John McCain

[Belsnickel]

I'm sure everyone here has already heard about his passing. He was a politician that frustrated me to no end, but I liked him. He tried to stick to his principles more than any other in Congress that I know of. And while he faltered, he was honest about his failings. He didn't try to dismiss it when questioned about him making a decision that seemed counter to his beliefs. He either gave a sincere reason or, in some cases, admitted that it was the wrong decision.

I didn't agree with him on a lot of policies, but I admired him. He represented what Congress used to be like, and now that he will no longer walk those halls there will be something missing from the Senate floor.

[hollodero]

I always considered him to be a bit of a warmongerer... he wasn't too popular here. Nevertheless, I always felt big respect for McCain that I seldom feel for any politician, let alone one I do not agree with most of the time. He seemed very principled, genuine, and sure his life story is one to admire.

Unforgettable to me when he corrected the record of a fan of his that accused Obama of being a coveted muslim and unamerican. These times, where politicians actually acted that way, seem so far gone. I'm sure he's missed for many things, I mostly will miss the voice of a sincere, decent conservative that stood out from Trumpism.

[GMDino]

(08-27-2018, 09:47 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm sure everyone here has already heard about his passing. He was a politician that frustrated me to no end, but I liked him. He tried to stick to his principles more than any other in Congress that I know of. And while he faltered, he was honest about his failings. He didn't try to dismiss it when questioned about him making a decision that seemed counter to his beliefs. He either gave a sincere reason or, in some cases, admitted that it was the wrong decision.

I didn't agree with him on a lot of policies, but I admired him. He represented what Congress used to be like, and now that he will no longer walk those halls there will be something missing from the Senate floor.

Sums up my feelings.

I wish he hadn't been torpedoed in 2000 and was POTUS when 9/11 happened.  Or maybe it doesn't happen.

He's a tie to a different time.  In the US and in politics.

[Benton]

It's rare to talk about politicians sincerity these days, but that's what always springs to mind with McCain.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-27-2018, 10:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Sums up my feelings.

I wish he hadn't been torpedoed in 2000 and was POTUS when 9/11 happened.  Or maybe it doesn't happen.

He's a tie to a different time.  In the US and in politics.

A rare moment of complete consensus.  The world we currently live in would look much different, IMO much better, if McCain hadn't been slandered by Karl Rove and was elected POTUS.  Even if 9/11 still happened our response would have been confined to Afghanistan and I'm confident we'd have snagged Bin laden much sooner.  It was borderline heartbreaking seeing what McCain became in '08 in an attempt to win the office.

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2018, 10:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Sums up my feelings.

I wish he hadn't been torpedoed in 2000 and was POTUS when 9/11 happened.  Or maybe it doesn't happen.

He's a tie to a different time.  In the US and in politics.

(08-27-2018, 10:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A rare moment of complete consensus.  The world we currently live in would look much different, IMO much better, if McCain hadn't been slandered by Karl Rove and was elected POTUS.  Even if 9/11 still happened our response would have been confined to Afghanistan and I'm confident we'd have snagged Bin laden much sooner.  It was borderline heartbreaking seeing what McCain became in '08 in an attempt to win the office.

This is all an interesting conversation to me because the 2000 election was one where I was paying zero attention. I was 15 that year and more concerned about other things. So the Clinton years and the election of 2000 are things I don't know much about. Discussions like these cause me to look into it and it's always enlightening for me.

[Benton]

(08-27-2018, 10:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A rare moment of complete consensus.  The world we currently live in would look much different, IMO much better, if McCain hadn't been slandered by Karl Rove and was elected POTUS.  Even if 9/11 still happened our response would have been confined to Afghanistan and I'm confident we'd have snagged Bin laden much sooner.  It was borderline heartbreaking seeing what McCain became in '08 in an attempt to win the office.

Agreed.

I think his personal experience, attitude and his family history wouldn't have had us taking the course we did. I think McCain would have had a smaller, more effective military footprint instead of trying to grab smoke throughout the entire ME. But who knows for sure.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-27-2018, 11:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is all an interesting conversation to me because the 2000 election was one where I was paying zero attention. I was 15 that year and more concerned about other things. So the Clinton years and the election of 2000 are things I don't know much about. Discussions like these cause me to look into it and it's always enlightening for me.

McCain was running a great campaign, one that wasn't beholden to any of your traditional GOP power centers such as the religious right.  W was foundering and Karl Rove ran an add in one of the Carolina's (South iirc) accusing McCain of having an illegitimate black child.  The child in question is his adopted Indian daughter.  The damage was done, he lost that primary to W handily and W grabbed the momentum and never looked back.  

That's why I have such disdain for Rove and W.  The amount of borderline fond recollection of W by many celebrities nauseates me.  The man did more damage to our country than any other president by leaps and bounds.  I suppose his "Aww shucks" demeanor is more palatable to some.

[Benton]

(08-27-2018, 11:22 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: McCain was running a great campaign, one that wasn't beholden to any of your traditional GOP power centers such as the religious right.  W was foundering and Karl Rove ran an add in one of the Carolina's (South iirc) accusing McCain of having an illegitimate black child.  The child in question is his adopted Indian daughter.  The damage was done, he lost that primary to W handily and W grabbed the momentum and never looked back.  

That's why I have such disdain for Rove and W.  The amount of borderline fond recollection of W by many celebrities nauseates me.  The man did more damage to our country than any other president by leaps and bounds.  I suppose his "Aww shucks" demeanor is more palatable to some.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2004/11/mccain200411

It's interesting some of the parallels from that race with the Bernie/Clinton race. Republicans were jumping up and down over 'Russia is meddling less than the DNC!' but I don't guess they were paying attention back more than a decade ago when Republicans were doing far worse to Republicans.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2018, 10:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A rare moment of complete consensus.  The world we currently live in would look much different, IMO much better, if McCain hadn't been slandered by Karl Rove and was elected POTUS.  Even if 9/11 still happened our response would have been confined to Afghanistan and I'm confident we'd have snagged Bin laden much sooner.  It was borderline heartbreaking seeing what McCain became in '08 in an attempt to win the office.

Talk about a rare moment.  I am giving SSF rep for this post.

In 2000 McCain was a "maverick" who upset the Republican establishment by not following everything they proposed lock step.  He was not afraid to reach across the aisle to get what he wanted done.

In 2008 he was a lap dog for the establishment.

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2018, 10:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It was borderline heartbreaking seeing what McCain became in '08 in an attempt to win the office.

Agreed, and add in that he got hell for not lying and running with the narrative that his opponent was dangerous and everything people didn't want him to be.  I was dating a hardcore republican at that time and I remember her and her family saying that McCain totally blew it by not saying Obama is a dangerous Muslim.  I had a feeling the party would take note and not make that "mistake" again.  

[*michaelsean*]

(08-27-2018, 12:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Agreed, and add in that he got hell for not lying and running with the narrative that his opponent was dangerous and everything people didn't want him to be.  I was dating a hardcore republican at that time and I remember her and her family saying that McCain totally blew it by not saying Obama is a dangerous Muslim.  I had a feeling the party would take note and not make that "mistake" again.  

Did Romney call him a dangerous Muslim?

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2018, 12:28 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Did Romney call him a dangerous Muslim?

Probably not, the loser.  But all jokes aside, there was certainly a critical point to play up the danger that is Obama and McCain missed it.  I recall the news cycles running with Obama being a Muslim who had dangerous connections to a Christian nutbag and he had a close connection with a noted domestic terrorist in Robert Ayers. McCain just let that stuff go. Oh well.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Nothing against McCain personally, but this whole case makes me want to bring up a pretty important point that I think should have been discussed more.

A person with brain cancer was allowed to continue to help lead our country and make decisions until the point where they died of said brain cancer.

McCain gave amazing service to this country, but I can't believe anyone with brain cancer was allowed to stay in office/power.

[Benton]

(08-27-2018, 01:05 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nothing against McCain personally, but this whole case makes me want to bring up a pretty important point that I think should have been discussed more.

A person with brain cancer was allowed to continue to help lead our country and make decisions until the point where they died of said brain cancer.

McCain gave amazing service to this country, but I can't believe anyone with brain cancer was allowed to stay in office/power.

Congress could've moved to expel him, but — as far as I know — that's only been done a couple times when members were in legal trouble/Civil War. It's kind of a weird area since Congress would be the one who would need to make that call, but none of them are going to risk losing their seat just because someone else votes them unfit.

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2018, 01:05 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nothing against McCain personally, but this whole case makes me want to bring up a pretty important point that I think should have been discussed more.

A person with brain cancer was allowed to continue to help lead our country and make decisions until the point where they died of said brain cancer.

McCain gave amazing service to this country, but I can't believe anyone with brain cancer was allowed to stay in office/power.

I'm no neurologist, but my ol' man had cancerous brain tumors off and on from 2003 until he died in 2012 and it was completely asymptomatic other than losing sight in his left eye. That is until the last 6 months where his motor function and his physical body rapidly deteriorated.  It wasn't until the last month or so that he lost his mental grip on things, and he really lost it once he did.

I'm also no politician, but I think if McCain would have been acting in a manner which indicated he lost his grip on reality from the cancer (and not from, you know, various political beliefs that make people act crazy) he would have retired.

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2018, 01:11 PM)Benton Wrote: Congress could've moved to expel him, but — as far as I know — that's only been done a couple times when members were in legal trouble/Civil War. It's kind of a weird area since Congress would be the one who would need to make that call, but none of them are going to risk losing their seat just because someone else votes them unfit.

I think the hesitance is also rooted in the fear that it will become a political thing. Removal from office is not supposed to be political. It's one of the reasons I'm against impeachment talk right now. The reason people talk impeachment this early, though, is because it became a political thing with Clinton. There is a fear among elected officials that it would become that way for them, as well.

[jj22]

God Bless the McCain family.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-27-2018, 01:11 PM)Benton Wrote: Congress could've moved to expel him, but — as far as I know — that's only been done a couple times when members were in legal trouble/Civil War. It's kind of a weird area since Congress would be the one who would need to make that call, but none of them are going to risk losing their seat just because someone else votes them unfit.

I feel like even if you only had to have like a very small list of health reasons that would automatically force you to resign, you'd think brain cancer and stroke probably have to be 1a and 1b. Maybe followed up by untreated syphilis or psychotic break.

I mean he wasn't just a Senator, but he was also the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which has oversight on "the nation's military, including the Department of Defense, military research and development, and nuclear energy (as pertaining to national security),"

I'm not saying McCain was completely out of his mind, but he had some rough patches. (The Comey questioning.) I feel like there's some things that you really want to be 100% on people's brains working properly, and that's not really possible when they have brain cancer.

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2018, 01:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I feel like even if you only had to have like a very small list of health reasons that would automatically force you to resign, you'd think brain cancer and stroke probably have to be 1a and 1b. Maybe followed up by untreated syphilis or psychotic break.

I mean he wasn't just a Senator, but he was also the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which has oversight on "the nation's military, including the Department of Defense, military research and development, and nuclear energy (as pertaining to national security),"

I'm not saying McCain was completely out of his mind, but he had some rough patches. (The Comey questioning.) I feel like there's some things that you really want to be 100% on people's brains working properly, and that's not really possible when they have brain cancer.

The problem there is that different people have different responses to these things. I have known people with brain tumors that only had headaches and no other signs/symptoms. Drawing those hard lines is difficult and could very easily be seen as undemocratic, subverting the will of the voters.