Judge who sold juveniles to jails gets 28 yrs

[*michaelsean*]

(09-04-2015, 11:44 AM)GMDino Wrote: Because the government didn't pay the bribes or accept that the bribes were good.

One man did.

So IN THIS CASE the private company and the judge were corrupt.  And the judge corrupted the system all by himself.  The SYSTEM was not corrupt...what the judge did to it was.  See?

Well then only the guy who gave him the bribe was corrupt.  Not the company.  

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 11:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You were the one who claimed that adding a profit motive from the free market created corruption.

Do you still agree with that point or are you backing away from it?

I know that governments can be corrupt, but not as corrupt as the private free market.  The element of profit seeking rewards corruption in the private marketplace.

I'm standing by my point.  Adding profits to a prison system COMBINED with corrupt government caused corruption in this case, and probably others.  

There's no gotcha here, as much as you'd like there to be one. 

[fredtoast]

Okay we have about 4 people talking in a circle about the same thing. Instead of quoting one of them I am just going to repeat my point.


Private businesses are way more corrupt than the government. In fact almost every time a government becomes corrupt in an area is because of influence from a for profit interest. The reason for this is that the motive to make profits rewards corruption in the free market. Almost all government corruption involves selling favors or influence in return for money from a business interest. Government contracts with private suppliers are also a major source of waste, especially in the defense industry.

So I am not saying that people in government are better people then those in private business. Instead I am just saying there is more corruption in the private free market because there is a greater reward in that system.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely".....So there are some people in government who get drunk with power and abuse it (mostly police officers and judges). We have to keep that in check, but it is only a miniscule portion of government corruption, and the rest is almost all directed toward corruption for profit.

So I don't see how anyone can claim that privatizing the prison system will lead to more corruption without admitting that the influence of corruption is much greater in the private free market.

[GodHatesBengals]

(09-04-2015, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay we have about 4 people talking in a circle about the same thing.  Instead of quoting one of them I am just going to repeat my point.


Private businesses are way more corrupt than the government.  In fact almost every time a government becomes corrupt in an area is because of influence from a for profit interest.  The reason for this is that the motive to make profits rewards corruption in the free market.  Almost all government corruption involves selling favors or influence in return for money from a business interest.  Government contracts with private suppliers are also a major source of waste, especially in the defense industry.

So I am not saying that people in government are better people then those in private business.  Instead I am just saying there is more corruption in the private free market because there is a greater reward in that system.  

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely".....So there are some people in government who get drunk with power and abuse it (mostly police officers and judges).  We have to keep that in check, but it is only a miniscule portion of government corruption, and the rest is almost all directed toward corruption for profit.

So I don't see how anyone can claim that privatizing the prison system will lead to more corruption without admitting that the influence of corruption is much greater in the private free market.

Your post is too long and contains big words. These guys need something snappier, like "government is bad!"

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-04-2015, 11:15 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: The US Department of Justice statistics show that, as of 2013, there were 133,000 state and federal prisoners housed in privately owned prisons in the US, constituting 8.4% of the overall U.S. prison population.[12] Broken down to prison type, 19.1% of the federal prison population in the United States is housed in private prisons and 6.8% of the U.S. state prison population is housed in private prisons.[12] While 2013 represents a slight decline in private prison population over 2012, the overall trend over the past decade has been a slow increase [12] Companies operating such facilities include the Corrections Corporation of America, the GEO Group, Inc. (formerly known as Wackenhut Securities), and Community Education Centers. In the past two decades CCA has seen its profits increase by more than 500 percent.[13] The prison industry as a whole took in over $5 billion in revenue in 2011.[14]

According to journalist Matt Taibbi, Wall Street banks took notice of this influx of cash, and are now some of the prison industry's biggest investors. Wells Fargo has around 100 million invested in GEO Group and 6 million in CCA. Other major investors include Bank of America, Fidelity Investments, General Electric and The Vanguard Group. CCA's share price went from a dollar in 2000 to $34.34 in 2013.[14] Sociologist John L. Campbell and activist and journalist Chris Hedges respectively assert that prisons in the United States have become a "lucrative" and "hugely profitable" business.[15][16]

I know they are making a profit jake...I agree with you that it is coming from somewhere, I am asking where.  This provides none of those answers.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 01:00 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Your post is too long and contains big words. These guys need something snappier, like "government is bad!"

It's too long and says nothing. 

Your post is shorter and more to the point.  "duh conz are stoopid".  

[Benton]

(09-04-2015, 10:52 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I still don't see what the value is to the government agency whether they fill the beds or not.  Either way they pay the same amount of money.  Seems to me there were other monitary gains being had.

Usually what happens is for-profit prisons say "if you keep it at X occupancy, we can incarcerate people at Y cost."

Part of where the corps make their money is just like how the hotel industry does. If you've got more cash, you can get nicer stuff. Want smokes, candy bars, a television? Just buy it at incredibly high mark ups. As long as you've got someone putting money in your account.

It's like someone asked "how can we get somebody to pay $4 for a candy bar?" And somebody answered "incarcerate them!"

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-04-2015, 01:18 PM)Benton Wrote: Usually what happens is for-profit prisons say "if you keep it at X occupancy, we can incarcerate people at Y cost."

Part of where the corps make their money is just like how the hotel industry does. If you've got more cash, you can get nicer stuff. Want smokes, candy bars, a television? Just buy it at incredibly high mark ups. As long as you've got someone putting money in your account.

It's like someone asked "how can we get somebody to pay $4 for a candy bar?" And somebody answered "incarcerate them!"

Ah so like movie theaters.

[Benton]

(09-04-2015, 01:25 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Ah so like movie theaters.

Yes. Movie theaters.

With shivs. 

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-04-2015, 01:43 PM)Benton Wrote: Yes. Movie theaters.

With shivs. 

So like Movie Theaters that show "Straight Outta Compton"

[*michaelsean*]

(09-04-2015, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay we have about 4 people talking in a circle about the same thing.  Instead of quoting one of them I am just going to repeat my point.


Private businesses are way more corrupt than the government.  In fact almost every time a government becomes corrupt in an area is because of influence from a for profit interest.  The reason for this is that the motive to make profits rewards corruption in the free market.  Almost all government corruption involves selling favors or influence in return for money from a business interest.  Government contracts with private suppliers are also a major source of waste, especially in the defense industry.

So I am not saying that people in government are better people then those in private business.  Instead I am just saying there is more corruption in the private free market because there is a greater reward in that system.  

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely".....So there are some people in government who get drunk with power and abuse it (mostly police officers and judges).  We have to keep that in check, but it is only a miniscule portion of government corruption, and the rest is almost all directed toward corruption for profit.

So I don't see how anyone can claim that privatizing the prison system will lead to more corruption without admitting that the influence of corruption is much greater in the private free market.

For me it has nothing to do with potential government.  The government is taking away their freedom and are responsible for them and their protection.  Once in prison you are virtually incapable of doing anything for yourself so the people who decide you need to go there need to be directly responsible for you.

[JustWinBaby]

(09-04-2015, 10:26 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I don't see any reason at all to advocate for privatization of jails.  I just don't see how anyone could be surprised that it would lead to corruption, more people being jailed and for longer periods of time. 

It saves the govt money if done correctly, and by that I mean not outsourcing all your jails but some number of beds you know will be filled, which makes govt-run jails more of an overflow to handle variances in the numbers of incarcerated individuals at any time.  Or it would probably be even better to outsource the overflow as private prisons not employing unionized govt workers with pensions have lower labor costs and can adjust many of their costs more easily.

The problem is when you want to set this up and a new prison needs to be BUILT, not you have huge CapEx that has to be billed....a rate that is lower on a per-head basis the more beds you fill, and also what might lead to closing of an older govt-run jail.

[JustWinBaby]

(09-04-2015, 11:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I know that governments can be corrupt, but not as corrupt as the private free market.  The element of profit seeking rewards corruption in the private marketplace.

That's a very circular argument.  The opportunity to corrupt, as it applies to cases involving the govt, stems 100% from the govt ability to regulate and fine (punish) and tax private industry.  This is especially bad in some socialist/communist/dictatorships where expropriation, pay-to-play and outright extortion are perks of the position.  

The US has laws against corporations engaging in that, but it's a real cost of doing business so those corporations break the law or they don't do business there.

The more govt you have, the more opportunity you have for favors or lobbying because regulatory compliance becomes a significant cost of doing business.  Obviously I'm not saying regulation is bad, but that's what creates the opportunity for corruption.  And I don't think whether an individual is in private industry or the govt makes either more or less likely to be corrupted.

I mean, is the OSHA inspector not rewarded when he's handed a bag of cash to look the other way?  It takes two to tango - you can't have corruption without a corrupt private company person AND a corrupt govt worker.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-04-2015, 06:00 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: It saves the govt money if done correctly, and by that I mean not outsourcing all your jails but some number of beds you know will be filled, which makes govt-run jails more of an overflow to handle variances in the numbers of incarcerated individuals at any time.  Or it would probably be even better to outsource the overflow as private prisons not employing unionized govt workers with pensions have lower labor costs and can adjust many of their costs more easily.

The problem is when you want to set this up and a new prison needs to be BUILT, not you have huge CapEx that has to be billed....a rate that is lower on a per-head basis the more beds you fill, and also what might lead to closing of an older govt-run jail.

I'm fine with all of that, until the point where people are being incarcerated unjustly to meet a quota. 

[JustWinBaby]

(09-04-2015, 06:15 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I'm fine with all of that, until the point where people are being incarcerated unjustly to meet a quota. 

Yeah, but that incentive can be taken away with proper planning.  And if you did a flat-rate instead of a per-head, then you create an incentive to send less people to jail and shorter sentences!

But similar issues exist without private prisons.  You have cops who's advancement is determined by close-rates, DA's looking to become judges or well-paid private lawyers wanting stellar conviction rates....of course budgets based on crime statistics and arrests.  The idea there's no "profit" motive in govt work and that doesn't create errors and corruption is simply ridiculous.

Pretty much from the moment man created govt, man created govt corruption.

[StLucieBengal]

So private jails are bad because of one corrupt judge and one corrupt jail?

The issue with jails is that when they are ran by the public they must have Unionized workforce. Then they have limitations on who can bid on other services. This drives the prices up.

bot sure how it's done elsewhere but here they charge you daily for bed, food, and clothing. Not to mention how Aramark over charges for "luxury" items which the county gets their cut plus gets paid by Aramek for the proviledge to sell. Plus they take a daily user fee out of the cantine accounts of the prisoners.

Not to say private wouldn't do some of these things but its easier to write tjings like this into the bidding process when contracting for services.

[GodHatesBengals]

(09-04-2015, 01:11 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: It's too long and says nothing. 

Your post is shorter and more to the point.  "duh conz are stoopid".  

If the shoe fits.

It actually said quite a lot. But it didn't have any of the snappy, memorable-but-false talking points you're accustomed to filling your brain with, so to you it was like reading Greek.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-06-2015, 10:04 AM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: If the shoe fits.

It actually said quite a lot. But it didn't have any of the snappy, memorable-but-false talking points you're accustomed to filling your brain with, so to you it was like reading Greek.

"Talking points"

"Bumper sticker slogans"

"Faux News"

"Narcissist"

Glad to meet a guy that's above talking points.  

[Brownshoe]

(09-06-2015, 09:32 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So private jails are bad because of one corrupt judge and one corrupt jail?  

The issue with jails is that when they are ran by the public they must have Unionized workforce.   Then they have limitations on who can bid on other services.    This drives the prices up.  

bot sure how it's done elsewhere but here they charge you daily for bed, food, and clothing.   Not to mention how Aramark over charges for "luxury" items which the county gets their cut plus gets paid by Aramek for the proviledge to sell.   Plus they take a daily user fee out of the cantine accounts of the prisoners.

Not to say private wouldn't do some of these things but its easier to write tjings like this into the bidding process when contracting for services.

Privatizing prisons is a horrible idea. Most of the time the staff is under trained and underpaid. Because the staff is underpaid they are more likely to get bribed into doing "work" for the inmates. It also cost just as much if not more than just leaving it public. If the state doesn't fill the private prisons up the private prisons can sue the state for millions of dollars. That just incentivizes the court system to send more people to jail, and for a longer period. Which causes overpopulation, and that in itself causes a LOT of problems.

The only bidding limitations that there is (and it's for EVERY state run facility), is that state employees can't bid giving the services. If it does drive up the price then it's very minimal. Anyone for privatization of prisons don't have all the facts, because only a fool would accept it.

[GodHatesBengals]

(09-06-2015, 10:07 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: "Talking points"

"Bumper sticker slogans"

"Faux News"

"Narcissist"

Glad to meet a guy that's above talking points.  

The primary difference here is that I have attempted on various occasions to discuss actual policy with you instead of trade slogans and thinly veiled insults, to absolutely no effect. As a matter of fact, during one particularly embarrassing dialogue, you proudly pronounced that you had "no need to research".

I'll admit that when I'm dealing with somebody who doesn't give a shit about whether or not they know what they're talking about, I tend to stoop to their level. But that's because trying to reach understanding with somebody who has zero interest in learning anything is a complete waste of time, an activity I don't much care for.

In other words, you need to take some "personal responsibility" and recognize that if you do nothing but spit uninformed nonsense at people all day, there's a great chance they're just going to poke fun at you. Or, per the last example, question your mental health.