Jan 6 Committee refers Trump (and others) for criminal charges

[M.W.]

(12-22-2022, 03:11 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: The same people who tell me I’m supposed to be upset people are coming to my country illegally to work and make a better life for themselves and their family, say we should just forget about the guy who tried to hijack my country at the highest level and has skirted the rules his entire life.

What a joke

Very true.  Be mad the folks from (OMG!!) darker skinned countries come to America and perform the jobs that we are far too lazy to do.  That's horrible, but we all like getting our hotel rooms cleaned right?  We eat the food they farm too.

A sitting president literally tries to end our representative democracy (I call that treason) and that is fine?  Gutless morons would love our democracy to end to help a stupid, fat, lazy, criminal, liar keep power.  It literally makes zero sense.

Nobody should be above the law - even if Fox News (who says they are not a real news source) thinks he is an inbred .. I mean born again Hitler... I mean Jesus.

[Leon]

(12-23-2022, 09:01 PM)M.W. Wrote: Very true.  Be mad the folks from (OMG!!) darker skinned countries come to America and perform the jobs that we are far too lazy to do.  That's horrible, but we all like getting our hotel rooms cleaned right?  We eat the food they farm too.

A sitting president literally tries to end our representative democracy (I call that treason) and that is fine?  Gutless morons would love our democracy to end to help a stupid, fat, lazy, criminal, liar keep power.  It literally makes zero sense.

Nobody should be above the law - even if Fox News (who says they are not a real news source) thinks he is an inbred .. I mean born again Hitler... I mean Jesus.

you shouldnt just lump everone in the same way. im a conservative an im all for legal immagrants and i think they do a great service. illegals is a different story. they are breaking the law but if they want to come legal i support them

[M.W.]

(12-23-2022, 11:51 PM)Leon Wrote: you shouldnt just lump everone in the same way. im a conservative an im all for legal immagrants and i think they do a great service. illegals is a different story. they are breaking the law but if they want to come legal i support them

Then you are one of the ones who haven't been brainwashed yet.  I applaud you because the country needs people who think differently but it must be based in reality not alternative facts and the platform shouldn't be painted with hate. 

[samhain]

(12-23-2022, 09:01 PM)M.W. Wrote: Very true.  Be mad the folks from (OMG!!) darker skinned countries come to America and perform the jobs that we are far too lazy to do.  That's horrible, but we all like getting our hotel rooms cleaned right?  We eat the food they farm too.

A sitting president literally tries to end our representative democracy (I call that treason) and that is fine?  Gutless morons would love our democracy to end to help a stupid, fat, lazy, criminal, liar keep power.  It literally makes zero sense.

Nobody should be above the law - even if Fox News (who says they are not a real news source) thinks he is an inbred .. I mean born again Hitler... I mean Jesus.

If the Trump loses his case and gets convicted of interfering with an election, he should be executed.  So should the morons that participated in the attack.  If you want to maintain representative democracy in good faith, then the response to such a deliberate and consequential act should be harsh.  It should deter anyone from trying it in the future.

The only reason this won't happen is that the federal government fears backlash from his followers, who would undoubtedly lose their shit and start committing acts of terrorism.  Any appropriate reaction will only embolden the MAGA mob.

I will say one thing; the more Trump screws around and pisses off the right wing establishment, the more he puts his ass on the line in ways he's probably too stupid to comprehend.  He was protected by the the party without fail due to fear of losing his base at the polls, but there's been a pretty significant shift even at  street level in the party from what I can tell.  The right will only be as loyal as polls allow them to be, and national/swing state elections have been a major failure for Trump.  He's toxic and weakens Republican candidates.  They'll only tolerate him for so long, and they have a very convenient means for disposing of him.  Just step out of the way and let the process play out.  Trump will flee to another country before he pays a heavy price, but he'll be out of the US political process for good.

[M.W.]

(12-25-2022, 11:48 AM)samhain Wrote: If the Trump loses his case and gets convicted of interfering with an election, he should be executed.  So should the morons that participated in the attack.  If you want to maintain representative democracy in good faith, then the response to such a deliberate and consequential act should be harsh.  It should deter anyone from trying it in the future.

The only reason this won't happen is that the federal government fears backlash from his followers, who would undoubtedly lose their shit and start committing acts of terrorism.  Any appropriate reaction will only embolden the MAGA mob.

I will say one thing; the more Trump screws around and pisses off the right wing establishment, the more he puts his ass on the line in ways he's probably too stupid to comprehend.  He was protected by the the party without fail due to fear of losing his base at the polls, but there's been a pretty significant shift even at  street level in the party from what I can tell.  The right will only be as loyal as polls allow them to be, and national/swing state elections have been a major failure for Trump.  He's toxic and weakens Republican candidates.  They'll only tolerate him for so long, and they have a very convenient means for disposing of him.  Just step out of the way and let the process play out.  Trump will flee to another country before he pays a heavy price, but he'll be out of the US political process for good.

Well stated and I agree 100%.

[GMDino]

Well folks it is all over.

Trump has declared "total immunity" so I guess there is nothing that can be done. 

Quote:In a post to his Truth Social account this Tuesday, former President Donald Trump declared that he has total immunity from prosecution.


“Very interesting, because until recently the political Hacks and Thugs of the highly partisan January 6th Unselect Committee were seldom talking about your favorite President, me, as it related to the PROTEST on Election Fraud,” Trump wrote. “NUMBER ONE, as President, I have total Immunity. Number two, I did nothing wrong.”

“Then the Committee members, mostly the same sleaze that pushed the Russia, Russia, Russia HOAX, started saying that “Trump” did it. Even Shifty Schiff got into the act again. SAD!!!” he added.


Trump was likely referring to the Jan. 6 committee’s recommendation that the Department of Justice charge Trump with offenses including inciting or assisting an insurrection and conspiring to defraud the United States.


The committee also released its 845-page report that accused Trump of being the leading figure in a “multi-part conspiracy” to overturn the 2020 election results and being the “central cause” of the riot at the U.S. Capitol.


From Newsweek:

Quote:Trump has previously attempted to use the argument that he has absolute immunity as part of an attempt to dismiss a number of civil lawsuits filed against him in relation to his actions during his presidency.

In November, Washington District Judge Emmet Sullivan ruled that Trump could not cite the presidential immunity defense in response to a lawsuit brought forward by the NAACP and the Michigan Welfare Rights Organization.

[*Nately120*]

Trump shouldn't say stuff like the president has "total immunity" because Grandpa Joe might believe him and press the "nuke Florida" button.

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(12-25-2022, 11:48 AM)samhain Wrote: If the Trump loses his case and gets convicted of interfering with an election, he should be executed.  So should the morons that participated in the attack.  If you want to maintain representative democracy in good faith, then the response to such a deliberate and consequential act should be harsh.  It should deter anyone from trying it in the future.

The only reason this won't happen is that the federal government fears backlash from his followers, who would undoubtedly lose their shit and start committing acts of terrorism.  Any appropriate reaction will only embolden the MAGA mob.

I will say one thing; the more Trump screws around and pisses off the right wing establishment, the more he puts his ass on the line in ways he's probably too stupid to comprehend.  He was protected by the the party without fail due to fear of losing his base at the polls, but there's been a pretty significant shift even at  street level in the party from what I can tell.  The right will only be as loyal as polls allow them to be, and national/swing state elections have been a major failure for Trump.  He's toxic and weakens Republican candidates.  They'll only tolerate him for so long, and they have a very convenient means for disposing of him.  Just step out of the way and let the process play out.  Trump will flee to another country before he pays a heavy price, but he'll be out of the US political process for good.

People who are within the highest ranks of the GOP will tell you they do not believe in democracy and that "We the people" shouldn't have the right to choose who's voted into federal office.  It should be decided by the state legislatures, and it's the bureaucrat's opinions are all that matter. The GOP does not believe we live in a democracy, they believe we live in a republic.  While that is true in part, we live in a Republic of democratically elected officials.  The GOP is out to remove all areas of "We the people" democracy and have us ruled by an autocrat, thus living under a fascist government.   

The GOP of 2016 going forward is night and day from your grandad's GOP of Reagan and George H W Bush. 

[*Nately120*]

(01-10-2023, 03:51 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: The GOP of 2016 going forward is night and day from your grandad's GOP of Reagan and George H W Bush. 

True...I think Alex P. Keaton would find himself being tossed out of the current GOP for sure.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-10-2023, 03:51 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: People who are within the highest ranks of the GOP will tell you they do not believe in democracy and that "We the people" shouldn't have the right to choose who's voted into federal office.  It should be decided by the state legislatures, and it's the bureaucrat's opinions are all that matter. The GOP does not believe we live in a democracy, they believe we live in a republic.  While that is true in part, we live in a Republic of democratically elected officials.  The GOP is out to remove all areas of "We the people" democracy and have us ruled by an autocrat, thus living under a fascist government.   

The GOP of 2016 going forward is night and day from your grandad's GOP of Reagan and George H W Bush. 

Indeed.
It's a big reason the Electoral College is even a thing.

If the president were decided purely by the popular vote, George W. Bush wouldn't have been president in 2000 and Trump wouldn't have been president in 2016.

It's also speculated that if the Electoral College was abolished and the presidency were decided purely by the popular vote, Republicans (at least in their current form) would never win another election.

[hollodero]

(01-10-2023, 04:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's also speculated that if the Electoral College was abolished and the presidency were decided purely by the popular vote, Republicans (at least in their current form) would never win another election.

I don't believe that. The nature of governing is that the opposition gains support and the governing party loses support. A two-party system will eventually always lead to a 50/50 power split over time, no matter the systematic advantages.

[*pally*]

(01-10-2023, 04:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Indeed.
It's a big reason the Electoral College is even a thing.

If the president were decided purely by the popular vote, George W. Bush wouldn't have been president in 2000 and Trump wouldn't have been president in 2016.

It's also speculated that if the Electoral College was abolished and the presidency were decided purely by the popular vote, Republicans (at least in their current form) would never win another election.

This goes to show that their ideas, or lack thereof, and policies are out of touch with the American people.  If they can't persuade voters that their ideas are worth voting for, that is on their choice of candidates and the ideas they espouse, not the voting public

[*ochocincos*]

(01-10-2023, 05:30 PM)pally Wrote: This goes to show that their ideas, or lack thereof, and policies are out of touch with the American people.  If they can't persuade voters that their ideas are worth voting for, that is on their choice of candidates and the ideas they espouse, not the voting public

Correct.

The meaning behind that statement is that public majority sentiment is straying further and further from Republican ideas/morals.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-10-2023, 04:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: I don't believe that. The nature of governing is that the opposition gains support and the governing party loses support. A two-party system will eventually always lead to a 50/50 power split over time, no matter the systematic advantages.

The problem is that (at least in NA, not sure about Europe) the vast, VAST majority of the right are older and dying off, thus here (both in Canada and the US) that statement would most-likely ring true.

Here in Canada (which has a similar but still different system than the electoral college... and it works 'cause we don't have a 2 party system in the slightest), you DO see the flip flop of popular vote more frequently... but our voter turnout is significantly worse than the US and it is well-known amongst the population here that those that do not turn out are on the left, as the right is also passing on, up here.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-10-2023, 04:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: I don't believe that. The nature of governing is that the opposition gains support and the governing party loses support. A two-party system will eventually always lead to a 50/50 power split over time, no matter the systematic advantages.

Depends how you look at it.

From what I notice, a majority of society is becoming far more supportive of inclusivity than what it was 30+ years ago.

A lot of the Republican (or at least old-school and now far-right) views seem to be opposite of that.


As long as Republicans have that view (or at least have the perception of having that view), they will be very unlikely to have a majority (at a national level, at least).

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2023, 02:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Depends how you look at it.

From what I notice, a majority of society is becoming far more supportive of inclusivity than what it was 30+ years ago.

A lot of the Republican (or at least old-school and now far-right) views seem to be opposite of that.


As long as Republicans have that view (or at least have the perception of having that view), they will be very unlikely to have a majority (at a national level, at least).

It'll be interesting to see where things go for the rest of my life.  Americans used to become more conservative as they aged because steady employment used to be more consistent in leading to the accumulation of wealth and therefore an increased approval for measures by which to conserve said wealth.  The GOP always had a playbook that used social and religious buzzwords to distract people while they pushed a financial agenda that wasn't in their best interest.

Many of the people who vote GOP but probably shouldn't are lower-middle class former union workers and retired rural types and they respond to "We're going to cut programs you need, but that's secondary to banning gay books and stopping sex trafficking drag queens."  As they begin to die off, the GOP is going to have to more economically depressed people to deal with who are less religious and more socially progressive.

All you have to do to judge the economic decline of America is look at Homer Simpson.  In 1989 that show was supposed to be a realistic look at a family that didn't have the sit-com staple, Cosby Show-style upper class life.  They were supposed to represent the situation of real imperfect people, but Homer also had a GED, a one income household, 3 kids, 2 cars, and a house...so it seems positively upper class by today's standards.

There are people my age and younger that respond to the GOP's current approach, but they're still going to have to change things up if they plan on staying relevant, I think. 

Trickle down economics was sold to people in a time where my ol' man had no college education but had a factory job where he had 2 kids and a house and two decent cars and my mom didn't have to work until I was 11 and my sister was 8.  Selling the idea that we need to cut taxes on the ultra rich because they're going to give you jobs that you can work 40+ hours a week for the rest of your life and still be relatively poor, is a much harder task...or at least it should be.

[hollodero]

(01-11-2023, 02:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Depends how you look at it.

From what I notice, a majority of society is becoming far more supportive of inclusivity than what it was 30+ years ago.

A lot of the Republican (or at least old-school and now far-right) views seem to be opposite of that.


As long as Republicans have that view (or at least have the perception of having that view), they will be very unlikely to have a majority (at a national level, at least).

Curious, isn't it. How a party that in many cases holds clear minority opinions can still hold 50% of the power, averaged over time. That is not explainable by the EC advantage. Eg. while the popular vote usually favors the democrat, it's still close and in no way represents these divergencies. And imho, that is because many people apparently quite clearly don't vote their assumed interest or assumed preferences. Including inclusivity and whatnot. (Btw. not everyone voting republicans is against inclusivity, I'm quite sure.)

Or put it another way, what would have to happen that democrats hold power in all branches over a decade plus? 15 years? 20 years, just democrats? Is that even imaginable? Imho, it is not, no matter how backwards or unsupported or unpopular the other party is. Quite the contrary, it would probably still lead to something like a 50/50 split. Because nothing is more unpopular then being in charge over a longer period of time and a significant portion will always vote for change. Even Trump can grow, we heard.



Edit: To underline my point, I will just add "midterm elections" and their common dynamics. Haha, the republicans only won so little, with a dem POTUS, those dorks, haha... that says it all, imho.

[hollodero]

(01-11-2023, 02:05 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The problem is that (at least in NA, not sure about Europe) the vast, VAST majority of the right are older and dying off, thus here (both in Canada and the US) that statement would most-likely ring true.

It's different, but in general I think the older generation is not the one overhelmingly supporting the right here. In my country, they have quite the following among younger folks, I guess the same is true for many others, but I dare not say. The dying generation usually means the traditional parties are dying off, and new ones emerge. For better or worse, but overall of course way preferrable to the totally sclerotic US system.

(01-11-2023, 02:05 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Here in Canada (which has a similar but still different system than the electoral college... and it works 'cause we don't have a 2 party system in the slightest), you DO see the flip flop of popular vote more frequently... but our voter turnout is significantly worse than the US and it is well-known amongst the population here that those that do not turn out are on the left, as the right is also passing on, up here.

If it's a consolation. It appears your country is quite progressive overall, and it probably made the left complacent. That can change through an election shock.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-11-2023, 06:35 PM)hollodero Wrote: Curious, isn't it. How a party that in many cases holds clear minority opinions can still hold 50% of the power, averaged over time. That is not explainable by the EC advantage. Eg. while the popular vote usually favors the democrat, it's still close and in no way represents these divergencies. And imho, that is because many people apparently quite clearly don't vote their assumed interest or assumed preferences. Including inclusivity and whatnot. (Btw. not everyone voting republicans is against inclusivity, I'm quite sure.)

Or put it another way, what would have to happen that democrats hold power in all branches over a decade plus? 15 years? 20 years, just democrats? Is that even imaginable? Imho, it is not, no matter how backwards or unsupported or unpopular the other party is. Quite the contrary, it would probably still lead to something like a 50/50 split. Because nothing is more unpopular then being in charge over a longer period of time and a significant portion will always vote for change. Even Trump can grow, we heard.



Edit: To underline my point, I will just add "midterm elections" and their common dynamics. Haha, the republicans only won so little, with a dem POTUS, those dorks, haha... that says it all, imho.

I get your point.
But there are quite a number of people who vote both ways even when they don't agree 100% of that party's stance.
For example, I know people who vote Republican because they want lower taxes, even if they don't agree with hardly anything else.
There's also people who definitely chose to vote Democrat because they flat-out hated the Republican presidential nominee.

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2023, 06:46 PM)hollodero Wrote: It's different, but in general I think the older generation is not the one overhelmingly supporting the right here. In my country, they have quite the following among younger folks, I guess the same is true for many others, but I dare not say. The dying generation usually means the traditional parties are dying off, and new ones emerge. For better or worse, but overall of course way preferrable to the totally sclerotic US system.



If it's a consolation. It appears your country is quite progressive overall, and it probably made the left complacent. That can change through an election shock.

I do feel like the whole USA version of "You'll get older and become a republican" can keeps getting kicked down the road.  I'm technically a millenial, and even though I'm 41 my group is considered to be too young, dumb, stupid, poor, and idealistic to realize republicans are the right choice.

So even if republicans are the right choice, it seems like that magic number for when you suddenly see the light because you are smarter, or have more money, or have kids, or whatever people say will "convince you to be republican eventually" keeps getting higher and higher.