I would have to accept whatever fate is coming to me because I made the decision to live under tyranny and not pursue any of the two options before me.

Which leads me to option two.

You attempt to escape from them. You take your 3mph walking speed and go somewhere else. If 47 miles is two days, then how much is two more days? And two more days after that? Is escaping tyranny not worth 8 days of travel?
There’s no guarantee you’ll find another place to call home. Your objective is to run from the tyranny that has asked for the wrath of Israel to come upon it. You don't get to tell them what to do because it's your home. You chose to live under tyranny. Therefore, under tyranny you shall perish.


Again. This is not me saying this is an easy situation to be in. I don't think rebelling against people who are going to behead you is an easy thing to do. But you can do it if you choose to. In fact, many people have chosen to rebel against tyrants. And many of them have died. Many of them have been beheaded. Many of them have been burned alive. Many of them have been stoned. Hanged. Shot to death. But I wouldn't say their deaths were meaningless. Standing up to tyranny, even with just a pitchfork always has meaning. You might not be victorious, but you just might be the catalyst that starts a revolution like so many have already done in the past. It’s your choice.

Fight.

Run.

Or there’s the third option. Wait to die.

Quote:I understand what you're getting at in these posts, the problem is your condemning an entire population for the beliefs and actions of a percentage.  What is this percentage?  It would be a guess, but let's say 50% of Gazan resident support or belong to Hamas.  You're treating all of them the same as the 50%.  So even if avoiding civilian casualties was not a goal we strive for in modern warfare, you're killing a bunch of innocent people who oppose the regime that started this war.  You can't tell who a Hamas supporter from a Hamas opponent unless they state their position in some way.  So you can't just wantonly kill civilians and the assuage your conscious by saying they were all Hamas supporters/enablers.  

Exactly.

You can't tell a Hamas supporter from someone who opposes Hamas.

Therefore, I suggest you do yourself a favor and get out of the way. If I don't know who to kill, what I am going to do is destroy any infrastucture I think they can use to further their genocidal cause. If you decide to stay there, that's the choice you live or die with.

I'm not condemning anyone for Hamas actions. What I am condemning, is the belief people have, to think that just because they call a place home and decide to live under tyranny, knowing that by doing so they are going to become human shields for their tyrants, which allows them to further carry out their tyranny, that they then get to decide how a military responds to attempted genocide. coming from the very home that they live in. That to me is absolutely insane.

[Dill]

(02-15-2024, 10:39 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Belsnickel Wrote:Why do you keep saying they are harboring Hamas? You said earlier this wasn't about their choice, but harboring is an active action being taken. The people of Gaza are being held captive by Hamas, they are not harboring them. There are three main actors that prevent freedom of movement in Gaza: Israel, Egypt, and Hamas. The three of them, while not working together, have a web of restrictions that create a prison-like environment for these people. How can you see that as harboring them?

If you allow people to conceal themselves among you, when you, being an "innocent" citizen makes it harder for their position to be attacked, then you are harboring them.
Answer me this.   Over 1 million people fled Gaza city and became refugees in Rafah. How did they get there?  

You do realize that Rafah is still in Gaza, right? The people who fled Gaza are refugees now living with the refugees already living in Gaza. People trapped in the Strip are simply being herded from one part to another, while their homes are being destroyed.

(02-16-2024, 10:29 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Which leads me to option two.
You attempt to escape from them. You take your 3mph walking speed and go somewhere else. If 47 miles is two days, then how much is two more days? And two more days after that? Is escaping tyranny not worth 8 days of travel?
There’s no guarantee you’ll find another place to call home. Your objective is to run from the tyranny that has asked for the wrath of Israel to come upon it. You don't get to tell them what to do because it's your home. You chose to live under tyranny. Therefore, under tyranny you shall perish.

You seem to think that Palestinians trapped in the Gaza strip can just walk out of Gaza if they want to, without the permission of Israel or Egypt. 

As if Gaza were a sovereign ("Nazi-controlled") state, not a territory of stateless people under Israeli control since 1967. 

That suggests to me that you do not have basic knowledge of this conflict, its history and what is at stake for each of the players.

[Dill]

(02-14-2024, 02:52 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Let’s say you and your family live in a giant house, and across the street from you is a family of 20 people living in another giant house. Within that family of 20 people are 6 people that want to completely murder you and your family and bulldoze your house so they can build their own house where yours was.

Knowing that there’s people in this house that want to kill you and and tear down your house to put their own house in place of yours, you decide to blockade them and prevent them from moving freely across the street to your house. You don’t prevent their movement completely though, you just severely limit it.
To show their proportional way of thinking, these people decide to spend 20 years shooting over 20,000 rockets at your house, which amounts to around an impressive 1,000 rockets per year.

But luckily for you, you have an Iron Dome system installed in your yard that intercepts most of the missiles that reach your house over these 20 years. Not all of them, but most of them. Unfortunately, some of the missiles have gotten through over the years and killed your wife, your dad, and a couple cousins. Yet, you still decide not to wipe them off the face of the earth.

These people also commit about a hundred or so suicide bombings over these 20 years against your house. Not all of them are successful. But some of them are. Unfortunately, the ones that are successful have killed one of your sons, two more of your cousins and your father. But you still don’t completely wipe them off the face of the earth.

Some additional points are required to square your house analogy with current situation in Gaza.

First, many decades ago, your family took the house you are now living in from the grandparents of the 20 or so people living across the street in the other house, and you killed them in the process, forcing their children to flee for fear of rape and death. 

You have surrounded that other house with walls and barbed wire fencing, and now completely control access to the other house, plus food, water, medicine, electricity and trade with other homeowners in the area. You permit two of them to work for you occasionally, mowing your lawn or cleaning your house. If any try to leave the house across the street without your permission, you arrest or shoot them. You have a prison in your basement in which you keep those arrested. 

Not everyone in the other house is down with the arrangement. Some want their grandparents' house back and are ready to die fighting for it. They take pot shots at your family. You have a helicopter gunship and can respond with overwhelming force, killing 10 of theirs for every one of yours. Others in that house are tired of living in fear of your gunship and armed guards, and would be happy if you just let them have what's left of the house they have now, allow them full ownership and control of it.

But you don't want that because you don't trust the people whose house you took to live peacefully beside you. Best you can do is keep them divided and fighting themselves. Make sure the most militant among them--the "Nazis"--get preferential funding from outside sources.  The rest are "cowards" if they don't fight the Nazis. They have "chosen to live under tyranny."

(02-14-2024, 02:52 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: One day these people decide, "you know what, screw it. We’re gonna paratroop in on their asses and kill and rape as many of the people living in that house as we possibly can. And when they run into the bomb shelter in the basement of the house we’re gonna throw grenades in to get those cowards."
So, with their fair proportional way of thinking, they do just that.
They paratroop in on your house and while your family is watching the Superbowl they're ambushed and murdered and raped.
I say all this because I find it a bit odd when the “proportional” argument is brought up. How exactly do you proportionally respond to this? How do you proportonally respond to attempted genocide?
Let’s be real for a second here people. There have been over 20,000 rockets fired at Israel. The only reason Israel  didn’t invade Gaza sooner is because they have the Iron Dome and because a lot of the missles being fired have been inaccurate. If Israel didn’t have Iron Dome, and the Palestinians had more accurate measures, they would have been pounding Israel into the ground over these last 20 years and decimating their communities.
The best they could do instead was what they did on October 7th and now they're getting what they have been asking for for 20 years. If you decided to stay there and die with Hamas, you chose that.

"Decided to stay."   What?  People walled and fenced in didn't break out of their prison and rush into Israeli guns? 

And we are talking about the 4th invasion of Gaza in the last 20 years, 15th invasion if you go back to '48. 

And now the loss of civilian life has topped that of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon back in '82. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-17-2024, 07:49 AM)Dill Wrote: You do realize that Rafah is still in Gaza, right? The people who fled Gaza are refugees now living with the refugees already living in Gaza. People trapped in the Strip are simply being herded from one part to another, while their homes are being destroyed.

Y.ou seem to think that Palestinians trapped in the Gaza strip can just walk out of Gaza if they want to, without the permission of Israel or Egypt. 

As if Gaza were a sovereign ("Nazi-controlled") state, not a territory of stateless people under Israeli control since 1967. 

That suggests to me that you do not have basic knowledge of this conflict, its history and what is at stake for each of the players.

Never thought I'd be in a thread against Sociopathissteelerfan, Belsnickel and Dil. A monumental task indeed.

 So, a couple things to address here.

You know me better than that Dill. I know it's been a while since we've traded tl;dr paragraphs, but come on. Yes, I do know that "Gaza" is more technically termed as "The Gaza Strip" and not "Gaza" as in a single location known as Gaza City within the Gaza Strip, but rather a wider territory between Egypt and Israel.
 
My point was not to say they "left Gaza" as in the territory. I'm completely aware there's closed borders to be crossed and that you can't just cosplay illegal immigrants coming to the US.
 
The point I was making is that they made a choice, and that choice was that they decided they were not going to let themselves die with Hamas in Gaza City. So, they gathered whatever they could and high tailed it out of there. Why? Because they were smart enough to know that if you live amongst a group of people who want to commit genocide then you better run for the hills when those genocidal maniacs decide to attack the ones whom they wish to commit genocide against.
 
The "Nazi controlled state" statement was a figure of speech. I know the Gaza Strip isn't a sovereign nation, nor was I ever trying to imply that. You're attempting to complicate something that doesn't need to be complicated by lecturing me on the history of the Palestinian and Israeli conflict as if all of that matters.
 
I’m not here to play tit for tat Dill, because again, the displacement, the incursions, the blockades, the occupation, the accords, none of that matters in relation to what I am saying.
 
The basis of my entire argument concerns genocidal intentions realized by literal actions and how the opposition decides to respond to it.
 
You can go through the history of the conflict and complain about Jewish occupation all you want, but it's irrelevant to the argument. It's as simple a question as this.
 
Does Hamas want to annihilate Israel and has stated so? Yes.
 
Have they violently attacked Israel and killed innocent people as a means to show their genocidal intentions? Yes.
 
Therefore, if Israel decides to respond by completely obliterating Hamas, and the way for them to do that is by killing Hamas and destroying any capabilities they have of carrying out their genocidal intentions, then anyone who does not want to die should do their best to flee to somewhere that Israel is less likely to target until the conflict is over. If Israel really wanted to kill everyone, they would have done it already.

(02-17-2024, 08:31 AM)Dill Wrote: Some additional points are required to square your house analogy with current situation in Gaza.

First, many decades ago, your family took the house you are now living in from the grandparents of the 20 or so people living across the street in the other house, and you killed them in the process, forcing their children to flee for fear of rape and death. 

You have surrounded that other house with walls and barbed wire fencing, and now completely control access to the other house, plus food, water, medicine, electricity and trade with other homeowners in the area. You permit two of them to work for you occasionally, mowing your lawn or cleaning your house. If any try to leave the house across the street without your permission, you arrest or shoot them. You have a prison in your basement in which you keep those arrested. 

Not everyone in the other house is down with the arrangement. Some want their grandparents' house back and are ready to die fighting for it. They take pot shots at your family. You have a helicopter gunship and can respond with overwhelming force, killing 10 of theirs for every one of yours. Others in that house are tired of living in fear of your gunship and armed guards, and would be happy if you just let them have what's left of the house they have now, allow them full ownership and control of it.

But you don't want that because you don't trust the people whose house you took to live peacefully beside you. Best you can do is keep them divided and fighting themselves. Make sure the most militant among them--the "Nazis"--get preferential funding from outside sources.  The rest are "cowards" if they don't fight the Nazis. They have "chosen to live under tyranny."

And what I'm telling you is none of that matters within the confines of the argument being presented here. I am not concerned with who has done bad/questionable/immoral etc... actions against who in an ongoing conflict. What I am concerned with is who wants to commit genocide against who and have they acted on it.

Quote:"Decided to stay."   What?  People walled and fenced in didn't break out of their prison and rush into Israeli guns? 

Yes, they are absolutely deciding to stay. If 1 million people flee an area and you stay there and die, you chose that. You're acting like Israeli soldiers have been commanded to mow down every Palestinian on sight or that there's absolutely no place to go where they can increase their chances of survival.