Juneteenth and the lack of black lives in US curricula

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 09:50 AM)michaelsean Wrote: What the hell schools did you all go to? Hell my mostly white Catholic schools taught me all of that. And that’s in the 70s and 80s.

I'm going to be honest with you, a lot of Catholic schooling is leaps and bounds more socially progressive than public schooling. Not necessarily on all social topics, but this has been my understanding from folks.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-22-2020, 11:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: A really small, poor school on the edge of Appalachia in which part of my grade for Senior English involved tracing pictures from the textbook.

What pictures do you trace in English class?  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-22-2020, 12:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What pictures do you trace in English class?  

LOL

We were studying Greek mythology during that quarter. So all the pictures dealt with Greek mythology. I made the mistake of telling my wife. She loves to hit me with, “At least I wasn’t tracing during English” every chance she gets.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-22-2020, 01:24 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: LOL

We were studying Greek mythology during that quarter. So all the pictures dealt with Greek mythology. I made the mistake of telling my wife. She loves to hit me with, “At least I wasn’t tracing during English” every chance she gets.

Yeah she’s got that one in you forever.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-22-2020, 12:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm going to be honest with you, a lot of Catholic schooling is leaps and bounds more socially progressive than public schooling. Not necessarily on all social topics, but this has been my understanding from folks.

Yes I believe people would be surprised at how progressive the church is outside of things having to do with sex and abortion. And by progressive I mean in concert with progressives.

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 01:26 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes I believe people would be surprised at how progressive the church is outside of things having to do with sex and abortion. And by progressive I mean in concert with progressives.

They really would. A lot of people have zero understanding of those sorts of things.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-22-2020, 01:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They really would. A lot of people have zero understanding of those sorts of things.

But there are some things they could fix that have nothing to do with dogma or doctrine. They have a shortage of priests but ridiculously don’t allow priests to marry or women to be priests. It’s baffling.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 12:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm going to be honest with you, a lot of Catholic schooling is leaps and bounds more socially progressive than public schooling. Not necessarily on all social topics, but this has been my understanding from folks.

Catholics were victims of bigotry for many years here in the US.  Maybe that has softened their position on some issues.

I am pretty sure they have opposed the death penalty for quite a while.

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 01:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: But there are some things they could fix that have nothing to do with dogma or doctrine. They have a shortage of priests but ridiculously don’t allow priests to marry or women to be priests. It’s baffling.

I remember when Francis became Pope and that whole conversation cropped up, again, in the mainstream. I was not surprised to find out there is a sizable movement for this that includes priests that went Episcopal or Lutheran and also the secret partners of quite a large number of clergy.

[Belsnickel]

Anyway, on to the topic of the thread. So, I've known about Juneteenth for a while, now, because I grew up in the "black area" of my hometown. My best friend was black and his dad was an old school Black Panther who really only tolerated about 4 white people to step foot in his house. This caused me to get an education far beyond what I would have had otherwise. I've also had lots of conversations with scholars of African-American history as part of diversity discussions at our university.

Some of the interesting conversations about Juneteenth (which I brought up in another thread) have included things like:

- It should not be a celebration; it is a commemoration.
-Juneteenth shouldn't be a national thing. Each state/area should commemorate the dates they were emancipated (this apparently was what happened for several decades after the Civil War)
-It isn't appropriate to commemorate an end to slavery because we haven't ended slavery, yet.

These are just some of the topics that have been discussed. I, personally, have just sat and listened in these discussions but I thought these were good thoughts to bring up.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 01:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: -It isn't appropriate to commemorate an end to slavery because we haven't ended slavery, yet.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell my white power friends who talk about how many white slaves there were in the colonies because indentured servitude is the same a chattel slavery.  .  .  

"BULLSHIT!"

It is ridiculous to claim it is not appropriate to celebrate the end of innocent people being bought and sold like animals just because we continue to punish convicted criminals.  I think it is highly offensive to lump the innocent people who endured chattel slavery into the same group with convicted criminals being punished for a crime.

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 02:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll tell you the same thing I tell my white power friends who talk about how many white slaves there were in the colonies because indentured servitude is the same a chattel slavery.  .  .  

"BULLSHIT!"

It is ridiculous to claim it is not appropriate to celebrate the end of innocent people being bought and sold like animals just because we continue to punish convicted criminals.  I think it is highly offensive to lump the innocent people who endured chattel slavery into the same group with convicted criminals being punished for a crime.

You can tell that to the scholar who said it, not me. Those weren't my words.

I will only add to this, though, that you are ignoring that governments all across the South almost immediately enacted laws targeting the newly freed black population that made crimes things that they were perceived as doing at a higher rate in an effort to fill jails and prisons and continue to use them for free labor. These laws continue to be in existence to this day and their intention was not hidden. You can read the minutes of the legislative sessions in which these laws were enacted where they said explicitly they were passed to target the black population (and also that poor white would be caught up in it but they didn't care about them, either).

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2020, 02:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll tell you the same thing I tell my white power friends who talk about how many white slaves there were in the colonies because indentured servitude is the same a chattel slavery.  .  .  

"BULLSHIT!"

It is ridiculous to claim it is not appropriate to celebrate the end of innocent people being bought and sold like animals just because we continue to punish convicted criminals.  I think it is highly offensive to lump the innocent people who endured chattel slavery into the same group with convicted criminals being punished for a crime.

Many people of color, especially those in academia, would disagree with your assertion. To label an honest and nuanced conversation about the subject as "BULLSHIT" seems a very narrow-minded and insensitive dismissal. 

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 03:23 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Many people of color, especially those in academia, would disagree with your assertion. To label an honest and nuanced conversation about the subject as "BULLSHIT" seems a very narrow-minded and insensitive dismissal. 

Some people have no knowledge of the history of Black Codes that were enacted in the post-Civil War South (and the North before the war, to be honest with ourselves) that attempted to control the black community through the law and incentivized the arrest and imprisonment of black men so they could be used as free labor for localities and planters through "convict leasing." Ignorance of this history and its continued use up to present day and the impact it has had on the black community in modern times is what leads many people to make the misinformed arguments about "black-on-black crime" and discussing the way black fathers aren't around.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 03:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I will only add to this, though, that you are ignoring that governments all across the South almost immediately enacted laws targeting the newly freed black population that made crimes things that they were perceived as doing at a higher rate in an effort to fill jails and prisons and continue to use them for free labor.

I am not ignoring that fact at all.

You are the one who is ignoring the fact that that the "Black Codes" were overturned or rerealed long ago.  You won't find a single black person in the south trapped in a forced labor camp due to charges of "vagrancy".

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 03:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not ignoring that fact at all.

You are the one who is ignoring the fact that that the "Black Codes" were overturned or rerealed long ago.  You won't find a single black person in the south trapped in a forced labor camp due to charges of "vagrancy".

Yes, those specific laws were. Only to be replaced with laws like those against drug use that have harsher punishments for those drugs perceived as being use predominantly by black people. There are tons of examples of this sort of thing that show how this is a perpetual issue going on.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 03:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Ignorance of this history and its continued use up to present day and the impact it has had on the black community in modern times is what leads many people to make the misinformed arguments about "black-on-black crime" and discussing the way black fathers aren't around.

WQhat "blavk codes" are still being used today?

How is the argument about "black-on-black" crime "misinformed"?  I realize that most white crime is also "white-on-white", but white people are not trying to claim that black people are the reason white people are in prison.  Issues of racism in law enforcement and/or the court system does not change the fact that blacks commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than white people.  The proof is not from arrests or convictions or sentences.  It is from the high number of black people that report being the victim of violence from another black person.

And what do "black codes" have to do with black fathers being absent?  Black men in prison only make up a miniscule percentage of black absent fathers.  And NONE of them are in prison for violating any "black code".

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2020, 03:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not ignoring that fact at all.

You are the one who is ignoring the fact that that the "Black Codes" were overturned or rerealed long ago.  You won't find a single black person in the south trapped in a forced labor camp due to charges of "vagrancy".

Part of the overall conversation happening right now is the honest examination concerning other ways that people of color continue to be subjugated and controlled in forms that aren't physical slavery per se, but rather a psychological and systematic continuation of purposeful oppression that still feels very inescapable for many, even with the social and judicial progression that has been slowly contoured by modernity. 

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 03:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes, those specific laws were. Only to be replaced with laws like those against drug use that have harsher punishments for those drugs perceived as being use predominantly by black people. There are tons of examples of this sort of thing that show how this is a perpetual issue going on.

No there are not "tons of examples", and many of the disparities between crack and powder cocaine sentnces was corrected in 2010.

But the excessive sentences for crack were not based on race.  They were based on the violence that surrounded the crack cocaine business.  In the early 90's the murder rate in the US was 100% higher than it is now, and it was just about the same for other violent crimes.  And the main reason was the high number of "drug wars" between intercity gangs dealing crack.  Did it impact blacks and poor whites more than other groups?  Yes.  Was it based on race?  No.  It was based on a public safety policy to address the out-of-control level of violence in the streets.

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 03:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: WQhat "blavk codes" are still being used today?

How is the argument about "black-on-black" crime "misinformed"?  I realize that most white crime is also "white-on-white", but white people are not trying to claim that black people are the reason white people are in prison.  Issues of racism in law enforcement and/or the court system does not change the fact that blacks commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than white people.  The proof is not from arrests or convictions or sentences.  It is from the high number of black people that report being the victim of violence from another black person.

And what do "black codes" have to do with black fathers being absent?  Black men in prison only make up a miniscule percentage of black absent fathers.  And NONE of them are in prison for violating any "black code".

I'm not going to dig into all the research I have done on this for various classes or the lectures I have sat in on the topic. One of the best stops for some of this information, though, is The New Jim Crow. The book also contains a large amount of notes that can be mined for sources on this topic, as well. I know this because I availed myself of them for several research projects on the topic.