Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges

[*Nately120*]

(12-21-2022, 11:09 AM)ochocincos Wrote: There's no doubt though that Trump's argument is that he just said words and it was the choice of those supporters to take that action.

This is why Trump's standard reckless verbiage and lawless attitude have taken an interesting turn after the 2022 midterms.  It's interesting seeing conservatives who want to move on to DeSantis hope that Trump, the guy they've praised and/or made excuses for prodding his fanatical supporters into viewing all those who stand in his way as treasonous and underhanded enemies of the people, will simply stand down and accept being defeated by a fellow republican.

If/when Trump responds to losing to DeSantis with his usual "Rigged rigged rigged, fight fight fight, cheated cheated cheated, 2A 2A 2A" stuff, we'll see how things look to each side then.  At this point the left should be hoping Trump gets a free pass for 1/6, because his next upcoming loss is likely to be to a guy the left doesn't want to have a red carpet rolled out to the 2024 nomination. 

1/6 is over and Trump is focused on defeating the rest of the GOP now.  May as well send the message that everything he did to undermine losing an election, interfering with the results, and whipping up an angry mob are totally OK responses to losing.  Hell, I almost expect democratic politicians to fly a bunch of Trump supporters down to Tallahassee once Trump starts "totally doing nothing to cause a riot."

[Arturo Bandini]

(12-21-2022, 09:50 AM)Nately120 Wrote: But he was going to release them himself any day now!  

If it wasn't the audit, I'll show it right now ! But many people say it will be in 2 weeks !

[Arturo Bandini]

(12-21-2022, 11:46 AM)Nately120 Wrote: This is why Trump's standard reckless verbiage and lawless attitude have taken an interesting turn after the 2022 midterms.  It's interesting seeing conservatives who want to move on to DeSantis hope that Trump, the guy they've praised and/or made excuses for prodding his fanatical supporters into viewing all those who stand in his way as treasonous and underhanded enemies of the people, will simply stand down and accept being defeated by a fellow republican.

If/when Trump responds to losing to DeSantis with his usual "Rigged rigged rigged, fight fight fight, cheated cheated cheated, 2A 2A 2A" stuff, we'll see how things look to each side then.  At this point the left should be hoping Trump gets a free pass for 1/6, because his next upcoming loss is likely to be to a guy the left doesn't want to have a red carpet rolled out to the 2024 nomination. 

1/6 is over and Trump is focused on defeating the rest of the GOP now.  May as well send the message that everything he did to undermine losing an election, interfering with the results, and whipping up an angry mob are totally OK responses to losing.  Hell, I almost expect democratic politicians to fly a bunch of Trump supporters down to Tallahassee once Trump starts "totally doing nothing to cause a riot."

I'm very serious but you should consider a move to Europe. It would be all that you already have without all you don't want anymore in America.

We don't have guns though but the good news is that we don't need some.

[*Nately120*]

(12-21-2022, 12:51 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: I'm very serious but you should consider a move to Europe. It would be all that you already have without all you don't want anymore in America.

We don't have guns though but the good news is that we don't need some.

I appreciate that you don't mind the idea of me being on the same continent as you, but I'm fine here.  I don't really look at life as a case of what I want, so much as what I find interesting about things, particularly in regards to politics.

My job and my home life are fine, so other than gawking at and/or talking about politics on here my life hasn't changed much at all over the past decade no matter how much the political powers that be want to convince me that I've been bouncing back and forth between paradise and hell on earth.

[hollodero]

(12-21-2022, 11:46 AM)Nately120 Wrote: If/when Trump responds to losing to DeSantis with his usual "Rigged rigged rigged, fight fight fight, cheated cheated cheated, 2A 2A 2A" stuff, we'll see how things look to each side then.  At this point the left should be hoping Trump gets a free pass for 1/6, because his next upcoming loss is likely to be to a guy the left doesn't want to have a red carpet rolled out to the 2024 nomination. 

Yeah well, but no one should hope that anyone gets a free pass for multiple blatant attempts at overthrowing an election and usurping power. That this even needs spelling out is frightening. And I would have a problem with the democratic party if they were to think that way. Which of course is likely, since they already financially supported radical GOP candidates in their primaries for they might be easier to beat, a maneuver I found despicable. This is all irresponsible and playing with fire. 
Two-party system, what a choke, err, joke.

[*Nately120*]

(12-21-2022, 12:59 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah well, but no one should hope that anyone gets a free pass for multiple blatant attempts at overthrowing an election and usurping power. That this even needs spelling out is frightening. And I would have a problem with the democratic party if they were to think that way. Which of course is likely, since they already financially supported radical GOP candidates in their primaries for they might be easier to beat, a maneuver I found despicable. This is all irresponsible and playing with fire. 
Two-party system, what a choke, err, joke.

I think it's more like liberals giving up on Trump being held accountable for anything after getting away with decades of crime and finally, cynically, accepting that if he's going to get away with everything at least they might get to see him use his ability to get away with anything to attack their enemies for a change.

It's the schadenfreude of seeing the monster turn on his creator in the final reel.  Ideally, the monster never gets created, but that's not the world we live in.


The way I see it is that Trump is almost certainly going to get away with this, so we may as well try to enjoy the frustrating injustice for a change.  Plus, it will be interesting to see the insane coping going on if it does happen.  I'll start the theory that Trump was replaced by a robotic clone of himself who was programmed by George Soros to sling mud and throw fanatical henchmen at DeSantis.  The real Trump is being held prisoner in the basement of a local Dairy Queen along with JFK JR. and Obama's birth certificate. 

[hollodero]

(12-21-2022, 01:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think it's more like liberals giving up on Trump being held accountable for anything after getting away with decades of crime and finally, cynically, accepting that if he's going to get away with everything at least they might get to see him use his ability to get away with anything to attack their enemies for a change.

It's the schadenfreude of seeing the monster turn on his creator in the final reel.  Ideally, the monster never gets created, but that's not the world we live in.

It sure is. It's the world where democracy gets disintegrated and quashed between two millstones. I'd still find it shocking if DOJ and democrats and the state of law as a whole doesn't try anything in their power to serve justice to a subversive. It would be a fatal message to not do so. We already read the argument here, point blank, if conservatives try a coup they'd be good at it. And if there are no consequences, no doubt someone will try again.

[*Nately120*]

(12-21-2022, 01:48 PM)hollodero Wrote: It sure is. It's the world where democracy gets disintegrated and quashed between two millstones. I'd still find it shocking if DOJ and democrats and the state of law as a whole doesn't try anything in their power to serve justice to a subversive. It would be a fatal message to not do so. We already read the argument here, point blank, if conservatives try a coup they'd be good at it. And if there are no consequences, no doubt someone will try again.

Well, with the two party argument this whole situation is due to a two party system where one party has the field slanted so heavily in its favor that a guy who receives 3 million fewer votes can win in a landslide.  Go figure, the political party that has been given a systematic advantage is the one taken over by self-serving nuts.

This is coming from someone who wanted Gary Johnson to win in 2016 but knew he had no shot against a letter D and a letter R.

[hollodero]

(12-21-2022, 01:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, with the two party argument this whole situation is due to a two party system where one party has the field slanted so heavily in its favor that a guy who receives 3 million fewer votes can win in a landslide.  Go figure, the political party that has been given a systematic advantage is the one taken over by self-serving nuts.

This is coming from someone who wanted Gary Johnson to win in 2016 but knew he had no shot against a letter D and a letter R.

I know. You're amongst the persons probably most open to the argument that a two-party system is a horrible way to run a democracy. And I agree, of course, the two-party system is the root of the current evil, the underlying cause for the rise of Trump, and possibly your democracy's undoing. I do not think it's so much about one party having a systematic advantage, though it is true. But even if it weren't, the picture would still be the same, one of the parties always replacing the other one after a certain period, creating a 50/50 timeshare over time.

Until someone gets rid of it finally. Whch imho is bound to happen, especially since so many americans ae fundamentally frustrated with the system and many people's logic seems to be that it isn't really a coup attempt if it doesn't succeed. One more reason to go after Trump with all means available. If there's hesitation, it's water on the mills of those that claim Trump's little sweet coup attempts weren't a big deal to begin with.

[*Nately120*]

(12-21-2022, 02:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: I know. You're amongst the persons probably most open to the argument that a two-party system is a horrible way to run a democracy. And I agree, of course, the two-party system is the root of the current evil, the underlying cause for the rise of Trump, and possibly your democracy's undoing. I do not think it's so much about one party having a systematic advantage, though it is true. But even if it weren't, the picture would still be the same, one of the parties always replacing the other one after a certain period, creating a 50/50 timeshare over time.

Until someone gets rid of it finally. Whch imho is bound to happen, especially since so many americans ae fundamentally frustrated with the system and many people's logic seems to be that it isn't really a coup attempt if it doesn't succeed. One more reason to go after Trump with all means available. If there's hesitation, it's water on the mills of those that claim Trump's little sweet coup attempts weren't a big deal to begin with.

Meh, call me a pessimist but I think the USA has a lot more chance of becoming a 1 party country before it becomes as 3 party one. Actually, it could be argued that we currently have a two party system that consists of "conservative" and "way more conservative."

[hollodero]

(12-21-2022, 02:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, call me a pessimist but I think the USA has a lot more chance of becoming a 1 party country before it becomes as 3 party one.

That's my point.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-21-2022, 02:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: I know. You're amongst the persons probably most open to the argument that a two-party system is a horrible way to run a democracy. And I agree, of course, the two-party system is the root of the current evil, the underlying cause for the rise of Trump, and possibly your democracy's undoing. I do not think it's so much about one party having a systematic advantage, though it is true. But even if it weren't, the picture would still be the same, one of the parties always replacing the other one after a certain period, creating a 50/50 timeshare over time.

Until someone gets rid of it finally. Whch imho is bound to happen, especially since so many americans ae fundamentally frustrated with the system and many people's logic seems to be that it isn't really a coup attempt if it doesn't succeed. One more reason to go after Trump with all means available. If there's hesitation, it's water on the mills of those that claim Trump's little sweet coup attempts weren't a big deal to begin with.

Wouldn't it be great if there were no "parties" and it was just the candidates themselves?
Maybe it would result in people actually taking the time/effort to find out what each candidate actually stands for rather than just assuming if someone has a D or R that they hold exactly the same values as every D and R.


Regardless, I think what most people in favor of this criminal recommendation want is that Trump is barred from ever serving in public office again, even if he doesn't actually get criminally prosecuted.

[hollodero]

(12-21-2022, 04:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Wouldn't it be great if there were no "parties" and it was just the candidates themselves?
Maybe it would result in people actually taking the time/effort to find out what each candidate actually stands for rather than just assuming if someone has a D or R that they hold exactly the same values as every D and R.

That just would never work. You would still have the two political powerhouses, with all the power and influence and money and donors and respective compliant media houses. You'd end up with two candidates in a proxy war.

More parties would be fine, and a system where your vote actually counts for the party you are voting for. But that is unthinkable. For one, as much as the two parties despise each other, they are still united in never changing this system. It guarantees both of them all these things mentioned above.

(12-21-2022, 04:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Regardless, I think what most people in favor of this criminal recommendation want is that Trump is barred from ever serving in public office again, even if he doesn't actually get criminally prosecuted.

Yeah well, that still would amount to Trump being above the law.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-21-2022, 04:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: That just would never work. You would still have the two political powerhouses, with all the power and influence and money and donors and respective compliant media houses. You'd end up with two candidates in a proxy war.

More parties would be fine, and a system where your vote actually counts for the party you are voting for. But that is unthinkable. For one, as much as the two parties despise each other, they are still united in never changing this system. It guarantees both of them all these things mentioned above.



Yeah well, that still would amount to Trump being above the law.

While yes, I think many that don't support him would be willing to sacrifice him not getting jail time as long as he couldn't hold any official position in federal office ever again.

[*Nately120*]

(12-21-2022, 05:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While yes, I think many that don't support him would be willing to sacrifice him not getting jail time as long as he couldn't hold any official position in federal office ever again.

I feel like NOT imprisoning him but barring him from holding public office is the sort of combination that will convince his followers that he is completely innocent and he's being unjustly barred from resuming his position as the president. 

This country currently has like over 2 million people currently incarcerated but we're supposed to believe that Trump did way worse things than most of them but he can't be put in jail BUT hey....we can't make him president anymore either so that's acceptable...nothing suspicious about that, right? 

[*ochocincos*]

(12-21-2022, 05:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I feel like NOT imprisoning him but barring him from holding public office is the sort of combination that will convince his followers that he is completely innocent and he's being unjustly barred from resuming his position as the president. 

This country currently has like over 2 million people currently incarcerated but we're supposed to believe that Trump did way worse things than most of them but he can't be put in jail BUT hey....we can't make him president anymore either so that's acceptable...nothing suspicious about that, right? 

That's fair, but knowing how Trump likes to throw frivolous lawsuits out to delay/avoid things, what were to happen if he were to get charges delayed until the election season really kicks off in 2024? We're only a little over a year away from that really getting going, and Trump would try anything and everything to delay/avoid.

All I'm saying is the likelihood he would get prosecuted prior to the election feels low to me.
But the country definitely cannot afford to have him as president again, regardless whether he gets prosecuted or not.

[hollodero]

(12-21-2022, 05:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While yes, I think many that don't support him would be willing to sacrifice him not getting jail time as long as he couldn't hold any official position in federal office ever again.

I understand. The prize for that, however, is a shattered trust in the state of law. The message being that no one is above the law, except that person gained a certain amount of a following and political backing, then we can negotiate. A coup, well, for every citizen it would mean the FBI knocking, but for you, say, you can't be president any longer. And then, what about treason? Theft? Robbery? Murder? This would be an awful precedent.

No, I have no wiggle room, the state of law must prosecute Trump like it would any other ctizen. And if certain elements or people hinder the process, then at least they have to show their faces when doing so. It's a horrible idea to engage in any kind of preemptive obedience towards them.

[*Nately120*]

(12-21-2022, 05:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's fair, but knowing how Trump likes to throw frivolous lawsuits out to delay/avoid things, what were to happen if he were to get charges delayed until the election season really kicks off in 2024? We're only a little over a year away from that really getting going, and Trump would try anything and everything to delay/avoid.

All I'm saying is the likelihood he would get prosecuted prior to the election feels low to me.
But the country definitely cannot afford to have him as president again, regardless whether he gets prosecuted or not.

I hear ya, I'm just saying that stuff like "We can't imprison this guy but we're going to bar him from office" is going to validate the cult of Trump and possibly inspire them to commit more super peaceful things that are total nothingburgers. 

(12-21-2022, 05:44 PM)hollodero Wrote: I understand. The prize for that, however, is a shattered trust in the state of law. The message being that no one is above the law, except that person gained a certain amount of a following and political backing, then we can negotiate. A coup, well, for every citizen it would mean the FBI knocking, but for you, say, you can't be president any longer. And then, what about treason? Theft? Robbery? Murder? This would be an awful precedent.

No, I have no wiggle room, the state of law must prosecute Trump like it would any other ctizen. And if certain elements or people hinder the process, then at least they have to show their faces when doing so. It's a horrible idea to engage in any kind of preemptive obedience towards them.

Everyone knows certain people are above the law...the only difference now is if they cite Trump or Hunter Biden as proof of it.

[samhain]

(12-19-2022, 11:03 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I feel like its a game of chicken.

Very little chance DOJ prosecute him. Dems want him to run. GOP would love any excuse for him not to run, but dont have the stones to actually stand up to him.

It's complicated.  My belief was always that the Dems mainly wanted him to be ineligible to run again.  Now I think they likely want the opposite.  

[NATI BENGALS]

The same people who tell me I’m supposed to be upset people are coming to my country illegally to work and make a better life for themselves and their family, say we should just forget about the guy who tried to hijack my country at the highest level and has skirted the rules his entire life.

What a joke