John McCain

[BmorePat87]

A good man who got some awful criticism only because he was Obama's opponent.

He made his fair share of political mistakes, but he always acted in our nation's best interest. He was truly dedicated to service.

[Millhouse]

Overall I believe McCain was a good man and a great American.

There are things such as him being part of the "Keating Five" scandal as it became known, and his pro-hawk stances on Iraq in which he later regretted, will be stains on his political career, especially the Keating deal. I think if anything like that happened today, I dont see how a Senator can survive it with social media and the internet. But because it happened in the late 1980s, it was much easier for people to forget and not dig into like they can today.

I hope that if there is anything positive with his passing, it will be to show and remind the avid Trump supporters that have overtaken the Republican Party that their leader is a fraud when it comes to veterans and former POWs. He never did apologize for his comments about McCain being captured which in essence was a comment towards all serviceman and women that have been captured by the enemy from the Germans, Japanese, North Koreans, Italians, Confederates, Taliban, Iraqis, etc. I dont know, but how can anyone be pro-Trump yet very pro-American military too at the same time. Enough about him though.

We may never see someone like McCain again, and even with a few blackeyes over the years, he was always in favor of the people over all else.

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2018, 02:07 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Overall I believe McCain was a good man and a great American.

There are things such as him being part of the "Keating Five" scandal as it became known, and his pro-hawk stances on Iraq in which he later regretted, will be stains on his political career, especially the Keating deal. I think if anything like that happened today, I dont see how a Senator can survive it with social media and the internet. But because it happened in the late 1980s, it was much easier for people to forget and not dig into like they can today.

I hope that if there is anything positive with his passing, it will be to show and remind the avid Trump supporters that have overtaken the Republican Party that their leader is a fraud when it comes to veterans and former POWs. He never did apologize for his comments about McCain being captured which in essence was a comment towards all serviceman and women that have been captured by the enemy from the Germans, Japanese, North Koreans, Italians, Confederates, Taliban, Iraqis,  etc. I dont know, but how can anyone be pro-Trump yet very pro-American military too at the same time. Enough about him though.

We may never see someone like McCain again, and even with a few blackeyes over the years, he was always in favor of the people over all else.

The guy certainly did get railroaded by two republicans who put winning over all else, that's for sure.

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2018, 02:07 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Overall I believe McCain was a good man and a great American.

There are things such as him being part of the "Keating Five" scandal as it became known, and his pro-hawk stances on Iraq in which he later regretted, will be stains on his political career, especially the Keating deal. I think if anything like that happened today, I dont see how a Senator can survive it with social media and the internet. But because it happened in the late 1980s, it was much easier for people to forget and not dig into like they can today.

I think you underestimate the tolerance of the American people for the type of scandal that was the Keating situation. Even in the age of social media, that sort of thing happens all the time and the majority don't seem to care.

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2018, 02:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think you underestimate the tolerance of the American people for the type of scandal that was the Keating situation. Even in the age of social media, that sort of thing happens all the time and the majority don't seem to care.

Are you telling me the sentence "The other side does it, too!" was uttered before 2016?!

[Millhouse]

(08-27-2018, 02:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think you underestimate the tolerance of the American people for the type of scandal that was the Keating situation. Even in the age of social media, that sort of thing happens all the time and the majority don't seem to care.

Probably right about the tolerance of people. Though I dont know of anything like the Keating scandal has happened. I mean, I know it has happened and very likely happened with the banks committing fraud that lead to the housing market crash in 2007 resulting in a light slap on the wrist with no arrests and bailouts. But not to the point of an actual investigation with Senators named in basically being bribed to help them to get off the hook.

However McCain did say that was his greatest mistake, repaid back all the trips by Keating out of his pocket, and began politicking against lobbyist money from then on.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-27-2018, 01:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The problem there is that different people have different responses to these things. I have known people with brain tumors that only had headaches and no other signs/symptoms. Drawing those hard lines is difficult and could very easily be seen as undemocratic, subverting the will of the voters.

I'd rather kick everyone with brain cancer into retirement than allow someone with potentially mind-effecting brain cancer be in charge of important decisions that could potentially have enormous impacts on our country. (Also, how many of those people that you knew who only had headaches were 81 years old?)

I know if I voted for someone and they turned out to have brain cancer, I would not vote for them again if some special re-election was held. There's just some things that are too important to allow that risk.

We wouldn't allow an Astronaut with brain cancer, so why would we allow someone to make decisions for our nuclear power with brain cancer?


- - - - - - -

Follow-up connected point, along with term limits, we also need an age cap. We all recognize that we need people's brains to develop enough to votes (18), be a Representative (25), be a Senator (30), be the President (35). So we know that a sharp brain is important to be a leader for this country, yet we have 6 (was 7) Senators and 10 Representatives age 80 or older.

I don't know if the cutoff should be 80, or 75, or what, but there needs to be one.

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2018, 02:38 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Probably right about the tolerance of people. Though I dont know of anything like the Keating scandal has happened. I mean, I know it has happened and very likely happened with the banks committing fraud that lead to the housing market crash in 2007 resulting in a light slap on the wrist with no arrests and bailouts. But not to the point of an actual investigation with Senators named in basically being bribed to help them to get off the hook.

However McCain did say that was his greatest mistake, repaid back all the trips by Keating out of his pocket, and began politicking against lobbyist money from then on.

There haven't been investigations into it because everyone is doing it and they are more careful about covering their tracks. Keating level corruption is going on regularly. It's why elected officials pass policies that favor their donors rather than the public that elects them. You can look at voting records of them and see this in the data. The big money donors are treated more favorably by elected officials in both parties because they are buying that loyalty through donations and lobbying.

[jj22]

I hope people are paying attention to how disgraceful the WH is treating McCain and his legacy today. A fallen Vet. Think about these things why you claim Trump is pro Vets, and you allow him to dictate what's patriotic of not. Kneeling is far less insulting then the way Trump and this WH is handling this VET. Good thing is Vets are speaking out against this treatment this morning. Unfortunately you have supposedly Pro Vet Trump supporters attacking them for it. We are living in some historic times.

[GMDino]

(08-27-2018, 03:04 PM)jj22 Wrote: I hope people are paying attention to how disgraceful the WH is treating McCain and his legacy today. A fallen Vet. Think about these things why you claim Trump is pro Vets, and you allow him to dictate what's patriotic of not. Kneeling is far less insulting then the way Trump and this WH is handling this VET. Good thing is Vets are speaking out against this treatment this morning. Unfortunately you have supposedly Pro Vet Trump supporters attacking them for it. We are living in some historic times.

I really think Trump's petty response to McCain's passing deserved it's own thread since this one has been very respectful from all sides.

But....

In the Oval Office just now I asked @realDonaldTrump if he had any thoughts on the legacy on John McCain. He heard me but did not answer. pic.twitter.com/reVwoJCMzV

— Jonathan Karl (@jonkarl) August 27, 2018

Video at the link.

To tie into the thread too:  While I may have disagreed with McCain on several policy fronts he seemed like a decent man.  Maybe that's why Trump will never get the same respect.

[Dill]

(08-27-2018, 10:10 AM)hollodero Wrote: I always considered him to be a bit of a warmongerer... he wasn't too popular here. Nevertheless, I always felt big respect for McCain that I seldom feel for any politician, let alone one I do not agree with most of the time. He seemed very principled, genuine, and sure his life story is one to admire.

Unforgettable to me when he corrected the record of a fan of his that accused Obama of being a coveted muslim and unamerican. These times, where politicians actually acted that way, seem so far gone. I'm sure he's missed for many things, I mostly will miss the voice of a sincere, decent conservative that stood out from Trumpism.

He was a warmonger, but a good one.

And yes, as the example of anti-Obama fan proves, he put principle before party and winning.

Can't say the same for his buddy, Lindsey Graham.

Young folks may not remember the 2000 primary when he battled Bush and the unscrupulous Karl Rove. He wouldn't use push polls, separating himself from the future direction of his party.

[Benton]

(08-27-2018, 01:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I feel like even if you only had to have like a very small list of health reasons that would automatically force you to resign, you'd think brain cancer and stroke probably have to be 1a and 1b. Maybe followed up by untreated syphilis or psychotic break.

I mean he wasn't just a Senator, but he was also the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which has oversight on "the nation's military, including the Department of Defense, military research and development, and nuclear energy (as pertaining to national security),"

I'm not saying McCain was completely out of his mind, but he had some rough patches. (The Comey questioning.) I feel like there's some things that you really want to be 100% on people's brains working properly, and that's not really possible when they have brain cancer.

As Matt said, some people with a brain tumor have little to no mental impairment. Whereas, someone with simple blood sugar issues could be far far away from having their brain working properly.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but, as with the legal system, there's always going to be a degree of human error because we're humans*.












* For now. 

[Dill]

(08-27-2018, 01:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I feel like even if you only had to have like a very small list of health reasons that would automatically force you to resign, you'd think brain cancer and stroke probably have to be 1a and 1b. Maybe followed up by untreated syphilis or psychotic break.

I mean he wasn't just a Senator, but he was also the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which has oversight on "the nation's military, including the Department of Defense, military research and development, and nuclear energy (as pertaining to national security),"

I'm not saying McCain was completely out of his mind, but he had some rough patches. (The Comey questioning.) I feel like there's some things that you really want to be 100% on people's brains working properly, and that's not really possible when they have brain cancer.

I'll take McCain with brain cancer over any candidate with no experience of government or the military and suffering from malignant narcissm.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-27-2018, 04:41 PM)Benton Wrote: As Matt said, some people with a brain tumor have little to no mental impairment. Whereas, someone with simple blood sugar issues could be far far away from having their brain working properly.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but, as with the legal system, there's always going to be a degree of human error because we're humans*.



* For now. 

I guess the other bit I failed/forgot to touch upon but meant to was direct side effects from the brain cancer aside, how much does knowing you are dying change a person's personality? I'm not saying McCain did, but I am just saying that when you're told "hey, you're dying, you have like 3-6 months to live" or whatever, not all people act rationally/normally. Or like themselves prior to knowing.

But yeah, I am not expecting too much as far as actual good solution goes. At least until we all submit to our Skynet Overlord, or get plugged into the Matrix or whatnot. Then our troubles are gone. Lol

[Vas Deferens]

(08-27-2018, 11:22 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: McCain was running a great campaign, one that wasn't beholden to any of your traditional GOP power centers such as the religious right.  W was foundering and Karl Rove ran an add in one of the Carolina's (South iirc) accusing McCain of having an illegitimate black child.  The child in question is his adopted Indian daughter.  The damage was done, he lost that primary to W handily and W grabbed the momentum and never looked back.  

That's why I have such disdain for Rove and W.  The amount of borderline fond recollection of W by many celebrities nauseates me.  The man did more damage to our country than any other president by leaps and bounds.  I suppose his "Aww shucks" demeanor is more palatable to some.

Spot on SSF.  9/11, iraq, etc aside, had he been given the opportunity to push through broader campaign finance reform from the oval office.  I suspect politics would be far less derisive and our republic far more democratic.

(08-27-2018, 02:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Follow-up connected point, along with term limits, we also need an age cap. We all recognize that we need people's brains to develop enough to votes (18), be a Representative (25), be a Senator (30), be the President (35). So we know that a sharp brain is important to be a leader for this country, yet we have 6 (was 7) Senators and 10 Representatives age 80 or older.

I don't know if the cutoff should be 80, or 75, or what, but there needs to be one.

Agree.  Mental capacity aside, it seems inefficient to have decisions being made by individuals who will not live with their consequences.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-27-2018, 05:28 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Agree.  Mental capacity aside, it seems inefficient to have decisions being made by individuals who will not live with their consequences.  

Not to mention be individuals who actually understand what's going on.

87-year-old Representative Sam Johnson was part of that whole "support for overturning net neutrality" faction. If we took a poll on how many people actually believed he could explain what net neutrality was and what overturning it would do, do we really expect the number who believe to be higher than 20%?

I mean, my Dad still calls texts "emails".

[ballsofsteel]

Trump said his thoughts and prayers are with the McCain family. You think Trump prays?

[BmorePat87]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/read-full-text-sen-john-mccain-s-final-words-nation-n904176?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

Quote:My fellow Americans, whom I have gratefully served for sixty years, and especially my fellow Arizonans,

Thank you for the privilege of serving you and for the rewarding life that service in uniform and in public office has allowed me to lead. I have tried to serve our country honorably. I have made mistakes, but I hope my love for America will be weighed favorably against them.

I have often observed that I am the luckiest person on earth. I feel that way even now as I prepare for the end of my life. I have loved my life, all of it. I have had experiences, adventures and friendships enough for ten satisfying lives, and I am so thankful. Like most people, I have regrets. But I would not trade a day of my life, in good or bad times, for the best day of anyone else’s.

I owe that satisfaction to the love of my family. No man ever had a more loving wife or children he was prouder of than I am of mine. And I owe it to America. To be connected to America’s causes — liberty, equal justice, respect for the dignity of all people — brings happiness more sublime than life’s fleeting pleasures. Our identities and sense of worth are not circumscribed but enlarged by serving good causes bigger than ourselves.

'Fellow Americans' — that association has meant more to me than any other. I lived and died a proud American. We are citizens of the world’s greatest republic, a nation of ideals, not blood and soil. We are blessed and are a blessing to humanity when we uphold and advance those ideals at home and in the world. We have helped liberate more people from tyranny and poverty than ever before in history. We have acquired great wealth and power in the process.

We weaken our greatness when we confuse our patriotism with tribal rivalries that have sown resentment and hatred and violence in all the corners of the globe. We weaken it when we hide behind walls, rather than tear them down, when we doubt the power of our ideals, rather than trust them to be the great force for change they have always been.

We are three-hundred-and-twenty-five million opinionated, vociferous individuals. We argue and compete and sometimes even vilify each other in our raucous public debates. But we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement. If only we remember that and give each other the benefit of the presumption that we all love our country we will get through these challenging times. We will come through them stronger than before. We always do.

Ten years ago, I had the privilege to concede defeat in the election for president. I want to end my farewell to you with the heartfelt faith in Americans that I felt so powerfully that evening.

I feel it powerfully still.

Do not despair of our present difficulties but believe always in the promise and greatness of America, because nothing is inevitable here. Americans never quit. We never surrender. We never hide from history. We make history.

Farewell, fellow Americans. God bless you, and God bless America.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-27-2018, 06:36 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/read-full-text-sen-john-mccain-s-final-words-nation-n904176?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

Pretty well said. I hope people don’t get too upset that he bragged about us a bit. I like the part where he basically said we are Americans and in the end we will be ok. Politicians are transient.

[Vlad]

Sadly, McCain became the poster child for the Trump hating establishment RINO's. He couldn't stand that a non-politician outsider busted down the door to his club. His disdain for Trump was glaring.


He goes to Germany and bashes Trump.
McCain was the one responsible for handing over that fake Trump dossier to the FBI...claiming to do "what any (Trump hating) American citizen would do".
 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11781169

He reneged on his promise to vote for the repeal of Obamacare just to spite Trump. He was the deciding vote...bet that made him feel extra good.

His last and final act as it relates to Trump... according to his family.... was to request Trump not attend his funeral.

That says it all right there.