Joe Rogan apologises for using N-word and racist Planet of the Apes story

[Dill]

(02-08-2022, 06:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:But that "unknowing" racist is the corollary of any conception of "systemic racism" that I am aware of. Keeping that unknowing unknown is the only way systemic racism can continue, and critique from it be deflected, in a liberal democracy founded on natural equality. 

Again, incorrect.  Your entire premise is based on the flawed assertion that unknowingly committing a racist act makes a person a closet or "unknowing" racist.  You can certainly have unconscious biases, but you absolutely cannot be an unknowing racist.

You admit that people may "certainly have unconscious biases." 

Can you also admit that unconscious biases may influence people's actions--unconsciously?  
(Really, no point in calling them "biases" if they have no effect on behavior.)

If the answer is yes, then mightn't some of these biases be "racist" in nature?  If not, then why not?

If you do grant that some unconscious biases may be racist in nature, and that people may unknowingly act on unconscious biases, 
then you must also grant that

1. people can "commit racist acts" unconsciously--i.e, unknowingly, or

2. that racist acts committed unconsciously aren't, then, really racist acts.  

#1 might help explain why Black families cannot get housing loans so readily as white families with similar levels of income, and why black drivers might be more frequently stopped than white for "routine" checks. And it might help foot policies for redress.
https://www.zillow.com/research/black-denial-rate-hmda-2020-30510/
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/may/black-drivers-more-likely-to-be-stopped-by-police.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/11/us/missouri-traffic-stops-black-drivers-trnd/index.html

#2 might help explain--what? Nothing. Certainly not the discriminatory behaviors and effects just described. Or at best it would define them out of existence. Excuse them. Useless for policy.  Yet this seems to be the option you are invested in.  

[Belsnickel]

Honestly, Rogan is a faux intellectual who has been misinforming millions. You don't like him, don't listen to him. No controversy over what he has said is going to change anyone's mind at this point. All it does is causes his supporters to dig their heels in harder in support of him. Controversies like this just boost his public image and he would be more likely to gain listeners than lose them.

IDGAF what he says. When people bring up his podcast around me I just say that I don't listen because I don't want to increase his revenue in any way because he is a piece of shit. That usually ends the conversation right there. That's all I need to say.

[Dill]

(02-08-2022, 06:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:I only differ from the bolded in that I think people who make ape/black jokes ARE endorsing the supposed "link" between black people and apes. They help to naturalize what its a specific cultural inheritance, explain it away as a "natural" visual association anyone anywhere could make. 

Of course you do, because you, like many far left people, see racism everywhere.  An interesting assertion, that racism requires no mens rea.  Also, your underlined is a gross, and IMO deliberate, mischaracterization of what is being argued.  No one views it as "natural", we view it as common knowledge.  Like any racist trope about any ethnicity, it's not a secret.  Hence people, of all races, will automatically make mental connections between a situation, occurrence or action that aligns with that trope.  Making that connection in no way implicates that person as a racist, it merely reveals they are aware of the trope.  In order for a person to be racist there has to be intent to be racist.  You may say something racist without having racist intent, but that absolutely does not make a person racist.  It is only when the statement is deliberate in its intent to be racist that we can infer the true feeling of the person uttering them.  Under your overly simplistic definition nearly every single stand up comedian in the past forty years is a racist.

Well, that's not just MY assertion.  As mentioned above, you don't seem especially read up on this issue.

So the specific cultural tradition which associates blacks with apes is "common knowledge" rather than "natural," but still an "automatic mental connection"? Where's the "deliberate mischaracterization" exactly?  

Patrick Rushing, Republican mayor of Airway Heights, Washington, wrote this on Facebook: “Gorilla face Michelle, can't disagree with that. The woman is not attractive except to monkey man Barack. Check out them ears. LOL.”
https://www.ibtimes.com/washington-mayor-michelle-obama-gorilla-face-facebook-post-patrick-rushing-refuses-2013601
And he wouldn't resign, because he said, "that’s admitting I’m a racist and I’m not.”  He was just making playful banter. Facebook is funny.

So if they say they are not racist, are people like Rushing, who make that "automatic" connection between blacks and apes, merely "aligning with a trope" then? Merely revealing their "awareness"? 

Joking on that trope just can't be racist if it would make forty years worth of stand up comedians racist? 

You've posited an analogy between "criminal" and "racist acts" as if both were equally hard to commit without intention, and as easily identifiable when they really occur. 

But do all criminals know/agree that the criminal acts they intend to commit are really criminal? Are no violations of law "criminal" unless there was "conscious intent"? No criminals who think they are not criminal?  No racists who think/say they are not?

[Dill]

(02-09-2022, 08:23 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, Rogan is a faux intellectual who has been misinforming millions. You don't like him, don't listen to him. No controversy over what he has said is going to change anyone's mind at this point. All it does is causes his supporters to dig their heels in harder in support of him. Controversies like this just boost his public image and he would be more likely to gain listeners than lose them.

IDGAF what he says. When people bring up his podcast around me I just say that I don't listen because I don't want to increase his revenue in any way because he is a piece of shit. That usually ends the conversation right there. That's all I need to say.

I don't much like to concede space/discussion to the mis/dis/underinformed. They are why the country is in such a perilous state at the moment.

Supporters may dig in their heels, but there are always some people new to these issues who may learn something from open discussion.So I don't want to end conversation about these topics, especially when I am engaged with the other side. 

We cannot challenge all that disinformation by backing off for fear of increasing bad actor's visibility. Not be such a bad thing in this case, as more and more people are beginning to see what Rogan is really about. He's lost Rock's support now. 

[GMDino]

(02-09-2022, 08:23 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, Rogan is a faux intellectual who has been misinforming millions. You don't like him, don't listen to him. No controversy over what he has said is going to change anyone's mind at this point. All it does is causes his supporters to dig their heels in harder in support of him. Controversies like this just boost his public image and he would be more likely to gain listeners than lose them.

IDGAF what he says. When people bring up his podcast around me I just say that I don't listen because I don't want to increase his revenue in any way because he is a piece of shit. That usually ends the conversation right there. That's all I need to say.

Ha.   I tried that by sharing his own quote where he calls himself an idiot and says no one should listen to him.  His "fans" on FB took me to task for not knowing he was really an idiot or not.

Some people will defend anything.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-09-2022, 09:05 AM)Dill Wrote: Well, that's not just MY assertion.  As mentioned above, you don't seem especially read up on this issue.

If only your intellectual prowess was matched by your ability to be condescending.  As predictable as it is sad, and compounded by the fact that it was your sixth or seventh attempt at that post and that was the best you could do.

[Dill]

(02-09-2022, 01:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote: Well, that's not just MY assertion.  As mentioned above, you don't seem especially read up on this issue.

If only your intellectual prowess was matched by your ability to be condescending.  As predictable as it is sad, and compounded by the fact that it was your sixth or seventh attmpt at that post and that was the best you could do.

I can't tell if you know you are firing blanks, or not.

But here's another chance to move away from personal attack lite and produce something of substance 
by actually testing your definition of what counts as a "racist act" with a common "real life" example, 
where we cannot stipulate intentions as it suits us.

Rushing, and others, who call Michelle Obama a "gorilla"--

If they say they are not racists making racist comments, wouldn't you have to agree they are not,
given your requirement that racist acts/remarks must be "intended" as such to count? 

Can you focus your response on this thread discussion topic, without sharing how my "ability" makes you feel? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-09-2022, 08:08 PM)Dill Wrote: I can't tell if you know you are firing blanks, or not.
But here's another chance to move away from personal attack lite and produce something of substance 

First off, congrats on not needing eight attempts to get your post right this time.  Second, you have a lot of balls calling me out for being personal given your previous post.  Hypocrisy, thy name is Dill.

[Dill]

(02-09-2022, 08:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote:I can't tell if you know you are firing blanks, or not. But  here's another chance to move away from personal attack lite and produce something of substance 

First off, congrats on not needing eight attempts to get your post right this time.  Second, you have a lot of balls calling me out for being personal given your previous post.  Hypocrisy, thy name is Dill.

Whaaa ??? the lying racist faux intellectual who doesn't measure up to the street people you deal with every day got personal? 

Hypocrisy? Or maybe not. 

Noting that you don't appear "read up" on the definitions of racism you struggle to refute isn't just another form of name-calling/personal attack, anymore than is noting you are now using that as an excuse to avoid substantive engagement.  

If you were actually "read up" you had plenty of chances to demonstrate that

--but squandered them counting edits instead. 

keeper

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-09-2022, 09:08 PM)Dill Wrote: Whaaa ??? the lying racist faux intellectual who doesn't measure up to the street people you deal with every day got personal? 

Hypocrisy? Or maybe not. 

Noting that you don't appear "read up" on the definitions of racism you struggle to refute isn't just another form of name-calling/personal attack, anymore than is noting you are now using that as an excuse to avoid substantive engagement.  

If you were actually "read up" you had plenty of chances to demonstrate that

--but squandered them counting edits instead. 

keeper

These have to sound better in your head then when other people read them.  

[BmorePat87]

(02-08-2022, 03:07 PM)basballguy Wrote: Not the point of this thread but Spotify is absolutely amazing.  You sound like you hate music.  :)  (No i don't really think you hate music)

Easily my top used streaming subscription. **** Joe Rogan, I'm still paying for my premium account.

[Belsnickel]

(02-09-2022, 11:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Easily my top used streaming subscription. **** Joe Rogan, I'm still paying for my premium account.

I'm not a Spotify user, anyway, but that has more to do with how they compensate the artists. The big name players don't pay out as well as some of the others out there, and as a pro-worker kind of guy I tend to be more in favor of fair compensation. So I use Tidal, which isn't the best but does a better job of it than other platforms (and has better sound quality if you really are an audiophile).

My lack of Spotify use may be a big reason why I just don't seem to give a **** about all this Rogan nonsense, though.

[WiregrassBenGal]

Why is that guy still a celebrity? I still equate him with eating rotten goat cheese.

[CKwi88]

(02-10-2022, 08:11 AM)WiregrassBenGal Wrote: Why is that guy still a celebrity? I still equate him with eating rotten goat cheese.

Society loves making stupid people famous. Most of the time it can be pretty harmless, other times not so much.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2022, 08:11 AM)WiregrassBenGal Wrote: Why is that guy still a celebrity? I still equate him with eating rotten goat cheese.

(02-10-2022, 09:27 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: Society loves making stupid people famous. Most of the time it can be pretty harmless, other times not so much.

I don't really listen to podcasts, although Russel Brand's is pretty good.  But what I have heard of Rogan's show did show me the guy is a pretty good broadcaster.  Also, you get a smattering of different people on, he'll listen to everyone, which is much more interesting than endlessly hearing the same type of people.

[Dill]

(02-09-2022, 10:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: These have to sound better in your head then when other people read them.  

Test your definition of "racism" against real life examples. 

Then you know it doesn't just sound better in your head.

Republican mayor says Michelle looks like a gorilla and Obama is a monkey.
But says he is not racist. 

How does your definition apply? 

[GMDino]

(02-10-2022, 09:27 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: Society loves making stupid people famous. Most of the time it can be pretty harmless, other times not so much.

This is 100% correct.

Kudos.

[*Nately120*]

(02-10-2022, 12:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't really listen to podcasts, although Russel Brand's is pretty good.  But what I have heard of Rogan's show did show me the guy is a pretty good broadcaster.  Also, you get a smattering of different people on, he'll listen to everyone, which is much more interesting than endlessly hearing the same type of people.

Ida know...im skeptical Rumble would offer a 100 million dollar contract to a guy who listens to everyone. 

[GMDino]

(02-10-2022, 05:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ida know...im skeptical Rumble would offer a 100 million dollar contract to a guy who listens to everyone. 

I'd add that listening to "everyone" isn't always the same as learning anything.  

I could listen to the My Pillow guy but I doubt having a conversation with him, for three hours, would advance anyone's knowledge.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2022, 05:04 PM)Dill Wrote: Test your definition of "racism" against real life examples.

I do, literally every single day I'm at work. 

Quote:Then you know it doesn't just sound better in your head.

I sound good anywhere.

Quote:Republican mayor says Michelle looks like a gorilla and Obama is a monkey.

Quote:But says he is not racist. 

How does your definition apply? 

Ahahaha, seriously?  This is your argument?  My definition would not apply in this one, specific, instance (which you conjured out of thin air, not me).  Is his denial believable?  Is Rogan's explanation on the same level as this guy's denial?  I'll leave it to you to figure that one out by yourself.  Oh man, this is really one of your weakest attempts to twist the argument, and that's saying something.