Jan 6 Hearings

[CJD]

(06-10-2022, 02:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, I did not.  I responded to the assertion that this issue would be a determinizing factor in the '22 and '24 elections.  I pointed out why I disagreed with that assertion. 


Really?  Whichever party is in charge at the time will be blamed by the vast, vast majority of voters.  Honestly, you really sound like you're indulging in some wishful thinking here.

Except the person you quoted didn't say determinizing factor. They simply said "one of the tests in 2022/2024." Which seems like a pretty uncontroversial statement.


If they said "This is the only thing that will determine who you vote for" then I'd agree with you, but that doesn't appear to be what they're saying. I think it will sway some percentage of independents, especially Republicans who voted against Trump will likely stay away from the Republicans again in 2022 until he's no longer part of the picture. But I think it's probably 3 or 4 on the list, at most, for the majority of people. And I think it's basically insignificant to anyone who's even somewhat inclined to voting for Trump.

[hollodero]

(06-10-2022, 02:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe he supported the "stolen election" in the very early days and then really never commented on it again.  So, and I am, of course, speculating here, he could have thought it had some merit originally and then exited stage right once it became apparent it did not.

He said little about the election since, even my article continues to say. So well, alright, maybe, when applying the most benefit of the doubt sentiment possible, one might be able to see it the way you do. But even if. As someone believing in democracy, there's a point where one would need to clarify his position and make clear that Trump is in the wrong here. It's just that important really. DeSantis, however, wouldn't even say that Pence did not have the right to upend the certification of the election, hence not rebutting yet another coup attempt. And his stance on a third one, the Capitol storm ('not an insurrection, overblown, politicised Chartlie Foxtrot'), is way too weak and hence not satisfactory as well to me. And at some point, my will to apply benefit of the doubt runs out.

Any presidential candidate, that's how I'd feel, has to check these boxes without ambiguity. The 2020 electon was not stolen and rigged, Pence should/could not have refused certifying the election results, and the Capitol storm was at least shameful. Whoever is not able or willing to say so imho should not be a viable choice. But for sure, my voice in this doesn't matter, I'm however still quite afraid about the path the US is taking here.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2022, 03:02 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Except the person you quoted didn't say determinizing factor. They simply said "one of the tests in 2022/2024." Which seems like a pretty uncontroversial statement.


If they said "This is the only thing that will determine who you vote for" then I'd agree with you, but that doesn't appear to be what they're saying.

Cool, I enjoy parsing hairs as much as anyone.  I stand by my point, 01/06 will make literally zero impact on the '22 and '24 elections for reasons I've already stated.  You disagree, cool. 

[CJD]

(06-10-2022, 03:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Cool, I enjoy parsing hairs as much as anyone.  I stand by my point, 01/06 will make literally zero impact on the '22 and '24 elections for reasons I've already stated.  You disagree, cool. 

Well yea. that's what the forums are for. Disagreeing with people :).

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2022, 03:03 PM)hollodero Wrote: He said little about the election since, even my article continues to say. So well, alright, maybe, when applying the most benefit of the doubt sentiment possible, one might be able to see it the way you do. But even if. As someone believing in democracy, there's a point where one would need to clarify his position and make clear that Trump is in the wrong here. It's just that important really. DeSantis, however, wouldn't even say that Pence did not have the right to upend the certification of the election, hence not rebutting yet another coup attempt.  And his stance on a third one, the Capitol storm ('not an insurrection, overblown, politicised Chartlie Foxtrot'), is way too weak and hence not satisfactory as well to me. And at some point, my will to apply benefit of the doubt runs out.

Any presidential candidate, that's how I'd feel, has to check these boxes without ambiguity. The 2020 electon was not stolen and rigged, Pence should/could not have refused certifying the election results, and the Capitol storm was at least shameful. Whoever is not able or willing to say so imho should not be a viable choice. But for sure, my voice in this doesn't matter, I'm however still quite afraid about the path the US is taking here.

I can understand that.  But we aren't exactly spoiled for choice in this country.  All thing considered I would absolutely vote for DeSantis over any feasible Dem nominee.  I would add that would be the first time I ever voted GOP.  I would have enthusiastically done so if McCain had gotten the nod in'00, but I sadly did not get that chance.

[StoneTheCrow]

(06-10-2022, 03:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Cool, I enjoy parsing hairs as much as anyone.  I stand by my point, 01/06 will make literally zero impact on the '22 and '24 elections for reasons I've already stated.  You disagree, cool. 

I’m curious what percentage of the voting population who can’t afford gas, groceries, or get baby formula are thinking “Two years later, a multitude of crises in front of us and their attention is still laser focused on this??”

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2022, 03:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Well yea. that's what the forums are for. Disagreeing with people :).

No, it's not.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2022, 03:11 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: I’m curious what percentage of the voting population who can’t afford gas, groceries, or get baby formula are thinking “Two years later, a multitude of crises in front of us and their attention is still laser focused on this??”

Yeah, I think the Dems are really hoping these hearings are going to be a panacea for their current woes.  I don't see it, at all.  Trump may come out of this irreparably damaged, but that's about it.  The Dems are going to get annihilated in November.  If things keep going the way they appear to be it'll be massive.

[BigPapaKain]

(06-10-2022, 11:34 AM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Or, and hear me out, not all conservatives are flag waving raving Q-Anon lunatics, closeted or not.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[StoneTheCrow]

(06-10-2022, 03:18 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I'll believe it when I see it.

(Raises hand)

[BigPapaKain]

(06-10-2022, 03:20 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: (Raises hand)

Much like John Cena, I can't see you. 

[hollodero]

(06-10-2022, 03:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can understand that.  But we aren't exactly spoiled for choice in this country.

That is the underlying tragedy, isn't it. Team red or team blue, two options and that's it. At times I wonder if i can even call that a choice, or a real democracy for that matter.

(06-10-2022, 03:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: All thing considered I would absolutely vote for DeSantis over any feasible Dem nominee.

I understand why, I will make no effort to persuade you otherwise. That being said, here's the case I would make for a moderate Democratic candidate (as I perceive Biden to be). A vote for such a person would strengthen the moderate wing in the party, those that don't shout defund the police and so on. Not voting for such a person might be the path for the less moderate portions of the party to gain more influence. And then sooner or later one of those people will be nominated and win a presidential election (given the next republican-connived effort to get rid of them has not succeeded), because team blue wins once in a while no matter who or what. That would be said case of mine for voting for a moderate Democrat over a democracy-averse republican. I don't know, makes sense in my head.

(06-10-2022, 03:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I would add that would be the first time I ever voted GOP. 

Which sounds wild to me. Now, of all times. When the current GOP proved time and again that they in the largest part are just spineless sycophants to Trump (and then some). Democrats really got that much worse in the same timespan that it's even worse than that... well who am I to say it isn't so. Thanks Callie.

[*Nately120*]

(06-10-2022, 03:20 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: (Raises hand)

RINO!!!!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2022, 03:45 PM)hollodero Wrote: That is the underlying tragedy, isn't it. Team red or team blue, two options and that's it. At times I wonder if i can even call that a choice, or a real democracy for that matter.

Yes, it's hardly ideal.  There should be a decent middle ground between that and a situation such as Italy.  I'm thinking four viable parties at most. 

Quote:I understand why, I will make no effort to persuade you otherwise. That being said, here's the case I would make for a moderate Democratic candidate (as I perceive Biden to be). A vote for such a person would strengthen the moderate wing in the party, those that don't shout defund the police and so on. Not voting for such a person might be the path for the less moderate portions of the party to gain more influence. And then sooner or later one of those people will be nominated and win a presidential election (given the next republican-connived effort to get rid of them has not succeeded), because team blue wins once in a while no matter who or what. That would be said case of mine for voting for a moderate Democrat over a democracy-averse republican. I don't know, makes sense in my head.

I think the days of the moderate are temporarily over.  Biden is absolutely no longer a moderate, not by the standards I grew up with.

Quote:Which sounds wild to me. Now, of all times. When the current GOP proved time and again that they in the largest part are just spineless sycophants to Trump (and then some). Democrats really got that much worse in the same timespan that it's even worse than that... well who am I to say it isn't so. Thanks Callie.

I've witnessed the immense amount of damage caused, and still being caused, by the Democratic party's positions.  I honestly wish I could take you out in the field and show you the reality of this.  I started this job over twenty years ago, and some of the old hands when I started really tried to impress how much better things had generally gotten since the 80's and 90's.  Now I'm the old hand and all I can tell the newer officers is how terribly shitty things have gotten and to stick with it because the pendulum has to swing back at some point.  I really want to believe that, and maybe Boudin being shit canned in San Francisco is the start of it.  I'm definitely not holding my breath though.

[StoneTheCrow]

(06-10-2022, 03:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: RINO!!!!

What Liz and I choose to identify as is not your punchline!

[Belsnickel]

(06-10-2022, 03:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think the days of the moderate are temporarily over.  Biden is absolutely no longer a moderate, not by the standards I grew up with.

Man, I'd hate to see what you would think of people with actual progressive policies like the Roosevelts.

[masonbengals fan]

Dems thought they were getting a Roosevelt, but America got stuck with a Hoover.

[Belsnickel]

(06-10-2022, 08:11 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Dems thought they were getting a Roosevelt, but America got stuck with a Hoover.

No, none of the Dems thought they were getting a Roosevelt. They knew what they were getting. They were just hoping for more Senate seats so they could at least leverage the situation a little more.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2022, 07:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Man, I'd hate to see what you would think of people with actual progressive policies like the Roosevelts.

Teddy? 

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Americans didn't want Biden.

Americans wanted Not Donald Trump. I hope they truck his dumb ass out there to lose again. Criticize the Dems all you want, that orange stain is on your watch.