Juneteenth and the lack of black lives in US curricula

[Belsnickel]

(06-23-2020, 11:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And I'd like you to stop pretending that their is only one side to this issue.

In other words I'd like you to talk to some scholars that don't agree with you.

I have. I haven't found their statistics all that convincing.

[fredtoast]

(06-23-2020, 11:47 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: But do black people commit more crimes, or are they caught more often? Serious question that is hard to answer, I know, because anything we could talk about in that regard would be purely anecdotal and not really worth diving into, so I'll leave it as a thought experiment.

But the first part of this, that is something I have to point out. When an individual has contact with the criminal justice system, their likelihood of ending up in jail/prison for something more serious increases, does it not? So if racial profiling creates a higher rate of contact with the criminal justice system, which then increases the likelihood of those individuals doing something more serious down the road, would that not mean that those things are potentially, at least partially responsible for a higher crime rate by the black community?

I don't consider the US Bureau of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) "anecdotal".  It removes the possible influence of racist police or courts.  And according to it black people report being the victim of violent crime at a rate almost twice that of whites, and 70% of the offenders are other black people (just like most of the offenders against white people are other white people).


So are black crime victims part of the "systemic racism" that puts so many black people in jail?

[fredtoast]

(06-23-2020, 11:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have. I haven't found their statistics all that convincing.

What possible statistic proves that putting people in jail for selling crack is the same as buying and selling humans like animals under chattel slavery? How many prisoners have their children sold to the highest bidder?  How many thousands of prisoners are lynched or beaten to death each year?  How many prisoners are not allowed to learn to read or ever own any property in their lives?

[Belsnickel]

(06-23-2020, 11:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't consider the US Bureau of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) "anecdotal".  It removes the possible influence of racist police or courts.  And according to it black people report being the victim of violent crime at a rate almost twice that of whites, and 70% of the offenders are other black people (just like most of the offenders against white people are other white people).
So are black crime victims part of the "systemic racism" that puts so many black people in jail?

I see that I shouldn't have included both those things in my post, as the real question seeking a response was ignored.

Question, though. After reading the methodology for the survey, what about "victimless" crimes such as non-violent drug offenses and the like?

[Belsnickel]

(06-23-2020, 12:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What possible statistic proves that putting people in jail for selling crack is the same as buying and selling humans like animals under chattel slavery? How many prisoners have their children sold to the highest bidder?  How many thousands of prisoners are lynched or beaten to death each year?  How many prisoners are not allowed to learn to read or ever own any property in their lives?

Look, I understand you love your strawman arguments. I get it. But simmer down. Forcing incarcerated individuals to carry out labor is slavery. Full stop. Slavery still exists in modern society and it is disproportionately the black community that is forced into it. This can be explained, at least in part, by systemic oppression in the criminal justice system that was intentionally designed to target their community.

[BmorePat87]

I tried...

[fredtoast]

(06-23-2020, 12:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Question, though. After reading the methodology for the survey, what about "victimless" crimes such as non-violent drug offenses and the like?

Drug possession charges are much more effected by racial profiling, but from my experience (admittedly anecdotal) a majority of simple possession drug charges are the result of a search after an arrest for another charge.  Local police on the beat don't spend a lot of time or resources just looking to bust people for possessing small amounts of drugs.  They just sweep them up when executing arrest warrants for DUI, Failure to Appear, Violation of Probation, Domestic Assault, and other common crimes.
 
The cases of undercover agents busting dealers are actually a small portion of the crime log.  They reult in more felony charges and are much more common in the Fedral courts.

For the final time, I agree that their are racial inequalities in the criminal justice system.  I am just tired of hearing over and over and over again that the only reason there are a disproportionate percentage of black people in prison is racism in the system.  The fact is that a large part of the black culture glorifies "thug life" and gun violence, and that they commit a lot more violent crimes.

I am willing to help work on the racial inequalities in the criminal justice system.  So what are you willing to do to address the high violent crime rate in the black culture other than to blame it on white people?

[masonbengals fan]

(06-23-2020, 12:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Look, I understand you love your strawman arguments. I get it. But simmer down. Forcing incarcerated individuals to carry out labor is slavery. Full stop. Slavery still exists in modern society and it is disproportionately the black community that is forced into it. This can be explained, at least in part, by systemic oppression in the criminal justice system that was intentionally designed to target their community.

Calling bullshit on the slavery still exist theme. What should prisoners be doing. Setting back watching cable tv & surfing the internet? 

 If you don't want to be punished quit being a criminal.

https://www.dressember.org/blog/is-prison-labor-slave-labor-a-look-at-both-sides

I would think if I have a choice between sitting in a cell or working at something even for a pitiful wage I'd choose to get out of the cell & work.

[Dill]

(06-23-2020, 12:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The fact is that a large part of the black culture glorifies "thug life" and gun violence, and that they commit a lot more violent crimes.

I am willing to help work on the racial inequalities in the criminal justice system.  So what are you willing to do to address the high violent crime rate in the black culture other than to blame it on white people?

What is "black culture" and where does it come from? 

Also, I am wondering in what sense you are using the word "culture" here. 

I'm thinking if there is such a thing as "black culture" in the U.S., it ought to include black conservatism, the novels of Ralph Ellison and Toni Morrison, social analyses of W. E.B. DuBois, chain gang songs, jazz and church spirituals, along with the movies of Spike Lee.

[BmorePat87]

(06-23-2020, 12:41 PM)Dill Wrote: What is "black culture" and where does it come from? 

Also, I am wondering in what sense you are using the word "culture" here. 

I'm thinking if there is such a thing as "black culture" in the U.S., it ought to include black conservatism, the novels of Ralph Ellison and Toni Morrison, social analyses of W. E.B. DuBois, chain gang songs, jazz and church spirituals, along with the movies of Spike Lee.

Wait, it's not a monolith characterized solely by rap music? It's almost like we need to be teaching about black history and culture...

[Belsnickel]

(06-23-2020, 12:36 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Calling bullshit on the slavery still exist theme. What should prisoners be doing. Setting back watching cable tv & surfing the internet? 

 If you don't want to be punished quit being a criminal.

https://www.dressember.org/blog/is-prison-labor-slave-labor-a-look-at-both-sides

I would think if I have a choice between sitting in a cell or working at something even for a pitiful wage I'd choose to get out of the cell & work.

Well, your last line highlights the main point: there often is no choice in the matter. I take a little issue with the blog post you linked, specifically the line "[h]owever, many argue that these terms did not abolish slavery. Slavery was merely reformed." It isn't an argument to be had. The 13th Amendment does not abolish slavery because it says that if you are convicted of a crime you can be forced into slavery. Therefore, slavery still exists in this country. I did find that post interesting from a page about ethical clothing where they say part of that standard is no forced labor. Seems they would have a stronger stance on that one.

Were the wages fair, were they given a choice, were they learning a trade to help reduce their recidivism, etc., etc., then it'd be one thing. However, they usually aren't given a choice and it is often to perform jobs that are otherwise shipped overseas because it is too costly to have these factories in the US without the slave labor from our prisons. This is especially true for prisons which engage in the tried and true method of convict leasing to private companies. Why do you think private prison companies have threatened to shut their doors if they aren't sent enough convicts by the criminal justice system?

Call it bullshit all you want, that doesn't change these facts.

[fredtoast]

(06-23-2020, 12:41 PM)Dill Wrote: What is "black culture" and where does it come from? 

Also, I am wondering in what sense you are using the word "culture" here. 

I'm thinking if there is such a thing as "black culture" in the U.S., it ought to include black conservatism, the novels of Ralph Ellison and Toni Morrison, social analyses of W. E.B. DuBois, chain gang songs, jazz and church spirituals, along with the movies of Spike Lee.

(06-23-2020, 12:56 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Wait, it's not a monolith characterized solely by rap music? It's almost like we need to be teaching about black history and culture...

So neither one of you are disagreeing that a large portion of black culture glorifies "thug life" and gun violence?  I never said it was "all" of black culture.  But you guys are obviously just trying to dodge the issue.

I am willing to admit that there is racism in the white culture despite John Brown being a white man and a long list of white people who fought for civil rights.

Are either of you willing to admit that the Rap and Hip-hop culture don't have a problem with promoting thug life, misogyny, and gun violence?  And I know that white rock stars have glorified drug use, but the Rap/Hip-hop industry is the ONLY industry controlled by the black community.  It is a much bigger influence in the black society than rock music is in white culture.  Rap music moguls are seen as the industrial giants in the black community.

[Dill]

(06-22-2020, 09:02 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: As mentioned in the rep, very good points; personally think it's a culture thing that started the oppression, back when they were taken from Africa: steal them from their land, strip away their rights and freedoms (ie: make them, "culturally-lesser," or, "culturally-beneath," White Man) and then the oppression falls in line, the second one of them attempts to take back what was taken.

JMO, I may be way off.

Certainly, slaves were socialized in ways that reduced incentives to save money, value education, develop a personal work ethic and assume responsibility for the welfare of their own children. When freed, they were thrown onto the economy to fend for themselves, with what little help they were originally given rolled back by 1875.

And yet, in the hundred years following the Civil War, millions of black citizens reversed that socialization, became hard working people who valued education, saved money, and celebrated personal responsibility (the latter sometimes to their detriment).  Remember one of the motivations for the Tulsa massacre was the AFFLUENCE of Greenwood--black people with grand pianos in their homes and new cars. Educated and "uppity." Unfair to poor whites. The backbone of the Civil Rights movement were these capable, competent and courageous descendants of slaves, who fought to get their foot into higher education as well lunch counters. Just as the backbone of white supremacy, segregation, and the "take American back" movement has been those who felt most threatened by black success.

If there is an urban "thug culture," now quite unfairly labelled "black culture," then likely its roots are less in slavery than in the innumerable blocks to advancement that striving black families encountered for decades, even post WWII. Blocks which prevented them from getting loans and housing, and concentrated many in urban settings among "their own kind." Such blocks can not only induce cynicism towards about life goals easily in reach of whites, but lead to celebration of "tricksters" who live by cheating "the man." No surprise if, in an advanced capitalist society, a market of music and film opens which celebrate and reinforce this cynicism. 

Meanwhile, systemic racism can continue little noticed by whites, still ever ready to explain away results of long term historical trends in terms of personal responsibility, or mysterious lack thereof.  

[fredtoast]

(06-23-2020, 01:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, your last line highlights the main point: there often is no choice in the matter. I take a little issue with the blog post you linked, specifically the line "[h]owever, many argue that these terms did not abolish slavery. Slavery was merely reformed." It isn't an argument to be had. The 13th Amendment does not abolish slavery because it says that if you are convicted of a crime you can be forced into slavery. Therefore, slavery still exists in this country.

That is like saying Kidnapping is not illegal because police do it to criminals.


Chattel slavery has been abolished.  Prisoners can not be bought and sold.  Neither can their wives or children.  Prisons can't beat or kill inmates whenever they want.  And if you don't want to be a prison slave YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

Again, comparing chattel slavery to prison labor is an insult to the innocent people who suffered under chattel slavery.

[Dill]

(06-23-2020, 01:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Are either of you willing to admit that the Rap and Hip-hop culture don't have a problem with promoting thug life, misogyny, and gun violence?  And I know that white rock stars have glorified drug use, but the Rap/Hip-hop industry is the ONLY industry controlled by the black community.  It is a much bigger influence in the black society than rock music is in white culture.  Rap music moguls are seen as the industrial giants in the black community.

For the moment, I'll just refer you to my post #73 above, which I was writing as you posted your #74.

If there is a disagreement between you and me, it is not about the existence of some Rap songs about "bustin caps" in some cop's ass.

Our disagreement appears to be over how there came to be a market for such songs, and why they might reinforce bad behavior in some audiences and not others. 

But Rap and Hip-Hop are "black culture" to the same degree that Arab rap is now part of Middle Eastern culture.

[masonbengals fan]

Fred made my point much more eloquently than I am capable of. .

[fredtoast]

(06-23-2020, 01:16 PM)Dill Wrote: If there is an urban "thug culture," now quite unfairly labelled "black culture," then likely its roots are less in slavery than in the innumerable blocks to advancement that striving black families encountered for decades, even post WWII. Blocks which prevented them from getting loans and housing, and concentrated many in urban settings among "their own kind." Such blocks can not only induce cynicism towards about life goals easily in reach of whites, but lead to celebration of "tricksters" who live by cheating "the man." No surprise if, in an advanced capitalist society, a market of music and film opens which celebrate and reinforce this cynicism. 

There were also reasons white people idolized bank robbers in the 1930's, but we moved past that.


I understand there are reasons for blacks to be impressed by the amounts of money made by selling crack or pimping whores.  But they have to get over that also.

[Dill]

(06-23-2020, 01:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is like saying Kidnapping is not illegal because police do it to criminals.

Chattel slavery has been abolished.  Prisoners can not be bought and sold.  Neither can their wives or children.  Prisons can't beat or kill inmates whenever they want.  And if you don't want to be a prison slave YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

Again, comparing chattel slavery to prison labor is an insult to the innocent people who suffered under chattel slavery.

Legalized chattel slavery is gone.  But its functional equivalents are still there.

And however nominally, still a concern of the US gov.  https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/

Few of the millions of people trafficked in the US today don't choose to be.

[Belsnickel]

(06-23-2020, 01:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is like saying Kidnapping is not illegal because police do it to criminals.

Chattel slavery has been abolished.  Prisoners can not be bought and sold.  Neither can their wives or children.  Prisons can't beat or kill inmates whenever they want.  And if you don't want to be a prison slave YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

Again, comparing chattel slavery to prison labor is an insult to the innocent people who suffered under chattel slavery.

Let me put some emphasis on my statement in the hopes that it gets through to you.

THE 13TH AMENDMENT CALLS PRISON LABOR SLAVERY/INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE

Does that help? You're continued insistence that I am comparing chattel slavery to the modern day slavery of prison labor is a strawman argument and it has been from the start. I have never said it was as bad as chattel slavery. I never said chattel slavery continued. I said slavery continued, and it has.

[Dill]

(06-23-2020, 01:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There were also reasons white people idolized bank robbers in the 1930's, but we moved past that.

I understand there are reasons for blacks to be impressed by the amounts of money made by selling crack or pimping whores.  But they have to get over that also.

Those white people who idolized bank robbers were not blocked from loans, housing and education by their race for decades after the 1930s, were they? 

Wide ranging opportunity might have made "moving past" a little easier.

"They have to get over that" doesn't seem like much of a program.  And quite unlikely to work without some better understanding of why "pimping whores" should be attractive to, seriously what, maybe .01% of the total population of African Americans in the U.S.? Less?

Your framing of these social problems seems rather reductive, given the easy comparison is to "some white people back when" followed by a wag of the finger.