Jersusalem "off the table"

[Dill]

Jerusalem off the table, Middle East conflict back on.

This might be a foreign policy learning moment for US voters, as Trump suddenly makes US aid an explicit standard of US diplomacy worldwide--except for Israel--and something like a loyalty test. So would the personal-authoritarian dynamic currently plaguing the DOJ be elevated to international diplomacy?

And would Trump and his advisors be more or less likely to blow up the Iran deal after this? Would they see that as complicating US Middle East policy now about to undergo a severe test or would they just shrug off such potential complications?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/25/politics/trump-small-embassy-jerusalem/index.html

CNN)President Donald Trump threatened to cut off aid to the Palestinians on Thursday if their leaders don't agree to peace talks with Israel, a hardline negotiating tactic that will do little to rebut the notion he's abandoned US neutrality in the long-simmering Middle East dispute.
Speaking ahead of talks with Israel's prime minister on the sidelines of the economic summit in Davos, Trump said Palestinians had disrespected the United States by not agreeing to meet with Vice President Mike Pence during his trip to the region last week.
And he declared Jerusalem "off the table" in negotiations after he declared the disputed city the capital of Israel last year.

"They're going to have to want to make peace," Trump said, "or we're going to have nothing to do with them any longer."
"We'll see what happens with the peace process but respect has to be shown to the US or we'll just not going any further," he said.
The President's remarks sparked renewed debate about whether the US is still able to play the role of mediator in the decades-long Israeli-Palestinian dispute.

And flatly contradictory comments by Trump and some of his senior officials on the status of Jerusalem are raising questions about the administration's peace plan, which remains a mystery to most of the players on both sides. . . . .

Palestinians thought otherwise. Trump is "blackmailing the Palestinian people and punishing them for fighting and believing in their freedom and human rights," according to a statement from Palestine Liberation Organization Secretary-General Saeb Erekat, responding to Trump's remarks at Davos.

In New York, the Palestinian representative to the UN, Riyad Mansour, recalled the early days of the Trump administration, when there was some hope the President's interest in making "the ultimate deal" would spur progress.
"In the span of a year we have seen hopes rise for peace and the sudden dashing of those hopes," Mansour told the Security Council. "The dramatic deterioration of the situation, the escalation of tensions and the deepening of political deadlock are cause for great concern."

[StLucieBengal]

Cut off all Palestinian aid.

Israel just needs to march in and move them out anyway. They can go back to Jordan and Egypt.

So tired of hearing the crybaby stuff from the Palestinians. Either move or let them and Israel fight it out and winner takes all. No reason anyone who elects hamas as tbejr leaders should be ever remotely respected.

[Dill]

(01-26-2018, 12:37 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Cut off all Palestinian aid.  

Israel just needs to march in and move them out anyway.   They can go back to Jordan and Egypt.  

So tired of hearing the crybaby stuff from the Palestinians.  Either move or let them and Israel fight it out and winner takes all.   No reason anyone who elects hamas as tbejr leaders should be ever remotely respected.

We hear "crybaby stuff" from most any ethnic group, including Jews, when people kill them and take their property.

But I am not sure that Americans' high threshold for Palestinian grief should determine what happens on the ground in Palestine.

You consider the EU the second coming of the Soviet Union, setting economic policy for freely joining members, but you are pro-ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

That suggests that whatever grounds your value choices in international politics, it is not a conception of universal human rights.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-26-2018, 01:29 PM)Dill Wrote: We hear "crybaby stuff" from most any ethnic group, including Jews, when people kill them and take their property.

But I am not sure that Americans' high threshold for Palestinian grief should determine what happens on the ground in Palestine.

You consider the EU the second coming of the Soviet Union, setting economic policy for freely joining members, but you are pro-ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

That suggests that whatever grounds your value choices in international politics, it is not a conception of universal human rights.

Anyone who freely elects terrorists to govern them does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Negotiations have not worked. Heck we even have Citizen john Kerry meddling in the peace talks.

Just let them fight it out. And as far as aid goes they shouldn’t be getting any money regardless.

The Palestianins can always go back to their homelands of Jordan and Egypt if they do not want to fight.

If the Palestinians want to be taken seriously then dump Abbas and hamas. Highly corrupt.

[fredtoast]

(01-26-2018, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Just let them fight it out.

The question is who is included in "them".

Iran? Saudi Arabia?  Egypt? Russia?  The United States?

[StLucieBengal]

(01-26-2018, 02:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The question is who is included in "them".

Iran? Saudi Arabia?  Egypt? Russia?  The United States?

Israel vs Palestinians.

No assistance. Just let the two groups settle it out. Last group standing takes the whole thing.

The settlements are a perfect Example. Israel is actually making that area nice and habitable.

[fredtoast]

(01-26-2018, 04:29 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Israel vs Palestinians.  

No assistance.    Just let the two groups settle it out.   Last group standing takes the whole thing.    

The settlements are a perfect Example.   Israel is actually making that area nice and habitable.

So when you say "no assistance" you mean the US should not supply any money or weapons to Israel?

And what if another country jumps in to help the Palestinians?  Do you think the United States should get involved then?

[StLucieBengal]

(01-26-2018, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So when you say "no assistance" you mean the US should not supply any money or weapons to Israel?

And what if another country jumps in to help the Palestinians?  Do you think the United States should get involved then?

Obviously this won’t happen because the Muslims won’t be able to contain themselves.

But it would be nice if we just have Israel and Palestinians just end it since negotiations have proven to not work.

The world would be a better place if the palestinians just went back to Jordan and Egypt where they belong. Then Israel can move forward improving the area.

[Dill]

(01-26-2018, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Anyone who freely elects terrorists to govern them does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.  
Negotiations have not worked.   Heck we even have Citizen john Kerry meddling in the peace talks.  

Just let them fight it out. And as far as aid goes they shouldn’t be getting any money regardless.  
The Palestianins can always go back to their homelands of Jordan and Egypt if they do not want to fight.  

If the Palestinians want to be taken seriously then dump Abbas and hamas.   Highly corrupt.

Still so puzzling. You don't want to let Europeans "fight it out" with votes in the EU, but you are for bloody ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

I still don't see any conception of universal human rights in your judgments here. Do you think the concept of universal human rights is "globalist" and should be replaced with national, ethnic or religious criteria of rights?  

For example, do you define "terrorism" the same for Israelis as for Palestinians? It does not appear that you do. I am not sure why you seem to think Israelis "deserve the benefit of the doubt."

Jordan and Egypt are the homelands of Jordanians and Egyptians.  Palestine is the homeland of Palestinians.

Finally, when you say "they" shouldn't be getting any money, do you mean Israelis too?  We float their economy to the tune of 3 billion plus a year, and have been for over three decades now.  

[StLucieBengal]

(01-26-2018, 05:13 PM)Dill Wrote: Still so puzzling. You don't want to let Europeans "fight it out" with votes in the EU, but you are for bloody ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

I still don't see any conception of universal human rights in your judgments here. Do you think the concept of universal human rights is "globalist" and should be replaced with national, ethnic or religious criteria of rights?  

For example, do you define "terrorism" the same for Israelis as for Palestinians? It does not appear that you do. I am not sure why you seem to think Israelis "deserve the benefit of the doubt."

Jordan and Egypt are the homelands of Jordanians and Egyptians.  Palestine is the homeland of Palestinians.

Finally, when you say "they" shouldn't be getting any money, do you mean Israelis too?  We float their economy to the tune of 3 billion plus a year, and have been for over three decades now.  

I would cut all aid to everyone but that’s another discussion. The Palestinians are led by terrorists. Jordan is currently 70% Palestinian. That’s their country.

If you care about human rights then you encourage them to leave and go back to Jordan. Then staying there is just making the human rights issue worse. At least letting Israel loose on them would at least nudge them to leave.

In the end the Palestinians are a joke who do not deserve our money or sympathy as long as they keep electing terrorists to lead them.

[Dill]

(01-26-2018, 05:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I would cut all aid to everyone but that’s another discussion.    The Palestinians are led by terrorists.   Jordan is currently 70% Palestinian.   That’s their country.

If you care about human rights then you encourage them to leave and go back to Jordan.   Then staying there is just making the human rights issue worse.   At least letting Israel loose on them would at least nudge them to leave.  

In the end the Palestinians are a joke who do not deserve our money or sympathy as long as they keep electing terrorists to lead them.

You seem to be ignoring my points and questions, Lucy.  If Israel elected terrorists, would you be ok with that, or is it only bad when Palestinians do that? Seems like you are deploying definitions without thinking much about them. I add that Hamas only has political control in Gaza, not the West Bank, so its a bit rash to speak as if all Palestinians elected Hamas.

Jordan has Palestinians because they were driven out of Palestine, their homeland. That is why they are still called Palestinians and not Jordanians.   Many Palestinians still live in their homeland, Palestine. Why tell them to go back to Jordan or Egypt, places where they have never lived?  

Letting Israel loose on them would certainly make the human rights issue worse. Why would anyone who cares about human rights want to see people driven from their land? 

Would it be fair to say that you do not care about human rights, at least defined as universal?  

[StLucieBengal]

(01-26-2018, 05:57 PM)Dill Wrote: You seem to be ignoring my points and questions, Lucy.  If Israel elected terrorists, would you be ok with that, or is it only bad when Palestinians do that? Seems like you are deploying definitions without thinking much about them. I add that Hamas only has political control in Gaza, not the West Bank, so its a bit rash to speak as if all Palestinians elected Hamas.

Jordan has Palestinians because they were driven out of Palestine, their homeland. That is why they are still called Palestinians and not Jordanians.   Many Palestinians still live in their homeland, Palestine. Why tell them to go back to Jordan or Egypt, places where they have never lived?  

Letting Israel loose on them would certainly make the human rights issue worse. Why would anyone who cares about human rights want to see people driven from their land? 

Would it be fair to say that you do not care about human rights, at least defined as universal?  

I don’t deal in hypotheticals. But rest assured if Israel elected Islamic terrorists to lead them then yes I would call it out.

Also Abbas is corrupt and just as bad as hamas.

The Palestinians are like that trailer park down the street messing up your property values. They have no interest in bettering themselves and are fine living in garbage.

You keep trying to act like I do not care about human rights.... I assume you are trying to create pity for the “poor” Palestinians. They get no sympathy from me because if they can’t find common ground after all these years on a two state solution then the only possible way forward is a one state solution with Israel in control. Their corrupt and terrorist leaders won’t clnpromise because they lose power, so they let the normal people suffer. They will suffer if they fight it out or stay in negotiations. At least one way they have a chance to flee or surrenders. These people deserve to be taken out of limbo. Have mercy on them already.

[fredtoast]

(01-26-2018, 07:11 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I don’t deal in hypotheticals.   But rest assured if Israel elected Islamic terrorists to lead them then yes I would call it out.  

Ariel Sharons own government found him guilty of terrorist acts.  In fact he killed a lot more people than Bill Ayers.

Is that why you limited your answer to "Islamic" terrorists?

[StLucieBengal]

(01-26-2018, 08:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ariel Sharons own government found him guilty of terrorist acts.  In fact he killed a lot more people than Bill Ayers.

Is that why you limited your answer to "Islamic" terrorists?

Just staying on the topic.

Now Cue several posts about the poor Palestinians.

[fredtoast]

(01-26-2018, 08:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Just staying on the topic.

That was exactly what I was trying to do.

(01-26-2018, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Anyone who freely elects terrorists to govern them does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.  

(01-26-2018, 05:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  a joke who do not deserve our money or sympathy as long as they keep electing terrorists to lead them.

(01-26-2018, 07:11 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  Their corrupt and terrorist leaders won’t clnpromise because they lose power,

[Dill]

(01-26-2018, 07:11 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I don’t deal in hypotheticals.   But rest assured if Israel elected Islamic terrorists to lead them then yes I would call it out.  

Also Abbas is corrupt and just as bad as hamas.  

The Palestinians are like that trailer park down the street messing up your property values.    They have no interest in bettering themselves and are fine living in garbage.    

You keep trying to act like I do not care about human rights.... I assume you are trying to create pity for the “poor” Palestinians.   They get no sympathy from me because if they can’t find common ground after all these years on a two state solution then the only possible way forward is a one state solution with Israel in control.   Their corrupt and terrorist leaders won’t clnpromise because they lose power, so they let the normal people suffer.    They will suffer if they fight it out or stay in negotiations.    At least one way they have a chance to flee or surrenders.   These people deserve to be taken out of limbo.   Have mercy on them already.

Human rights are not "hypotheticals."  Either you respect and affirm them or you do not.

If you think that all people are born with equal rights, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity, then you cannot justify one ethnic group taking the land and homes of another by force.

If you think that some ethnic groups have rights that others do not, then it makes sense to defend them when they take what belongs to others.  Your take on the Palestinians is consistent with the latter, not the former. It is bad if some Palestinians in Gaza elect terrorists to lead them, but not bad if Israelis elect terrorists.

You say the Palestinians, whose land has been taken, cannot find "common ground" with the people who took their land and won't give it back.  This is like saying that a mugging victim deserves to be mugged if he can't talk the mugger into handing back some of his money.

Your solution to Palestinian loss of land is to let the Israelis take the rest by force.  And you say Palestinians deserve to be robbed this way.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-29-2018, 03:57 PM)Dill Wrote: Human rights are not "hypotheticals."  Either you respect and affirm them or you do not.

If you think that all people are born with equal rights, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity, then you cannot justify one ethnic group taking the land and homes of another by force.

If you think that some ethnic groups have rights that others do not, then it makes sense to defend them when they take what belongs to others.  Your take on the Palestinians is consistent with the latter, not the former. It is bad if some Palestinians in Gaza elect terrorists to lead them, but not bad if Israelis elect terrorists.

You say the Palestinians, whose land has been taken, cannot find "common ground" with the people who took their land and won't give it back.  This is like saying that a mugging victim deserves to be mugged if he can't talk the mugger into handing back some of his money.

Your solution to Palestinian loss of land is to let the Israelis take the rest by force.  And you say Palestinians deserve to be robbed this way.

Look. I am tired of negotiations going nowhere on a two state solution. Israel has given in to almost every demand for only hamas to come up with more demands. The fact is Abbas or hamas doesn’t want peace because they know that will include them no longer being in power. They want to stay the status quo where they get our money to let their people be human shields and live in shanty towns.

It’s clear the only solution is a one a state solution an Israel state. They will at least build up the area as they are doing in the settlements. The Palestinians are the only people who get upset at their neighboring country building up the land next to them. I wish we had Israel on our southern border.

As for your human rights comment. I don’t want anyone to die. But I think it’s time to let everyone know that we are moving to an Israel one state and you can either petition to join peacefully or leave. If you stay and become a problem then you will be subjected to force. I said the comment of letting them fight it out because I know the leaders of the palestianians would never walk away from their golden goose. The Palestinian people only have themselves to blame as they elect terrorists and allow people like Abbas to get control who are criminals.

[Dill]

(01-29-2018, 05:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Look.  I am tired of negotiations going nowhere on a two state solution.  Israel has given in to almost every demand for only hamas to come up with more demands.    The fact is Abbas or hamas doesn’t want peace because they know that will include them no longer being in power.   They want to stay the status quo where they get our money to let their people be human shields and live in shanty towns.    

It’s clear the only solution is a one a state solution an Israel state.  They will at least build up the area as they are doing in the settlements.   The Palestinians are the only people who get upset at their neighboring country building up the land next to them.    I wish we had Israel on our southern border.  

As for your human rights comment.   I don’t want anyone to die.   But I think it’s time to let everyone know that we are moving to an Israel one state and you can either petition to join peacefully or leave.   If you stay and become a problem then you will be subjected to force.     I said the comment of letting them fight it out because I know the leaders of the palestianians would never walk away from their golden goose.   The Palestinian people only have themselves to blame as they elect terrorists and allow people like Abbas to get control who are criminals.

Just two quick points, Lucy.

1. This is a hot button issue for both of us, obviously.  But through it all, you have kept your cool and focused on the issues. Thanks for doing that.  Your last post is your most substantive, I think.

2. I think we disagree on the history of negotiations. Palestinians have come to the table again and again, and as they are doing so, the Israelis keep taking their land and bulldozing their homes.  If Israel wants to create a Greater Israel by absorbing the West Bank, then it is proceeding on schedule. The strategy is to keep building settlements while throwing impossible demands at the Palestinians. Then when they throw up their hands in frustration, the Israeli and US press speaks of Palestinian intransigence.  Without US pressure on Israel, there simply is no motivation for Israel to cut any deal or stop settlements.  The current state of Israel was wrenched from Palestinians by force, and now the West Bank is being assimilated piecemeal. 

So the Palestinians do not have only themselves to blame if a more powerful military, with US assistance, takes away their land. In the words of MLK: Time to blame the robber, not the victim.

[fredtoast]

(01-29-2018, 05:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: It’s clear the only solution is a one a state solution an Israel state. 

That is the only solution as long as the United States spends $8.5 Million PER DAY to support Israel.

If the US really did back out and let the locals "fight it out"  It would be Israel against Arabs not just Israel against Palestinians.  And there is no way you would sit back and let that happen.

[BmorePat87]

If the weapons we have today existed in the 18th and 19th centuries, this would be the US and with Native Americans being Palestinians.