Judge who sold juveniles to jails gets 28 yrs

[Devils Advocate]

Link to the Stink

Quote:Between 2003 and 2008, the Pennsylvania state Supreme Court tossed 4,000 convictions issued by Ciavarella because the judge violated the constitutional rights of the kids. These violations included denying the right to legal counsel and the right to intelligently enter a plea. Disgustingly, his attorneys said that all the media attention on Ciavarella was a good enough punishment.

More Stink

Quote:States sign agreements with private prisons to guarantee that they will fill a certain number of beds in jail at any given point. The most common rate is 90%, though some prisons are able to snag a 100% promise from their local governments. Because of these contracts, the state is obligated to keep prisons almost full at all times or pay for the beds anyway, so the incentive is to incarcerate more people and for longer in order to fill the quota.

[GMDino]

(09-04-2015, 09:59 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Link to the Stink




More Stink

But...but...privatization!!!!

Why do you hate capitalism?!?!?!

[jakefromstatefarm]

I don't see any reason at all to advocate for privatization of jails. I just don't see how anyone could be surprised that it would lead to corruption, more people being jailed and for longer periods of time.

Perhaps if local governments could get their fiscal houses in order, there would be less incentive for them to privatize things like this in order for them to balance their budgets.

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2015, 10:26 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I don't see any reason at all to advocate for privatization of jails. 

I thought you were in favor of smaller government and less government waste?

People like you are the ones who make privatized prisons more popular.  You claim that government is incompetent and a private business model would be much more efficient.  That would then save the taxpayers money.

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2015, 10:26 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote:  I just don't see how anyone could be surprised that it would lead to corruption

Because private businesses are more likely to be corrupt than the government?

I think you are finally starting to see the light.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 10:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I thought you were in favor of smaller government and less government waste?

People like you are the ones who make privatized prisons more popular.  You claim that government is incompetent and a private business model would be much more efficient.  That would then save the taxpayers money.

Why do you have to be so intellectually dishonest?

In most cases, yes, I am for a free market.  That's not absolute, as very little is. 

This is obviously a different situation.  Privatizing jails would obviously offer incentive for more people to be jailed and for longer periods of time. 

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2015, 10:39 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: This is obviously a different situation.  Privatizing jails would obviously offer incentive for more people to be jailed and for longer periods of time. 

That is why the private jail does not get to determine who goes to jail or for how long.

So basically you are saying that introducing a profit motive makes corruption and rule breaking more likely.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-04-2015, 10:31 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Because private businesses are more likely to be corrupt than the government?

I think you are finally starting to see the light.

What entity did the judge work for?  

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 10:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is why the private jail does not get to determine who goes to jail or for how long.

So basically you are saying that introducing a profit motive makes corruption and rule breaking more likely.

If you'd read the OP, you'll see that the private business had a contract with the government to guarantee a certain number of beds would be occupied or the government would have to pay the difference. 

Yes, that will obviously give the county or state more incentive to make sure that there are a minimum number of people incarcerated. 

So in this case, the GOVERNMENT is every bit as much responsible for the corruption as the PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Nice try.  

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-04-2015, 10:49 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: If you'd read the OP, you'll see that the private business had a contract with the government to guarantee a certain number of beds would be occupied or the government would have to pay the difference. 

Yes, that will obviously give the county or state more incentive to make sure that there are a minimum number of people incarcerated. 

So in this case, the GOVERNMENT is every bit as much responsible for the corruption as the PRIVATE BUSINESS.

Nice try.  

I still don't see what the value is to the government agency whether they fill the beds or not.  Either way they pay the same amount of money.  Seems to me there were other monitary gains being had.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 10:52 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I still don't see what the value is to the government agency whether they fill the beds or not.  Either way they pay the same amount of money.  Seems to me there were other monitary gains being had.

Without knowing the details, I would guess it had to do with both feeding the prisoners and the cost of labor associated with guards. 

There were probably details involved in the contract that the county would pay the business so much per meal per prisoner, so obviously less prisoners = less revenue. 

[GMDino]

(09-04-2015, 10:48 AM)michaelsean Wrote: What entity did the judge work for?  

Apparently for the private jail he was taking bribes from.

That's not an indictment of the government or the electoral process....that's on the man and the private business who decided paying him off would be best.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 10:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: Apparently for the private jail he was taking bribes from.

That's not an indictment of the government or the electoral process....that's on the man and the private business who decided paying him off would be best.

Yeah, because he'd be the first government official that has ever taken a bribe. 

Now that he's caught, government can now return to being that incorruptible entity we always believed it would be. 

:heart:

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-04-2015, 10:55 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Without knowing the details, I would guess it had to do with both feeding the prisoners and the cost of labor associated with guards. 

There were probably details involved in the contract that the county would pay the business so much per meal per prisoner, so obviously less prisoners = less revenue. 

So the food and guards are not a part of the "bed" cost?

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 10:59 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: So the food and guards are not a part of the "bed" cost?

I don't know for sure.  It was just a guess. 

[*michaelsean*]

(09-04-2015, 10:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: Apparently for the private jail he was taking bribes from.

That's not an indictment of the government or the electoral process....that's on the man and the private business who decided paying him off would be best.

The government consists of individuals.  Government corruption consists of corrupt individuals.  I am not for private jails, but to say the company was corrupt and the government was not is ridiculous.  

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-04-2015, 11:02 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I don't know for sure.  It was just a guess. 

Bet those things seem like operations cost issues with little room for profit. 

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 11:05 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Bet those things seem like operations cost issues with little room for profit. 

The US Department of Justice statistics show that, as of 2013, there were 133,000 state and federal prisoners housed in privately owned prisons in the US, constituting 8.4% of the overall U.S. prison population.[12] Broken down to prison type, 19.1% of the federal prison population in the United States is housed in private prisons and 6.8% of the U.S. state prison population is housed in private prisons.[12] While 2013 represents a slight decline in private prison population over 2012, the overall trend over the past decade has been a slow increase [12] Companies operating such facilities include the Corrections Corporation of America, the GEO Group, Inc. (formerly known as Wackenhut Securities), and Community Education Centers. In the past two decades CCA has seen its profits increase by more than 500 percent.[13] The prison industry as a whole took in over $5 billion in revenue in 2011.[14]

According to journalist Matt Taibbi, Wall Street banks took notice of this influx of cash, and are now some of the prison industry's biggest investors. Wells Fargo has around 100 million invested in GEO Group and 6 million in CCA. Other major investors include Bank of America, Fidelity Investments, General Electric and The Vanguard Group. CCA's share price went from a dollar in 2000 to $34.34 in 2013.[14] Sociologist John L. Campbell and activist and journalist Chris Hedges respectively assert that prisons in the United States have become a "lucrative" and "hugely profitable" business.[15][16]

[GMDino]

(09-04-2015, 11:03 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The government consists of individuals.  Government corruption consists of corrupt individuals.  I am not for private jails, but to say the company was corrupt and the government was not is ridiculous.  

Because the government didn't pay the bribes or accept that the bribes were good.

One man did.

So IN THIS CASE the private company and the judge were corrupt.  And the judge corrupted the system all by himself.  The SYSTEM was not corrupt...what the judge did to it was.  See?

[fredtoast]

(09-04-2015, 10:59 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Now that he's caught, government can now return to being that incorruptible entity we always believed it would be. 

:heart:

You were the one who claimed that adding a profit motive from the free market created corruption.

Do you still agree with that point or are you backing away from it?

I know that governments can be corrupt, but not as corrupt as the private free market.  The element of profit seeking rewards corruption in the private marketplace.