Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(03-04-2024, 11:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: More anecdotal evidence.  Also fifteen years old.
2013 Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620/

First off, nowhere in this article is the word torture used, or torture described.  Also, more anecdotal evidence.

More on the poor vetting process.

1. I post links ranging over 20 years to show how this is an ongoing problem. It continues because there appears to be no will to resolve it.

2. I wonder if you actually read any of my links.  For this one, I have copied it below and underlined descriptions of abuse and bolded and enlarged use of the word "torture" to help you see it.

3. This dismissal-without-reading also raises questions about your definition of "anecdotal." The incidents in the UNICEF Report are "anecdotal" in the same sense that evidence of the Hamas attack on Oct 7 is "anecdotal."  They are based on Israel's own prison and arrest records, and the cooperation of Israeli prosecutors and other officers of the court, along with the testimony of children and families. E.g., the complaint about soldiers remaining unpunished after forcing a nine-year-old to inspect parcels at gunpoint is not simply dependent on second hand knowledge or hearsay.
https://www.unicef.org/sop/media/216/file/Children%20in%20Israeli%20Military.pdf
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620/    By Stephanie Nebehay
GENEVA (Reuters) - A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

Palestinian children in the Gaza and the West Bank, captured by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said.

"Palestinian children arrested by (Israeli) military and police are systematically subject to degrading treatment, and often to acts of torture, are interrogated in Hebrew, a language they did not understand, and sign confessions in Hebrew in order to be released," it said in a report.

The Israeli Foreign Ministry said it had responded to a report by the U.N. children's agency UNICEF in March on ill-treatment of Palestinian minors and questioned whether the U.N. committee's investigation covered new ground.
"If someone simply wants to magnify their political bias and political bashing of Israel not based on a new report, on work on the ground, but simply recycling old stuff, there is no importance in that," spokesman Yigal Palmor said.

The report by the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child acknowledged Israel's national security concerns and noted that children on both sides of the conflict continue to be killed and wounded, but that more casualties are Palestinian.

Most Palestinian children arrested are accused of having thrown stones, an offence which can carry a penalty of up to 20 years in prison, the committee said. Israeli soldiers had testified to the often arbitrary nature of the arrests, it said.

The watchdog's 18 independent experts examined Israel's record of compliance with a 1990 treaty as part of its regular review of a pact signed by all nations except Somalia and the United States. An Israeli delegation attended the session.

The U.N. committee regretted Israel's "persistent refusal" to respond to requests for information on children in the Palestinian territories and occupied Syrian Golan Heights since the last review in 2002.

"DISPROPORTIONATE"

"Hundreds of Palestinian children have been killed and thousands injured over the reporting period as a result of the state party military operations, especially in Gaza where the state party proceeded to (conduct) air and naval strikes on densely populated areas with a significant presence of children, thus disregarding the principles of proportionality and distinction," the report said.

Israel battled a Palestinian uprising during part of the 10-year period examined by the committee.

It withdrew its troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2006, but still blockades the Hamas-run enclave, from where Palestinian militants have sometimes fired rockets into Israel.

During the 10-year period, an estimated 7,000 Palestinian children aged 12 to 17, but some as young as nine, had been arrested, interrogated and detained, the U.N. report said.

Many are brought in leg chains and shackles before military courts, while youths are held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months, the report said.

It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said.

"Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted," it said.

Israel's "illegal long-standing occupation" of Palestinian territory and the Syrian Golan Heights, continued expansion of "unlawful" Jewish settlements, construction of the Wall into the West Bank, land confiscation and destruction of homes and livelihoods "constitute severe and continuous violations of the rights of Palestinian children and their families", it said.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Still waiting on your explanation on why all your posts are about the IDF and none of them are about Hamas. Why the constant mitigation and blame shifting away from known and self admitted terrorists?

You really seem to like defending Hamas.

[Dill]

(03-07-2024, 01:07 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Still waiting on your explanation on why all your posts are about the IDF and none of them are about Hamas.  Why the constant mitigation and blame shifting away from known and self admitted terrorists?

You really seem to like defending Hamas.

 I'll enjoy explaining why, but I won't get around to it till Saturday or Sunday.

Meantime it looks like you're not going to risk any more factual engagement on this issue.
So I'll leave you with a few points of preview:

1. I've actually addressed your question somewhat above (#136), when I laid out our methodological differences and goals: i.e., we disagree on whether discussions here should be open to fact-driven inquiry or subject to explicitly ideological/political limits. 

2. Other than limiting their motivation to religious belief, no one has so far been misrepresenting Hamas's actions; I've said they represent the Palestinian right-wing, a mirror image of the Knesset's right wing, and a two-state solution will never be possible with them in power.  Everyone agrees that they broke out of the siege of Gaza and killed and raped innocent civilians. Israel's desire to destroy them (not innocent Gazans) is justifiable (though the siege is not). Until someone challenges the factual record there, I won't have much else to contribute. And for the record, I have posted about Hamas; you wanted me to stop.

3. It would be profitable to remind everyone why denunciation is one of the preferred modes of regime address in authoritarian/totalitarian regimes. Where legitimating narratives cannot hold up under close factual examination, the next move is to prevent them from occurring. Historically, that has meant closing the space of open, fact-based inquiry with a simple binary question--FRIEND or ENEMY? Populations learn quickly enough how never to trigger that question. One sees that model in its most developed in places like North Korea, but an incipient form of it is proving attractive in our domestic politics, where millions have been persuaded to censor themselves by an authoritarian populist ("fake news"!).

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-08-2024, 01:43 AM)Dill Wrote:  I'll enjoy explaining why, but I won't get around to it till Saturday or Sunday.

I'm on shpilkes.

Quote:Meantime it looks like you're not going to risk any more factual engagement on this issue.
So I'll leave you with a few points of preview:

Risk?  If you mean the risk of being nauseated by Hamas talking points then yes, there would be a risk.

Quote:1. I've actually addressed your question somewhat above (#136), when I laid out our methodological differences and goals: i.e., we disagree on whether discussions here should be open to fact-driven inquiry or subject to explicitly ideological/political limits. 

2. Other than limiting their motivation to religious belief, no one has so far been misrepresenting Hamas's actions; I've said they represent the Palestinian right-wing, a mirror image of the Knesset's right wing, and a two-state solution will never be possible with them in power.  Everyone agrees that they broke out of the siege of Gaza and killed and raped innocent civilians. Israel's desire to destroy them (not innocent Gazans) is justifiable (though the siege is not). Until someone challenges the factual record there, I won't have much else to contribute. And for the record, I have posted about Hamas; you wanted me to stop.

The underlined is the issue with you, and always has been.  You directly equate the terrorist dogs in Hamas to Israelis, whether in government or the IDF.  There is no comparison.  Hamas are religious fanatics who wantonly rape and murder civilians while kidnapping literal babies and toddlers.  They are the lowest scum the human race has ever produced.  Your attempts to equate them to any body of people in Israel is the worst kind of equivocating.  There is no comparable actor in Israel, not even close.  To find a comparable actor you need to confine yourself to the other Islamic fascists in ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, as well as the terrorist regime in Iran.

Your consistent, and persistent, attempts to draw parallels between Hamas and the IDF or Israeli government is pure terrorist whitewashing and propaganda.  You are the Bagdad Bob of Hamas and I'm damn sure not going to let you spew that drivel unchallenged.  Thankfully, your very persistence is now working against you as others are starting to notice about you what I've known for years.

Quote:3. It would be profitable to remind everyone why denunciation is one of the preferred modes of regime address in authoritarian/totalitarian regimes. Where legitimating narratives cannot hold up under close factual examination, the next move is to prevent them from occurring. Historically, that has meant closing the space of open, fact-based inquiry with a simple binary question--FRIEND or ENEMY? Populations learn quickly enough how never to trigger that question. One sees that model in its most developed in places like North Korea, but an incipient form of it is proving attractive in our domestic politics, where millions have been persuaded to censor themselves by an authoritarian populist ("fake news"!).

It would be far more profitable for you to realize that constant mitigating and excuse making for terrorists is nauseating and water carrying for their cause, but I don't expect you to stop.  Ever.

[GMDino]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68490034

Quote:Israel approves plans for 3,400 new homes in West Bank settlements

2 days ago
By David Gritten,BBC News
Share
Reuters
Plans for more than 2,500 homes in the settlement of Maale Adumim were reportedly advanced
Israel's government has advanced plans for more than 3,400 new homes in settlements in the occupied West Bank.


About 70% of the homes will be built in Maale Adumim, east of Jerusalem, with the rest in nearby Kedar and Efrat, south of Bethlehem.


A minister has said the construction is a response to a deadly Palestinian attack near Maale Adumim two weeks ago.
The Palestinian Authority condemned the plans, which are reportedly the first to be approved since June.


Israel has built about 160 settlements housing some 700,000 Jews since it occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem - land the Palestinians want as part of a future state - in the 1967 Middle East war.

The vast majority of the international community considers the settlements illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

• Palestinian gunmen kill Israeli man in West Bank
• UK sanctions Israeli settlers accused of violence
  

Israel's Haaretz newspaper said the Higher Planning Committee of the Civil Administration - the body that implements Israeli government policy in the West Bank - had advanced plans for the development of 3,476 settler homes on Wednesday - with 2,452 in Maale Adumim, 694 in Efrat and 330 in Kedar.


Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right politician who oversees the Civil Administration, said following the meeting that a total of 18,515 homes in West Bank settlements had now been approved over the past year.


"The enemies try to harm and weaken us but we will continue to build and be built up in this land," he wrote on X, formerly Twitter.

However, the Israeli anti-settlement watchdog Peace Now warned: "Instead of building a future of hope, peace, and security, the Israeli government is paving the way for our destruction."


It said the projects would have a negative impact on the possibility of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The foreign ministry of the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority condemned both the new plans and Mr Smotrich's remarks.


"Settlement is void and illegitimate from its foundation, representing an explicit call for the continuation of the spiral of violence and wars," a statement said.


Mr Smotrich put forward the plans on 22 February, hours after three Palestinian gunmen opened fire on cars on a road near Maale Adumim, killing one Israeli and wounding several others. He said the attack "must have a determined security response but also a settlement response".

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken expressed disappointment with the decision the following day and surprised many observers by declaring that the US viewed settlements as illegal - reverting to a position that had been overturned by former President Donald Trump's administration in 2019.


"It's been longstanding US policy under Republican and Democratic administrations alike that new settlements are counterproductive to reaching an enduring peace," he told reporters in Argentina.


"They're also inconsistent with international law. Our administration maintains a firm opposition to settlement expansion. And in our judgement, this only weakens - it doesn't strengthen - Israel's security."


A Peace Now report said in January that there had been an "unprecedented surge in settlement activities" across the West Bank since the start of the war in the Gaza Strip, triggered by Hamas's deadly attacks in Israel on 7 October.


The West Bank has also experienced a spike in violence over the same period.

The UN says at least 413 Palestinians - members of armed groups, attackers and civilians - have been killed in conflict-related incidents in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, or in Israel since October.


Fifteen Israelis, including four security forces personnel, have also been killed.

[Dill]

(03-08-2024, 12:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The underlined is the issue with you, and always has been.  You directly equate the terrorist dogs in Hamas to Israelis, whether in government or the IDF.  There is no comparison.  Hamas are religious fanatics who wantonly rape and murder civilians while kidnapping literal babies and toddlers.  They are the lowest scum the human race has ever produced.  Your attempts to equate them to any body of people in Israel is the worst kind of equivocating.  There is no comparable actor in Israel, not even close.  To find a comparable actor you need to confine yourself to the other Islamic fascists in ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, as well as the terrorist regime in Iran.

Your consistent, and persistent, attempts to draw parallels between Hamas and the IDF or Israeli government is pure terrorist whitewashing and propaganda.  You are the Bagdad Bob of Hamas and I'm damn sure not going to let you spew that drivel unchallenged.  Thankfully, your very persistence is now working against you as others are starting to notice about you what I've known for years.

Well, that's why I think we need to discuss the nature of "denunciation" first. 

You argue that

1. any discovery/exposure of IDF violations of IHL (including via occupation) equates them with Hamas. So, to protect Israel,

2. no one should be allowed to discover/acknowledge/discuss IDF violations of IHL--"parallels"--in principle. 

Application of that double standard would censor/block fact-based discussion on ideological grounds, so I won't cooperate.

You don't have the power to actually censor/block discussion, so the threat of denunciation ("Baghdad Dill supports the enemy!") 
remains your only means of deterring full discussion of accurate reporting on current and past events. 

Why do you always claim to know that unnamed "others" agree with you? I'd bet a week's salary I could name nine forum members 
(not including Dino) who won't agree that criticizing IDF conduct/Israeli politics = "supporting Hamas," but they would agree
that your threat of denunciation negatively affects open discussion.  People who follow your lead will come from a different
subset of posters, from whom you (ironically) frequently seek to distance yourself. 

So for now, dodging the factual record, and failing to appreciate both the history of the conflict and international law, 
mean your "challenges" to my drivel can't move beyond name calling, and will continue to be ineffective. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-09-2024, 10:11 PM)Dill Wrote: Well, that's why I think we need to discuss the nature of "denunciation" first. 

You argue that

1. any discovery/exposure of IDF violations of IHL (including via occupation) equates them with Hamas. So, to protect Israel,

No, I don't, disingenuous point number one.  I argue that a direct attempt to equate them with Hamas, as you routinely do, are attempts to equate them.  You literally did exactly this in you last post.

Quote:2. no one should be allowed to discover/acknowledge/discuss IDF violations of IHL--"parallels"--in principle. 

No, I don't, disingenuous point number two.  I have specifically stated in this thread I have zero issue discussing wrongdoings by the IDF.  What I do, have, and will continue to have issue with is a one sided discussion of their wrongdoings while ignoring those of Hamas, or how those contribute to civilian casualties, as well as any attempt to define the two as equally bad actors, as you routinely do, have done, and will continue to do.

Quote:Application of that double standard would censor/block fact-based discussion on ideological grounds, so I won't cooperate.

You don't have the power to actually censor/block discussion, so the threat of denunciation ("Baghdad Dill supports the enemy!") 
remains your only means of deterring full discussion of accurate reporting on current and past events. 

No, it doesn't, disingenuous point number three.  As described above your consistent equating of Hamas to the IDF is the issue.  If you take issue with being called out for spreading Hamas propaganda, then stop spreading Hamas propaganda.

Quote:Why do you always claim to know that unnamed "others" agree with you? I'd bet a week's salary I could name nine forum members 
(not including Dino) who won't agree that criticizing IDF conduct/Israeli politics = "supporting Hamas," but they would agree
that your threat of denunciation negatively affects open discussion.  People who follow your lead will come from a different
subset of posters, from whom you (ironically) frequently seek to distance yourself.

 
Not sure what you think you're accomplishing here, other than a pathetic attempt to form a group of terrorist sympathizers around you that don't actually exist.  Anyone who's actually read the posts I've made know my issue with your consistent apologist rhetoric for Hamas.  But bet away, I'd definitely be interested in the results.

Quote:So for now, dodging the factual record, and failing to appreciate both the history of the conflict and international law, 
mean your "challenges" to my drivel can't move beyond name calling, and will continue to be ineffective. 

Accurate labeling cannot, by definition, be name calling.  You, in your very last post, equate Hama to the right wing of Israeli politics.  In so doing you directly illustrate my main issue with your whitewashing of Islamic extremists and terrorist apologism.  I know you've exhausted your repertoire of BS, because you're now completely ignoring direct points and engaging in Dill circuitous arguments.  We know you don't see Hamas as bad guys, or at least as only as bad as the Israelis.  Quite dissembling and own it, it couldn't be more obvious.

[Dill]

(03-10-2024, 03:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, I don't, disingenuous point number one.  I argue that a direct attempt to equate them with Hamas, as you routinely do, are attempts to equate them.  You literally did exactly this in you last post.

No, I don't, disingenuous point number two.  I have specifically stated in this thread I have zero issue discussing wrongdoings by the IDF.  What I do, have, and will continue to have issue with is a one sided discussion of their wrongdoings while ignoring those of Hamas, or how those contribute to civilian casualties, as well as any attempt to define the two as equally bad actors, as you routinely do, have done, and will continue to do.

LOL what I "routinely do, have done, and will continue to do" is demonstrate that you are misinformed about the history of the conflict, 
largely because you self-censor your own intake of information. 

If you had "zero issue discussing wrongdoings by the IDF" then you'd not be framing people who discuss IDF "wrongdoings" as a "Hamas supporters." 

And if you define reporting/criticism of Israeli/IDF conduct as eo ipso "a direct attempt to equate them with Hamas," then "one-sided discussion" is exactly the goal.

(03-10-2024, 03:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, it doesn't, disingenuous point number three.  As described above your consistent equating of Hamas to the IDF is the issue.  If you take issue with being called out for spreading Hamas propaganda, then stop spreading Hamas propaganda.
 
Not sure what you think you're accomplishing here, other than a pathetic attempt to form a group of terrorist sympathizers around you that don't actually exist.  Anyone who's actually read the posts I've made know my issue with your consistent apologist rhetoric for Hamas.  But bet away, I'd definitely be interested in the results.

Accurate labeling cannot, by definition, be name calling.  You, in your very last post, equate Hama to the right wing of Israeli politics.  In so doing you directly illustrate my main issue with your whitewashing of Islamic extremists and terrorist apologism.  I know you've exhausted your repertoire of BS, because you're now completely ignoring direct points and engaging in Dill circuitous arguments.  We know you don't see Hamas as bad guys, or at least as only as bad as the Israelis.  Quite dissembling and own it, it couldn't be more obvious.

As any junior high principal could tell you, "accurate labeling" certainly can be name-calling, but the real question here is, who is labeling accurately? 

The accuracy of political labels is never self-evident, and when someone deflects questions about his labels while simultaneously deploying them to prevent discussion, then accuracy is very much in doubt.

E.g., what you call "Hamas propaganda" makes the label so general that it implicitly defines the accurate reporting of international reporters/observers as "support for terrorism." Meaning the only way to avoid that label is to NOT report/discuss what the IDF actually does in Gaza. That's clear enough for anyone who has "actually read the posts [you] have made."  

There is no place where I describe Hamas and Israel as "equally bad actors." That claim simply assumes what it should be proving, namely that any recognition/criticism of IDF war crimes eo ipso creates "equivalence" and is "support for terrorism."  The logic of that is structurally parallel to a claim that recognition of war crimes by the Union Army in Georgia in 1865 "equates" the Union with the Confederacy and "whitewashes" slavery.  I doubt even you would buy that, yet you cannot explain why it is suddenly "Hamas equivalence" when IDF war crimes are on the dock.  "Just is" somehow, and you are going to "call it out" rather than waste time explaining what is so special and different about the IDF case that makes it imperative for Americans to accept IDF propaganda without question.

Calling the right wing of Israeli politics a "mirror image" of Hamas in Palestinian politics should invite analysis and discussion, not shut it down with pre-emptive labels.
"Are there right wing Israelis who, like Hamas, want to eradicate their neighbors in toto, and do their politics affect IDF conduct?" should be a valid line of questioning, subject to confirmation/disconfirmation via evidence-based discussion--unless criticism/exposure of Israel is forbidden by definition.

Simply re-repeating that "criticism of IDF war crimes equates them with Hamas," and claiming I'm somehow "ignoring" your points as you ignore arguments refuting them, is what makes for "circuitous argument."

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Regurgitate your lame tired horseshit ad infinitum, it doesn't change anything. You directly, and deliberately, equate the terrorist garbage humans in Hamas to segments of the Israeli government or the IDF. There is no comparison for a non-apologist for Hamas. Your circuitous banality and disingenuous arguments change nothing, you make excuses for rapists and murderers, and you do so deliberately. I haven't had to apply any label to you, I've merely had to point out the label you've willingly applied to yourself.

[Mike M (the other one)]

So Hamas has an excuse for behaving the way he has, but the IDF doesn't get the same benefit?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-12-2024, 11:29 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So Hamas has an excuse for behaving the way he has, but the IDF doesn't get the same benefit?

Correct.  But only if you're a terrorist apologist.  The problem for the left is that the Palestinians are the cause du jour, it is required of them to support the current thing.  But there's this pesky issue of Hamas being some of the worst human beings this species has ever produced.  So in order to square the circle for their support of men who wantonly gang rape, murder the elderly and kidnap babies and toddlers they instead have to switch focus to what baddies the IDF are.  Hence you'll see the completely one sided nature of their posts.  Except for Dill, he hasn't met a radical Islamic group that he won't carry water, and make excuses, for.

[GMDino]

(03-12-2024, 11:29 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So Hamas has an excuse for behaving the way he has, but the IDF doesn't get the same benefit?

Incorrect.  You can blame both Hamas and IDF for what they do when they are killing civilians.  

And, right or wrong, we expect the "good guys" to behave better than the bad guys.

Bruno Sammartino never used a foreign object like the Shiek did.  The US isn't suppose to torture POWs like the Japanese did.

Right now the issue is that the IDF is indiscriminately continuing to kill civilians while still claiming self defense from the attack in October, with the stated goal of wiping out Hamas.  Something that is impossible to do unless they plan on killing every man woman and child in the strip.

Israel has handled most of this poorly and it shows.

[GMDino]

(03-12-2024, 11:43 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Correct.  But only if you're a terrorist apologist.  The problem for the left is that the Palestinians are the cause du jour, it is required of them to support the current thing.  But there's this pesky issue of Hamas being some of the worst human beings this species has ever produced.  So in order to square the circle for their support of men who wantonly gang rape, murder the elderly and kidnap babies and toddlers they instead have to switch focus to what baddies the IDF are.  Hence you'll see the completely one sided nature of their posts.  Except for Dill, he hasn't met a radical Islamic group that he won't carry water, and make excuses, for.

Not sure if calling fellow posters "terrorist apologists" falls under the new rules or not.  I would think that is as bad as cult and is meant to provoke. Just saying.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-12-2024, 12:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: Not sure if calling fellow posters "terrorist apologists" falls under the new rules or not.  I would think that is as bad as cult and is meant to provoke. Just saying.

It's a description of a behavior and posting history.  If a poster consistently made excuses for the KKK, mitigating their actions and comparing them to BLM, would it not be appropriate to call their conduct as apologizing for racists?  So, I ask you, what do you call it when a person, over the course of years, consistently makes excuses for, and defends, groups such as Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hezbollah and Hamas?  In this very thread he directly equated Hamas to the right wing of the Israeli government.  Do you think that's an appropriate comparison?

Not that I expect a serious response.

[GMDino]

(03-12-2024, 12:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's a description of a behavior and posting history.  If a poster consistently made excuses for the KKK, mitigating their actions and comparing them to BLM, would it not be appropriate to call their conduct as apologizing for racists?  So, I ask you, what do you call it when a person, over the course of years, consistently makes excuses for, and defends, groups such as Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hezbollah and Hamas?  In this very thread he directly equated Hamas to the right wing of the Israeli government.  Do you think that's an appropriate comparison?

Not that I expect a serious response.

I'd say call them by their name.

Unless we want to start using "posting history" to label everyone as something?  What's to stop someone from labeling another poster as a racist or homophobe?  That's what the new rules are supposed to be addressing in part.

You do you.  I'm just trying to make sure we're within the rules here...and that requires more thought from posters (me included) about how and what we write.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-12-2024, 12:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'd say call them by their name.

Unless we want to start using "posting history" to label everyone as something?  What's to stop someone from labeling another poster as a racist or homophobe?  That's what the new rules are supposed to be addressing in part.

You do you.  I'm just trying to make sure we're within the rules here...and that requires more thought from posters (me included) about how and what we write.

You raise a fair point.  If someone consistently makes anti-homosexual posts and threads is it not appropriate to label them as homophobic?  Or at least their behavior?  Is there no conduct extreme enough to warrant such a statement? Or are we to sit back and simply tsk tsk them for their statements?

I'll ask again, btw.  Do you not think that equating Hamas with elements of the Israeli government is a bridge too far?  

[GMDino]

(03-12-2024, 12:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You raise a fair point.  If someone consistently makes anti-homosexual posts and threads is it not appropriate to label them as homophobic?  Or at least their behavior?  Is there no conduct extreme enough to warrant such a statement? Or are we to sit back and simply tsk tsk them for their statements?

I'll ask again, btw.  Do you not think that equating Hamas with elements of the Israeli government is a bridge too far?  

With "elements" of it?  Not if there is supporting evidence.

What's the old line from the 80s? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?  That's not to defend terrorism but to say perspective matters too.

There are "elements" of the gop that one could post evidence they support fascism.  

I still don't think we can say that a fellow poster is a "fascist apologist".

In the border thread there are some pretty severe thoughts on how to treat immigrants.  No one has been called a xenophobe.

If someone posts repeatedly the hate gay people and gay people are bad and need to be eliminated or forced to change or not act so "swishy" maybe you have a point. Perspective.

But I still think on these board labeling them would be frowned upon.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-12-2024, 12:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: With "elements" of it?  Not if there is supporting evidence.

Hence my use of the term.  There is plenty of supporting evidence in this very thread.

Quote:What's the old line from the 80s? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?  That's not to defend terrorism but to say perspective matters too.

To a point.  Can you make that same argument with Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia?  No, you cannot.  They are both demonstrably evil.  Hamas is no different, only more limited in ability and scale.

Quote:There are "elements" of the gop that one could post evidence they support fascism.  

I still don't think we can say that a fellow poster is a "fascist apologist".

To be sure, just as there are elements in the Democratic party that are communist, an equally extreme ideology.  Neither represent the stated goals or objectives of the organization or the beliefs of the majority of their members.  This argument cannot be made for Hamas.  Their goal is the destruction of Israel and eradication of the Jews in the Middle East.  How do we know that, because they flat out say it.  Consequently, anyone who choses to join Hamas, align with Hamas or defend Hamas does so knowing what their exact intentions are.  Hence your analogy falls apart almost immediately.

Quote:In the border thread there are some pretty severe thoughts on how to treat immigrants.  No one has been called a xenophobe.

Probably because there are very good arguments for limiting, and regulating, immigration that have nothing to do with xenophobia.  If the same person limited their comments to immigrants only from Latin America, for example, and not immigrants as a whole, then you've got a rather sound foundation for the accusation.

Quote:If someone posts repeatedly the hate gay people and gay people are bad and need to be eliminated or forced to change or not act so "swishy" maybe you have a point.  Perspective.

"Maybe", I'd have a point?  C'mon, don't let your being allergic to ever agreeing with me on anything force you to make such an obviously false statement.

Quote:But I still think on these board labeling them would be frowned upon.

If so it's rather a symptom of what's going on in general in this country.  Fear of causing offense leading people to tip toe around behavior that would have been lambasted not long ago.  I would conclude that you've had zero issue labeling me as a GOP supporting conservative, a label I do not believe applies to me at all.  I didn't cry about it, I disputed it with facts.  Whether they convinced anyone is for them to decide, but as an adult I have the ability to stick up for myself.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-12-2024, 12:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: In the border thread there are some pretty severe thoughts on how to treat immigrants.  No one has been called a xenophobe.

If you are referring to me with the severe thoughts, then If I am expected to follow the laws as a Citizen, then I damn well expect Immigrants to do the same. 
Illegals are breaking the law just by being here, but i already said can't stop them from working and feeding themselves but if caught breaking Laws then they need to be deported, no exceptions, they are willingly here and know what they are doing. Only exceptions would be those who were trafficked.

[GMDino]

(03-12-2024, 03:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: If you are referring to me with the severe thoughts, then If I am expected to follow the laws as a Citizen, then I damn well expect Immigrants to do the same. 
Illegals are breaking the law just by being here, but i already said can't stop them from working and feeding themselves but if caught breaking Laws then they need to be deported, no exceptions, they are willingly here and know what they are doing. Only exceptions would be those who were trafficked.

There are a few people with extreme thoughts on how to handle immigrants.  I only referenced it because no one used a label for those posters.