Quote:WASHINGTON (AP) — A special prosecutor found that the FBI rushed into its investigation of ties between Russia and Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign and relied too much on raw and unconfirmed intelligence as he concluded a four-year probe that fell far short of the former president’s prediction that the “crime of the century” would be uncovered.
The report Monday from special counsel John Durham represents the long-awaited culmination of an investigation that Trump and allies had claimed would expose massive wrongdoing by law enforcement and intelligence officials. Instead, Durham’s investigation delivered underwhelming results, with prosecutors securing a guilty plea from a little-known FBI employee but losing the only two criminal cases they took to trial.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
I don't know about "crime of the century", it's the usual Trump hyperbole. But this type of mistake in such a high profile case is far worse than simple incompetence. I've worked high profile cases, none nearly as high profile as an investigation into a Presidential candidate and then POTUS. You simply don't make that type of mistake in them, the scrutiny and stakes are simply too high. So, while it didn't turn up criminal wrongdoing I absolutely think it turned up a massive bias towards Trump within the FBI. Way too many higher ups had to touch this case for these types of mistakes to not have been deliberate.
(05-15-2023, 08:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't know about "crime of the century", it's the usual Trump hyperbole. But this type of mistake in such a high profile case is far worse than simple incompetence. I've worked high profile cases, none nearly as high profile as an investigation into a Presidential candidate and then POTUS. You simply don't make that type of mistake in them, the scrutiny and stakes are simply too high. So, while it didn't turn up criminal wrongdoing I absolutely think it turned up a massive bias towards Trump within the FBI. Way too many higher ups had to touch this case for these types of mistakes to not have been deliberate.
I guess my big unanswered question in all of this was how much was this the result of bias versus how much was the result of the systemic issues the OIG uncovered that were really just the way things were being done overall?
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(05-15-2023, 09:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I guess my big unanswered question in all of this was how much was this the result of bias versus how much was the result of the systemic issues the OIG uncovered that were really just the way things were being done overall?
Honestly, this being business as usual would be the more frightening alternative. Bias would be a serious problem, to be sure, but that level of incompetence being common would be horrifying.
(05-15-2023, 09:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Honestly, this being business as usual would be the more frightening alternative. Bias would be a serious problem, to be sure, but that level of incompetence being common would be horrifying.
Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but federal law enforcement abuses of power like this just do not surprise me at all. I'm not saying it was incompetence, I am seeing it as these LEOs did not see what they were doing as wrong because of the systems in place that supported them.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(05-15-2023, 10:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but federal law enforcement abuses of power like this just do not surprise me at all. I'm not saying it was incompetence, I am seeing it as these LEOs did not see what they were doing as wrong because of the systems in place that supported them.
I have to admit, the older I get the less confidence I have in institutions. Knowing the history of the FBI under Hoover it being capable of corruption is nothing surprising. But that it could reach the level of attacking a truly powerful person like Trump does surprise me. POTUS or no, the guy has power, via money, connections and otherwise. That they can try and railroad him on shoddy, easily disprovable evidence should truly frighten everyone. Of course those who hate Trump won't be bothered, or many of them won't. And those who love him will see this as further proof that Trump is right about the "deep state swamp." The saddest part is the latter will actually have a point. If I, and my department at a local level are more diligent in this regard than the FBI then we're in much deeper trouble than I thought.
I had a get away weekend with my high school friends a few weekends ago. Most of us still live in Southern California, but several have moved away and we always meet up once a year to hang out. We were talking about the best concept albums of all time and a personal favorite is Operation Mindcrime by Queensryche. There's a line in one of the opening songs (Revolution Calling) about the pro/antagonist's disillusionment with American society and the lyric is, "who do you trust when everyone's a crook?" I mentioned how that actually felt real to me now, when it was an unthinkable position not that long ago. Sad times indeed.
Great album btw, if you've never heard it. Most people know Queensryche from the awful Empire album, but Mindcrime is a phenomenal album IMO. Give it a listen if you're of the mind to do so.
What I found interesting is that he recommended no changes in how the FBI does business. That just seems odd considering his conclusion is the investigations should have never happened in the first place. He spent an awful long time and spent a whole lot of money coming up with a conclusion that he apparently has had for some time. The IG’s report seems on face value more substantive
(05-15-2023, 11:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have to admit, the older I get the less confidence I have in institutions. Knowing the history of the FBI under Hoover it being capable of corruption is nothing surprising. But that it could reach the level of attacking a truly powerful person like Trump does surprise me. POTUS or no, the guy has power, via money, connections and otherwise. That they can try and railroad him on shoddy, easily disprovable evidence should truly frighten everyone. Of course those who hate Trump won't be bothered, or many of them won't. And those who love him will see this as further proof that Trump is right about the "deep state swamp." The saddest part is the latter will actually have a point. If I, and my department at a local level are more diligent in this regard than the FBI then we're in much deeper trouble than I thought.
I had a get away weekend with my high school friends a few weekends ago. Most of us still live in Southern California, but several have moved away and we always meet up once a year to hang out. We were talking about the best concept albums of all time and a personal favorite is Operation Mindcrime by Queensryche. There's a line in one of the opening songs (Revolution Calling) about the pro/antagonist's disillusionment with American society and the lyric is, "who do you trust when everyone's a crook?" I mentioned how that actually felt real to me now, when it was an unthinkable position not that long ago. Sad times indeed.
Great album btw, if you've never heard it. Most people know Queensryche from the awful Empire album, but Mindcrime is a phenomenal album IMO. Give it a listen if you're of the mind to do so.
I don't know, I still have confidence in institutions, I just don't have confidence in the people in them. It's no secret, I'm a Boy Scout, and I mean that in both a literal and figurative sense. Yeah, my language can get a little salty and I get a little impatient with idiotic statements from people, but everyone is a work in progress, right? Anyway, I say this because I have a very definable moral and ethical code. I do truly strive to live my life by the Scout Oath and Law, to be an example as an Eagle Scout and a registered volunteer in the movement not just to our youth, but to others in the community who know this is part of my identity. I had a custom Masonic ring made when I was raised that has the Eagle Scout medal superimposed on the S&C to always be a reminder when I look down as both organizations are aimed at making you a better person.
I say this all to point out where I come from in all of this. I am an institutionalist. I believe in the systems that are in place. The issue at hand is that those systems have not been updated to be bolstered against the continued efforts by people to test them in ways inconceivable to those that set them up. There are systems in place in our institutions to improve them, but they aren't being done.
But not just those government institutions are being tested, but the societal institutions have been abandoned. There are many jokes about Freemasons being this powerful shadow group. There are many reasons for these, but one is because in decades past you would have politicians on both sides of the aisle meet on the level on a lodge and relate to each other. Not just Freemasonry, but Moose, Elk, Rotary, Lions, Ruritans, etc. These groups were a place where politics was left at the door and people gathered to improve themselves and their communities. But we aren't seeing these groups operating as they once did and that disconnect between each other fosters this divisiveness. We don't have people relating to each other and thus these institutions are crumbling. This continues to drive a wedge between people as they lack the ability to connect with those they may disagree with and it foments this environment we see today in Washington.
/rant
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(05-16-2023, 08:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't know, I still have confidence in institutions, I just don't have confidence in the people in them. It's no secret, I'm a Boy Scout, and I mean that in both a literal and figurative sense. Yeah, my language can get a little salty and I get a little impatient with idiotic statements from people, but everyone is a work in progress, right? Anyway, I say this because I have a very definable moral and ethical code. I do truly strive to live my life by the Scout Oath and Law, to be an example as an Eagle Scout and a registered volunteer in the movement not just to our youth, but to others in the community who know this is part of my identity. I had a custom Masonic ring made when I was raised that has the Eagle Scout medal superimposed on the S&C to always be a reminder when I look down as both organizations are aimed at making you a better person.
I say this all to point out where I come from in all of this. I am an institutionalist. I believe in the systems that are in place. The issue at hand is that those systems have not been updated to be bolstered against the continued efforts by people to test them in ways inconceivable to those that set them up. There are systems in place in our institutions to improve them, but they aren't being done.
But not just those government institutions are being tested, but the societal institutions have been abandoned. There are many jokes about Freemasons being this powerful shadow group. There are many reasons for these, but one is because in decades past you would have politicians on both sides of the aisle meet on the level on a lodge and relate to each other. Not just Freemasonry, but Moose, Elk, Rotary, Lions, Ruritans, etc. These groups were a place where politics was left at the door and people gathered to improve themselves and their communities. But we aren't seeing these groups operating as they once did and that disconnect between each other fosters this divisiveness. We don't have people relating to each other and thus these institutions are crumbling. This continues to drive a wedge between people as they lack the ability to connect with those they may disagree with and it foments this environment we see today in Washington.
/rant
I'm a "systems" guy. You put them in to make everything run smoother but sometimes they need adjusted as your work changes.
I don't have total faith in the FBI, CIA, any large, powerful group really...but I'd rather believe more in them than that Russia is better than them. Because that is the take many on the right are posting today: The US is against Trump because he will "take them down" and Russia was clean and should be an ally.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
One key take aways the FBI and DOJ were compromised against Trump. This should bother anyone that our DOJ and FBI are now political.
There is another big take away in the report to resolve the Trump colluded with Russian lie.
DURHAM CONFIRMED , TRUMP AND HIS TEAM DID NOT COLLUDE WITH RUSSIA AND THE FBI AND DOJ HANDLED HILLARY CLINTON INVESTIAGATION WITH PARTIALITY IN HER FAVOR.
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
(05-16-2023, 08:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't know, I still have confidence in institutions, I just don't have confidence in the people in them. It's no secret, I'm a Boy Scout, and I mean that in both a literal and figurative sense. Yeah, my language can get a little salty and I get a little impatient with idiotic statements from people, but everyone is a work in progress, right? Anyway, I say this because I have a very definable moral and ethical code. I do truly strive to live my life by the Scout Oath and Law, to be an example as an Eagle Scout and a registered volunteer in the movement not just to our youth, but to others in the community who know this is part of my identity. I had a custom Masonic ring made when I was raised that has the Eagle Scout medal superimposed on the S&C to always be a reminder when I look down as both organizations are aimed at making you a better person.
I say this all to point out where I come from in all of this. I am an institutionalist. I believe in the systems that are in place. The issue at hand is that those systems have not been updated to be bolstered against the continued efforts by people to test them in ways inconceivable to those that set them up. There are systems in place in our institutions to improve them, but they aren't being done.
But not just those government institutions are being tested, but the societal institutions have been abandoned. There are many jokes about Freemasons being this powerful shadow group. There are many reasons for these, but one is because in decades past you would have politicians on both sides of the aisle meet on the level on a lodge and relate to each other. Not just Freemasonry, but Moose, Elk, Rotary, Lions, Ruritans, etc. These groups were a place where politics was left at the door and people gathered to improve themselves and their communities. But we aren't seeing these groups operating as they once did and that disconnect between each other fosters this divisiveness. We don't have people relating to each other and thus these institutions are crumbling. This continues to drive a wedge between people as they lack the ability to connect with those they may disagree with and it foments this environment we see today in Washington.
/rant
The problem is the systems are populated by people. I can tell you first hand that a good system can be thoroughly corrupted in short order by a few well placed people with that intention. I've watched it happen over the past three years and the results are sickening. Fixing it requires, first off acknowledging it, and secondly the political will to do something, which is largely lacking in today's world. I fear we are reaching a precipice from which we will either snap back, hard, and overcorrect, or fall off it entirely.
One key take aways the FBI and DOJ were compromised against Trump. This should bother anyone that our DOJ and FBI are now political.
There is another big take away in the report to resolve the Trump colluded with Russian lie.
DURHAM CONFIRMED , TRUMP AND HIS TEAM DID NOT COLLUDE WITH RUSSIA AND THE FBI AND DOJ HANDLED HILLARY CLINTON INVESTIAGATION WITH PARTIALITY IN HER FAVOR.
I mean, we don't need a one-sided opinion piece when there is a news article and a link to the actual document in my post. People can think for themselves.
As for your statements, well, our federal law enforcement agencies have always been political. That's the nature of government. As for partisanship in particular, law enforcement has always attracted more Republicans and we see that in their donations. What we see here if this was a case of political biases is one where establishment Republicans were not happy with Trump. Much like SSF and I have been going back and forth about, they were likely institutional types. That's not uncommon for feds. The problem is that power corrupts, and even institutionalists in positions of power will be tempted by that corruption.
In addition, Durham confirmed no such thing in regards to the collusion claims. He did not investigate that and there is no such claim in the report. The report does denote that the multiple investigations opened into foreign interference in the Clinton campaign were done so with different fervor, but even Durham states in the report that the comparison is imperfect because of the differences in the situations.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(05-16-2023, 10:38 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Did you miss me? I had triple bypass surgery last Wednesday.
Yikes. I had a double bypass and a valve replacement 2years ago yesterday. My hopes and prayers will be with you for a quick recovery. Do everything they tell you and you should do fine.
Quote:One key take aways the FBI and DOJ were compromised against Trump. This should bother anyone that our DOJ and FBI are now political.
This is troublesome. Right now, the left doesn't complain because it works in their favor. Same thing with the media. There's only 1 reason you need these tools at your disposal, and that's if you have a lot of deception to hide.
Quote:There is another big take away in the report to resolve the Trump colluded with Russian lie.
DURHAM CONFIRMED , TRUMP AND HIS TEAM DID NOT COLLUDE WITH RUSSIA AND THE FBI AND DOJ HANDLED HILLARY CLINTON INVESTIAGATION WITH PARTIALITY IN HER FAVOR.
I think this will be bigger than many believe. Many voted against Trump because of this lie. Trump is going to pick up more support and voters on the left are going to lose trust in their party of lies.
(05-16-2023, 12:17 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Yikes. I had a double bypass and a valve replacement 2years ago yesterday. My hopes and prayers will be with you for a quick recovery. Do everything they tell you and you should do fine.
This is troublesome. Right now, the left doesn't complain because it works in their favor. Same thing with the media. There's only 1 reason you need these tools at your disposal, and that's if you have a lot of deception to hide.
I think this will be bigger than many believe. Many voted against Trump because of this lie. Trump is going to pick up more support and voters on the left are going to lose trust in their party of lies.
I seriously doubt this report which contradicts both the IG's report and Mueller's report will suddenly convince people to support Trump. Trump has more than enough baggage that isn't going away with a report from a partisan political appointee
(05-16-2023, 01:06 PM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: The Hill and CNN aren't exactly right leaning sources....
And? The only difference between what I said and they said was that they were more "the sky is falling" about it and they said Durham found no collusion, which isn't something Durham investigated or wrote about. Durham said that the FBI did not have enough to go on to open a full investigation on the Trump campaign at the time. He does not make conclusions about the overall collusion claims because he did not investigate those. That wasn't in his scope.
I always enjoy people that rail against MSM who hold it up as evidence when it confirms their biases. I like to read the source documents instead of relying on others to tell me what is in there.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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