(05-01-2024, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Back to the actual topic.
Unlike some people here this woman can answer the question of whether they consider Hamas terrorists or freedom fighters.
“[Hamas] are not terrorists. They are resistance fighters. They are freedom fighters. And they are heroes for a new world . . . We stand with the Palestinian resistance and their heroic brave action on October 7.”
Hamas are "freedom fighters" and what they did on 10/07/23 was a good thing. All the while the crowd cheering.
Nothing pro-Hamas about these protests at all.
This is sad. I have the benefit of seeing the world after 56 years. These kids are 18-20 years old and are inexperienced in life. Their minds are easily persuaded. Where's it coming from?
(05-01-2024, 02:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This is sad. I have the benefit of seeing the world after 56 years. These kids are 18-20 years old and are inexperienced in life. Their minds are easily persuaded. Where's it coming from?
It is sad, and quite disturbing to say the least. I am guessing perhaps some schools/colleges depending on the teacher/professor and/or these kids have been getting brainwashed from social media and the like. But probably more of the latter.
(05-01-2024, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Back to the actual topic.
Unlike some people here this woman can answer the question of whether they consider Hamas terrorists or freedom fighters.
“[Hamas] are not terrorists. They are resistance fighters. They are freedom fighters. And they are heroes for a new world . . . We stand with the Palestinian resistance and their heroic brave action on October 7.”
Hamas are "freedom fighters" and what they did on 10/07/23 was a good thing. All the while the crowd cheering.
Nothing pro-Hamas about these protests at all.
Like, I am a firm believer in the concept that "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter." There is a difference, though, when the terrorist organization also terrorizes their own populace through authoritarian control. Once again, nuance is lost on these people.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(05-01-2024, 02:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This is sad. I have the benefit of seeing the world after 56 years. These kids are 18-20 years old and are inexperienced in life. Their minds are easily persuaded. Where's it coming from?
They remind me of the kids during the Vietnam era. They are all caught up in something that allows them to fight against the "establishment" They believe fighting for Palestinians is something noble. They don't believe the information they are being provided with. Adults today are reacting tp the protests much in the same way that they did
Where does it come from...they are living 70 years post WW2. They grew up in a different world than we did. They are less likely to have known someone who was directly involved in the war or the holocaust. Israel has been under the control of Netenayhu most of their lives and virtually all of their awareness of world events life. To them, Israel "reaps what they sows" Israel isn't protecting itself against hate and anti-semitism but rather suppressing and marginalizing the Palestinian people. Thy don't see Hamas as terrorists but as people who are fighting back against an oppressor. Netenayhu's and Israel's far-right rhetoric makes clear they want to destroy the Palestinians. These young people, especially on the campuses of elite colleges, are far more likely to have personally encountered Arab and Muslim classmates than previous generations so they hear the story of the Israeli/ME conflicts from different perspectives.
But they also are doing this because the last 8 years of their lives have been hell on their mental health. This is one of releasing untapped aggression and anger at the world in general.
And, by the way, just because I seek to understand their actions does not mean I agree with or condone them.
(05-01-2024, 02:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This is sad. I have the benefit of seeing the world after 56 years. These kids are 18-20 years old and are inexperienced in life. Their minds are easily persuaded. Where's it coming from?
(05-01-2024, 03:31 PM)Millhouse Wrote: It is sad, and quite disturbing to say the least. I am guessing perhaps some schools/colleges depending on the teacher/professor and/or these kids have been getting brainwashed from social media and the like. But probably more of the latter.
To both of these, I have offered my perception of why this is the case in the Columbia thread. The condensed version is that if two groups are in conflict the group that is more powerful is automatically the oppressor, and thus the bad guys, and the less powerful group is the oppressed, and thus the good guys.
(05-01-2024, 04:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:
Like, I am a firm believer in the concept that "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter." There is a difference, though, when the terrorist organization also terrorizes their own populace through authoritarian control. Once again, nuance is lost on these people.
There are certainly some conflicts were this could be the case. This is not one of them. That doesn't make Israel perfect, far from it, and especially under the current regime. They have religious hardliners that can give the other side a run for their money. But, and I'm depressed this even needs to be pointed out (not to anyone in this post), if your side engages in gang rape, murders elderly people and kidnaps and then kills infant and toddlers you're not the good guys and you're not "freedom fighters". You're sadistic pieces of shit.
The fact anyone here can praise that just further proves how deep the rot in the modern left has gotten. Gonna have to excise it or it's going to grow bigger and more malignant.
(05-01-2024, 04:23 PM)pally Wrote: They remind me of the kids during the Vietnam era. They are all caught up in something that allows them to fight against the "establishment" They believe fighting for Palestinians is something noble. They don't believe the information they are being provided with. Adults today are reacting tp the protests much in the same way that they did
Where does it come from...they are living 70 years post WW2. They grew up in a different world than we did. They are less likely to have known someone who was directly involved in the war or the holocaust. Israel has been under the control of Netenayhu most of their lives and virtually all of their awareness of world events life. To them, Israel "reaps what they sows" Israel isn't protecting itself against hate and anti-semitism but rather suppressing and marginalizing the Palestinian people. Thy don't see Hamas as terrorists but as people who are fighting back against an oppressor. Netenayhu's and Israel's far-right rhetoric makes clear they want to destroy the Palestinians. These young people, especially on the campuses of elite colleges, are far more likely to have personally encountered Arab and Muslim classmates than previous generations so they hear the story of the Israeli/ME conflicts from different perspectives.
But they also are doing this because the last 8 years of their lives have been hell on their mental health. This is one of releasing untapped aggression and anger at the world in general.
And, by the way, just because I seek to understand their actions does not mean I agree with or condone them.
You make some good points here. I do have to ask why the past "eight years" have been hell on their mental health? I can understand the past four, with the lockdowns, but how are getting the four before that?
(05-01-2024, 04:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: To both of these, I have offered my perception of why this is the case in the Columbia thread. The condensed version is that if two groups are in conflict the group that is more powerful is automatically the oppressor, and thus the bad guys, and the less powerful group is the oppressed, and thus the good guys.
Sounds like you are saying that when a more powerful group is in conflict with a less powerful group,
students can't really tell or aren't really interested in whether the more powerful group is actually oppressing
the less powerful group. I wonder where you are getting that.
Seems to me the history of protests shows the students generally get it right.
-civil rights, Vietnam, Apartheid, occupation of Palestine, etc.
(05-01-2024, 04:23 PM)pally Wrote: But they also are doing this because the last 8 years of their lives have been hell on their mental health. This is one of releasing untapped aggression and anger at the world in general.
And, by the way, just because I seek to understand their actions does not mean I agree with or condone them.
I can agree in part. You had the George Floyd riots, Covid, economy, etc. Although I would like to say I would have loved to have been stuck at home for months instead of school as a child, I didn't experience it so I really can only share a childlike celebration. Also, knowing what I do now, there's plenty of evidence the overkill on family time and lack of personal contact paid a toll on so many people.
(05-01-2024, 04:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: There are certainly some conflicts were this could be the case. This is not one of them. That doesn't make Israel perfect, far from it, and especially under the current regime. They have religious hardliners that can give the other side a run for their money. But, and I'm depressed this even needs to be pointed out (not to anyone in this post), if your side engages in gang rape, murders elderly people and kidnaps and then kills infant and toddlers you're not the good guys and you're not "freedom fighters". You're sadistic pieces of shit.
And I'm depressed this even needs to be pointed out, if your side engages in gang rape, and murder of elderly people and children,
to drive them off their land so you can have it, you are also not the good guys and you are not "freedom fighters."
No exceptions for special ethnic/religious groups.
(05-01-2024, 07:24 PM)Dill Wrote: Sounds like you are saying that when a more powerful group is in conflict with a less powerful group,
students can't really tell or aren't really interested in whether the more powerful group is actually oppressing
the less powerful group. I wonder where you are getting that.
From paying attention.
Quote:Seems to me the history of protests shows the students generally get it right.
-civil rights, Vietnam, Apartheid,
Were they right about Vietnam? I'm sure the thousands of people tortured and sent to "reeducation" camps after the war might have a different opinion.
Quote:occupation of Palestine, etc.
You keep trying to lump this is with the civil rights movement. No one here, or pretty much anywhere, is buying it. I'm sure the pro-Hamas protestor in the post your ignoring agrees with, though. She also approved of 10/07/23 and thought it was a good thing.
(05-01-2024, 07:30 PM)Dill Wrote: And I'm depressed this even needs to be pointed out, if your side engages in gang rape, and murder of elderly people and children,
to drive them off their land so you can have it, you are also not the good guys and you are not "freedom fighters."
No exceptions for special ethnic/religious groups.
Hmm, must have missed where the IDF did these things. I couldn't miss when Hamas did it, because they happily broadcast it. I notice you chose not to comment on the kidnapping and murder of infants. I'd probably try and pretend it didn't happen too if I were delusional enough to be on your side of this issue.
(05-01-2024, 04:23 PM)pally Wrote: They remind me of the kids during the Vietnam era. They are all caught up in something that allows them to fight against the "establishment" They believe fighting for Palestinians is something noble. They don't believe the information they are being provided with. Adults today are reacting tp the protests much in the same way that they did
As a "kid" who came of political age during the Vietnam war, I can say that some of this describes my own experience.
Protestors were considered immature and lacking in knowledge. We were just "rebelling against authority."
Adults wondered what "outside influences" were corrupting us. Moscow? "Leftists" professors were in the mix too.
Many calls to fire those guys, expel students, call in the National guard. Hire people who teach "America first" history. No propaganda.
I began protesting the war because I learned more about what caused it; yet many presumed my stance was based on an absence of information.
E.g. my parents and aunts and uncles didn't know a GOD DAMNED thing about the Geneva Accords or why the RSV, a Catholic remnant of the French colonial
administration, was hated by the vast majority of its own people. So I can feel an affinity with today's protestors on that score. One big difference--few people are calling these students "traitors," or not yet.
What pushed me over was the illegal bombing of Cambodia. So many thousands of rural villagers carpet bombed to death. Never knew what hit them.
That's probably the Gaza War for today's protestors.
(05-01-2024, 04:23 PM)pally Wrote: Where does it come from...they are living 70 years post WW2. They grew up in a different world than we did. They are less likely to have known someone who was directly involved in the war or the holocaust. Israel has been under the control of Netenayhu most of their lives and virtually all of their awareness of world events life. To them, Israel "reaps what they sows" Israel isn't protecting itself against hate and anti-semitism but rather suppressing and marginalizing the Palestinian people. Thy don't see Hamas as terrorists but as people who are fighting back against an oppressor. Netenayhu's and Israel's far-right rhetoric makes clear they want to destroy the Palestinians. These young people, especially on the campuses of elite colleges, are far more likely to have personally encountered Arab and Muslim classmates than previous generations so they hear the story of the Israeli/ME conflicts from different perspectives.
I think the bolded are important points. They are more likely to know Arab students.
But also, especially in "elite" universities, they are more likely to be exposed to post-colonial perspectives on history too.
Columbia was home to Edward Said, one of the most articulate spokespersons for the Palestinian cause, and other post-colonial
luminaries like Gayatri Spivak.
For my parents, the US had always been the good guys fighting bad Germans and Japanese and NK commies.
We didn't kill masses of innocents. It was hard for them to process My Lai and Cambodia. but eventually they did.
The parents of the Columbia protestors grew up in a world where Israel was a brave little country making the desert bloom,
surrounded by envious Arab bullies who just hated Jews. Palestinian "terrorists" were always coming from out of the blue
to attack them. Because of "hate." Israel always tried to make peace with them but they always rejected it.
(05-01-2024, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Back to the actual topic.
Unlike some people here this woman can answer the question of whether they consider Hamas terrorists or freedom fighters.
“[Hamas] are not terrorists. They are resistance fighters. They are freedom fighters. And they are heroes for a new world . . . We stand with the Palestinian resistance and their heroic brave action on October 7.”
Quote:Pro-Palestinian protest camps emerge at two more B.C. universities
VICTORIA — Pro-Palestinian protesters have set up encampments at two more British Columbia universities, as a wave of demonstrations at North American post-secondary institutions continued to spread. Canadian Pressabout 2 hours ago
Pro-Palestinian protesters have set up camp at a second university in British Columbia, days after the first one was erected at a Vancouver campus. People take over a field with tents during a student encampment for Palestine at the University of British Columbia campus in Vancouver, B.C., Monday, April. 29, 2024. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Ethan Cairns VICTORIA — Pro-Palestinian protesters have set up encampments at two more British Columbia universities, as a wave of demonstrations at North American post-secondary institutions continued to spread.
The University of Victoria confirmed Wednesday that a protest site had been established on campus, saying the school was "taking a calm and thoughtful approach" to minimizing disruptions stemming from the encampment in its quad.
"We encourage thoughtful, reasoned and academic discourse on current issues and maintain that these discussions must take place in an environment free from discrimination, harassment and hate speech of any kind," a statement from the university said.
"Out of an abundance of caution, campus security may be monitoring access to buildings near the demonstration and may ask people for information prior to entering these buildings."
Photos on social media show tents with Palestinian flags and signs with slogans, although no barriers had been set up around the encampment's perimeter. Security officers can be seen in some pictures watching protesters.
An official at Vancouver Island University in Nanaimo confirmed Wednesday a camp site had been set up on its campus too.
The university said in a statement that it is "monitoring the situation on our Nanaimo campus and (is) in contact with local RCMP."
An encampment has entered its third day at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, where protesters stockpiled food, water and other supplies in preparation for a prolonged stay.
In Quebec, a judge rejected an injunction request from two students at Montreal's McGill University to move a protest camp further away from school buildings, citing limited evidence of potential harms to students if the encampment remained in place.
McGill University remained neutral in the injunction request but had asked police to help to dismantle the camp, with authorities saying they were evaluating the situation and "advocating for a peaceful outcome."
Protest camps at Columbia University in New York and the University of California-Los Angeles have resulted in clashes, either between attendees and police or counter-protesters.
In Victoria, protest group Free Palestine BC said in a post on Instagram that protesters are demanding the university "divest from all investments" connected to companies with Israeli business interests.
The post also said protesters are demanding that the University of Victoria "cease partnering with Israeli academic institutions that constrain Palestinian rights."
"This encampment is in rejection of the University of Victoria's normalized relations and partnerships with universities that uphold policies of apartheid," the statement said, referring to the group's characterization of Israel's policies in Gaza.
The protests at North American colleges are in response to Israel’s offensive in Gaza, which came after Hamas launched a deadly attack on southern Israel on Oct. 7. Militants killed about 1,200 people, most of them civilians, and took roughly 250 hostages.
The Health Ministry in Gaza says Israel has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians in its offensive to stamp out Hamas.
Jewish groups in British Columbia have urged the administration at UBC to ensure the safety of Jewish students.
Hillel BC, a group representing Jewish students at seven post-secondary institutions in the province, said in a statement that it had asked UBC for "proactive measures" to prevent "disruption to student life and the educational process."
The statement posted on Instagram said the group had advised its community members not to engage the protest "in any way."
"We are closely monitoring the situation regarding the encampment at UBC," the statement said. "We have been in touch with the university administration to express our concerns and to request measures that ensure the ongoing demonstrations remain peaceful and respectful."
Hillel BC did not respond to a request for comment about the University of Victoria encampment.
The protesters at UBC say they are prepared to stay until the school agrees to demands that it support the Palestinian cause in the ongoing Israel-Hamas conflict.
Naisha Khan, a spokeswoman for the protest camp, said in a written response that the UBC camp is "still going strong" despite increased police presence around the site.
Khan said protesters will not leave until their demands are met, including for UBC to divest from all companies linked to Israel, participate in a "global academic boycott" of Israeli schools and publicly condemn Israeli actions in Gaza.
UBC officials said Wednesday they had no update on the encampment.
On Wednesday, Vancouver police said they arrested a 44-year-old woman in a hate-crime investigation stemming from a speech at a protest last Friday where she praised the Oct. 7 attack.
— by Chuck Chiang in Vancouver
This report by The Canadian Press was first published May 1, 2024.
The Canadian Press
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
Marge says she voted against the Anti-Semitism Act today because she’s concerned that if she says that Jews handed over Jesus to be killed by the Romans that could be considered a violation of the law. pic.twitter.com/tnAOf1s8B0
(05-01-2024, 04:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: To both of these, I have offered my perception of why this is the case in the Columbia thread. The condensed version is that if two groups are in conflict the group that is more powerful is automatically the oppressor, and thus the bad guys, and the less powerful group is the oppressed, and thus the good guys.
Kids who grew up in an era where some people attempted to redefine racism so that any race not at the top of the power structure were not capable of racism.
(05-01-2024, 07:27 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Although I would like to say I would have loved to have been stuck at home for months instead of school as a child
I would have because I grew up in an area where there was tons of space and things to do outdoors even if you're keeping yourself distanced from others. I can only imagine being a kid and spending a year indoors in a city apartment with potentially your parent or parents both home and either working remote or furloughed and everyone with nowhere to go, too much time on their hands, and too little to do in a cramped space wouldn't be anywhere nearly as enjoyable of an experience.
(05-01-2024, 09:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: Wow. That is horrible. And anyone who speaks like that is going way too far in the defense of the Palestinian people.
Where and who is irrelevant. You guys have twisted yourselves in knots trying to claim that the protests are in no way "pro-Hamas" despite evidence to the contrary. Lastly, in the US she would not have been arrested, she has a right to express her odious views, much as apologists here have the same right. Criminal prosecution for despicable beliefs is anathema to a free society. But criticizing the hell of out them is 100% ok.
(05-02-2024, 01:08 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Kids who grew up in an era where some people attempted to redefine racism so that any race not at the top of the power structure were not capable of racism.
Indeed. I can tell you form first hand, and considerable, experience that anyone making that argument is only trying to excuse their own racist sentiments and beliefs.
(05-02-2024, 03:08 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Where and who is irrelevant. You guys have twisted yourselves in knots trying to claim that the protests are in no way "pro-Hamas" despite evidence to the contrary. Lastly, in the US she would not have been arrested, she has a right to express her odious views, much as apologists here have the same right. Criminal prosecution for despicable beliefs is anathema to a free society. But criticizing the hell of out them is 100% ok.
Oh, based on what she said I'd agree that it does not matter where and when it was said when it comes to the argument that a few support Hamas directly.
In context of the discussion about "kids these days" it was a poor example. I simply provided the facts behind the speaker and the results of it in another country.
So no "twisting" at all.
And again I'll repeat myself that every generation thinks it is better than the next one and the one before it. There is nothing new about the protest OR the complaints and criticism of them. Nothing. Just history repeating itself...again.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(05-02-2024, 08:46 AM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, based on what she said I'd agree that it does not matter where and when it was said when it comes to the argument that a few support Hamas directly.
In context of the discussion about "kids these days" it was a poor example. I simply provided the facts behind the speaker and the results of it in another country.
So no "twisting" at all.
And again I'll repeat myself that every generation thinks it is better than the next one and the one before it. There is nothing new about the protest OR the complaints and criticism of them. Nothing. Just history repeating itself...again.
It's not about a generation being "better" or worse. It's about supporting terrorists. Since you had issues with the last one, maybe this is more your speed.
BREAKING: Rutgers SJP calls for the end of Israel
"Israel must fall. Free our prisoners, free them all."
A student yells this as a poster of Ahmad Sa'adat is shown behind him. Sa'adat is a Palestinian militant and Secretary-General of the Popular Front for the Liberation of… pic.twitter.com/8gNnvY0LPZ
Israel must fall, and free all prisoners. And yes, they clearly mean all the terrorists too. Notice the sign behind the kid chanting that? Who is the guy they're advocating for release? Ahmad Saadat is a convicted terrorist who masterminded the assassination of an Israeli minister.
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