Its OK now to teach religion in public schools

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 09:03 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The parallels are interesting. El Salvador was ruled by land owning elites and the poorest of Salvadorians did not have their own land to live on. Eventually there was a civil war and violence continues in the 20 years since. The South was controlled by land owning elites and the poorest (slaves) had no land themselves that was their home. After our Civil War, violence continued in that region for decades. Some would argue the violence lasted for 100 years. 



Look at every region with violence. The commonality is that they were all colonized. Ethnic groups in Africa and the Middle East were denied independence until long after Europeans had drawn their own lines that ignored historic feuds.

South America is a bit different given the fact that colonists did not preserve racial purity. You ended up having this social caste system based on where you were born and what percent of European you were. You had a series of wars for independence that occurred close to each other, but the end result was still just social elites ruling these places and the indigenous people being abused. Then it becomes a hotbed for trade goods in the late 1800s and 1900s when globalization starts, and these elites begin an even fiercer control of their people. After that, natural civil wars occur. Throw in Western nations supporting dictators to prevent socialism or communism and you have a recipe for disaster that will last for years. 

I guess we can thank Teddy Roosevelt for meddling in that region and causing problems.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(10-23-2015, 10:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I guess we can thank Teddy Roosevelt for meddling in that region and causing problems.

Would love it if you could expand on this.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 10:54 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Would love it if you could expand on this.

Roosevelt corollary. Where we began policing the area, which leads to propping up leaders who shouldn't be leading because of lack of support.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(10-23-2015, 11:10 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Roosevelt corollary.   Where we began policing the area, which leads to propping up leaders who shouldn't be leading because of lack of support.

Well we've been involved in the area for a very long time.  You didn't expand very much on your thoughts here.  I was hoping for a link or two.  Meh...I'll see what I can dig up.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 11:30 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Well we've been involved in the area for a very long time.  You didn't expand very much on your thoughts here.  I was hoping for a link or two.  Meh...I'll see what I can dig up.

I Will add thoughts a little later. That was the quick and dirty.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

Here's what I found.

http://millercenter.org/president/biography/roosevelt-foreign-affairs


The most spectacular of Roosevelt's foreign policy initiatives was the establishment of the Panama Canal. For years, U.S. naval leaders had dreamed of building a passage between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans through Central America. During the war with Spain, American ships in the Pacific had to steam around the tip of South America in two-month voyages to join the U.S. fleet off the coast of Cuba. In 1901, the United States negotiated with Britain for the support of an American-controlled canal that would be constructed either in Nicaragua or through a strip of land—Panama—owned by Colombia. In a flourish of closed-door maneuvers, the Senate approved a route through Panama, contingent upon Colombian approval. When Colombia balked at the terms of the agreement, the United States supported a Panamanian revolution with money and a naval blockade, the latter of which prevented Colombian troops from landing in Panama. In 1903, the Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty with Panama gave the United States perpetual control of the canal for a price of $10 million and an annual payment of $250,000.

When he visited Panama in 1906 to observe the building of the canal, Roosevelt became the first U.S. President to leave the country during his term of office. He wanted to see the spectacle, which became known as one of the world's greatest engineering feats. Nearly 30,000 workers labored ten-hour days for ten years to build the $400-million canal, during which time American officials were able to counteract the scourge of Yellow Fever that had ravaged large numbers of canal workers. The Panama Canal was finally completed in 1914; by 1925, more than 5,000 merchant ships had traversed the forty miles of locks each year. Once operational, it shortened the voyage from San Francisco to New York by more than 8,000 miles. The process of building the canal generated advances in U.S. technology and engineering skills. This project also converted the Panama Canal Zone into a major staging area for American military forces, making the United States the dominant military power in Central America.
Roosevelt Corollary
Latin America consumed a fair amount of Roosevelt's time and energy during his first term as President. Venezuela became a focus of his attention in 1902 when Germany and Britain sent ships to blockade that country's coastline. The European nations had given loans to Venezuela that the Venezuelan dictator refused to repay. Although both Germany and Britain assured the Americans that they did not have any territorial designs on Venezuela, Roosevelt felt aggrieved by their actions and demanded that they agree to arbitration to resolve the dispute. Santo Domingo (now the Dominican Republic) also encountered problems with European countries. Again, European investors had appealed to their governments to collect money from a debt-ridden nation Latin American nation. After the Dominican government appealed to the United States, Roosevelt ordered an American collector to assume control of the customs houses and collect duties to avoid possible European military action.
During the Santo Domingo crisis, Roosevelt formulated what became known as the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine. The Monroe Doctrine, issued in 1823, stated that the United States would not accept European intervention in the Americas. Roosevelt realized that if nations in the Western Hemisphere continued to have chronic problems, such as the inability to repay foreign debt, they would become targets of European invention. To preempt such action and to maintain regional stability, the President drafted his corollary: the United States would intervene in any Latin American country that manifested serious economic problems. The corollary announced that the United States would serve as the "policeman" of the Western Hemisphere, a policy which eventually created much resentment in Latin America.

[Vas Deferens]

(10-23-2015, 11:35 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I Will add thoughts a little later.  That was the quick and dirty.

We'll hold our breath  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-22-2015, 11:48 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Not sure what being christian has to do with any of this ....  But whatever ...  

That region has fostered a culture of lawlessness and violence for decades.   the government either 1. Does not care if their people are violent, 2. Refuse to end the violence because they are taking bribes or getting some sort of profit off the violence.

1)  You failed to name one person who defended El Salvador or claimed it was a paradise.

2)  How can it be a country of savages if 80% of the population are Christians and Christianity instills morals and values like you claim?

[Vas Deferens]

(10-23-2015, 12:26 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: 1)  You failed to name one person who defended El Salvador or claimed it was a paradise.

2)  How can it be a country of savages if 80% of the population are Christians and Christianity instills morals and values like you claim?

They are only savages while they are in the region.  Once they are send to Baltimore and Pat teaches them English, they are fine. Until they are 18 and need gov assistance.  Then they are a blight again.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 11:40 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Here's what I found.

http://millercenter.org/president/biography/roosevelt-foreign-affairs


The most spectacular of Roosevelt's foreign policy initiatives was the establishment of the Panama Canal. For years, U.S. naval leaders had dreamed of building a passage between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans through Central America. During the war with Spain, American ships in the Pacific had to steam around the tip of South America in two-month voyages to join the U.S. fleet off the coast of Cuba. In 1901, the United States negotiated with Britain for the support of an American-controlled canal that would be constructed either in Nicaragua or through a strip of land—Panama—owned by Colombia. In a flourish of closed-door maneuvers, the Senate approved a route through Panama, contingent upon Colombian approval. When Colombia balked at the terms of the agreement, the United States supported a Panamanian revolution with money and a naval blockade, the latter of which prevented Colombian troops from landing in Panama. In 1903, the Hay-Bunau-Varilla Treaty with Panama gave the United States perpetual control of the canal for a price of $10 million and an annual payment of $250,000.

When he visited Panama in 1906 to observe the building of the canal, Roosevelt became the first U.S. President to leave the country during his term of office. He wanted to see the spectacle, which became known as one of the world's greatest engineering feats. Nearly 30,000 workers labored ten-hour days for ten years to build the $400-million canal, during which time American officials were able to counteract the scourge of Yellow Fever that had ravaged large numbers of canal workers. The Panama Canal was finally completed in 1914; by 1925, more than 5,000 merchant ships had traversed the forty miles of locks each year. Once operational, it shortened the voyage from San Francisco to New York by more than 8,000 miles. The process of building the canal generated advances in U.S. technology and engineering skills. This project also converted the Panama Canal Zone into a major staging area for American military forces, making the United States the dominant military power in Central America.
Roosevelt Corollary
Latin America consumed a fair amount of Roosevelt's time and energy during his first term as President. Venezuela became a focus of his attention in 1902 when Germany and Britain sent ships to blockade that country's coastline. The European nations had given loans to Venezuela that the Venezuelan dictator refused to repay. Although both Germany and Britain assured the Americans that they did not have any territorial designs on Venezuela, Roosevelt felt aggrieved by their actions and demanded that they agree to arbitration to resolve the dispute. Santo Domingo (now the Dominican Republic) also encountered problems with European countries. Again, European investors had appealed to their governments to collect money from a debt-ridden nation Latin American nation. After the Dominican government appealed to the United States, Roosevelt ordered an American collector to assume control of the customs houses and collect duties to avoid possible European military action.
During the Santo Domingo crisis, Roosevelt formulated what became known as the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine. The Monroe Doctrine, issued in 1823, stated that the United States would not accept European intervention in the Americas. Roosevelt realized that if nations in the Western Hemisphere continued to have chronic problems, such as the inability to repay foreign debt, they would become targets of European invention. To preempt such action and to maintain regional stability, the President drafted his corollary: the United States would intervene in any Latin American country that manifested serious economic problems. The corollary announced that the United States would serve as the "policeman" of the Western Hemisphere, a policy which eventually created much resentment in Latin America.

Like I said meddling into others affairs. Which is why we are in the mess we are in today.

Europe had a right to park ships off the coast to collect their debts.

I think it was a serious over reach. Which was a large part of his presidency. As we have discussed this time period in prior threads.

[BmorePat87]

(10-23-2015, 10:33 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I guess we can thank Teddy Roosevelt for meddling in that region and causing problems.

You can thank a whole host of people going back hundreds of years. 

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 04:09 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You can thank a whole host of people going back hundreds of years. 

He was the one who started meddling in foreign affairs like it was his business. Then Wilson took it 2 steps further and FDR put it on steroids.

Since then it's just become more and more

[BmorePat87]

(10-23-2015, 05:08 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: He was the one who started meddling in foreign affairs like it was his business.   Then Wilson  took it 2 steps further and FDR put it on steroids.  

Since then it's just become more and more

and that's just the US...

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 08:41 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: and that's just the US...

We don't control what other countries do, we can however control what we do. If it's a bad idea now then we go back to where it started to find the root of the cancer.

[BmorePat87]

(10-23-2015, 08:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We don't control what other countries do, we can however control what we do.  If it's a bad idea now then we go back to where it started to find the root of the cancer.

You responded to me discussing the factors that have caused instability in continents that were once colonized. I wasn't only discussing American involvement. I wasn't even suggesting a change to policy, just explaining context of instability.

Some of us try to understand a situation instead of just being blatantly racist by calling all people from a region "animals" or "savages". 

[StLucieBengal]

(10-23-2015, 08:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You responded to me discussing the factors that have caused instability in continents that were once colonized. I wasn't only discussing American involvement. I wasn't even suggesting a change to policy, just explaining context of instability.

Some of us try to understand a situation instead of just being blatantly racist by calling all people from a region "animals" or "savages". 

I was discussing America's role. And as for colonization .... It certainly has worked out well in some places. And in others it's chaos. Maybe the geography matters. Maybe it doesn't .... But it's easy to see where the violence and lawless behavior certainly exists.

Maybe these areas just aren't civilized ....

[BmorePat87]

(10-23-2015, 10:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I was discussing America's role.   And as for colonization ....  It certainly has worked out well in some places.   And in others it's chaos.   Maybe the geography matters.    Maybe it doesn't ....   But it's easy to see where the violence and lawless behavior certainly exists.  

Maybe these areas just aren't civilized ....

Out of curiosity, what regions are you citing as successful colonization?

[StLucieBengal]

(10-24-2015, 09:43 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Out of curiosity, what regions are you citing as successful colonization?

British north America, Australia all fared quite well. Overall the British had more success than the Spanish Latin America. .

Actually Even the exploited colonies are growing faster than the Spanish exploited colonies like Colombia. South Africa is richer than Columbia . That has to do with successful colonization . Even in the worst scenario the British colonies dos better.

[Belsnickel]

(10-24-2015, 05:20 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: British north America, Australia all fared quite well. Overall the British had more success than the Spanish Latin America. .

Actually Even the exploited colonies are growing faster than the Spanish exploited colonies like Colombia. South Africa is richer than Columbia . That has to do with successful colonization . Even in the worst scenario the British colonies dos better.

So it worked out well in those places where the method of colonialization was, essentially, attempted genocide.

[BmorePat87]

(10-24-2015, 05:20 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: British north America, Australia all fared quite well.   Overall the British had more success than the Spanish Latin America. .  

Actually Even the exploited colonies are growing faster than the Spanish exploited colonies like Colombia.   South Africa is richer than Columbia .  That has to do with successful colonization . Even in the worst scenario the British colonies dos better.

I had a feeling you were going to cite Australia, Canada, and the US.

So the places where the British just massacred the native populations, populated it with Europeans, and created racial boundaries in society worked better? Makes sense. Had we not killed off so many Native Americans, we might have the same issue that they have in Africa or the Middle East where Europeans drew borders that ignored tribal and ethnic rivalries.