Regarding Marriage Equality, I'm Proud of the American People

[fredtoast]

(06-29-2015, 12:19 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  

Having a small unelected group who is not held accountable to anyone being able to lord over is all by redefining words.    

But if they are elected by popular vote their is no protection for the rights of the minorities.

You really don't have much of a clue about how our Constitution works.

[fredtoast]

(06-29-2015, 09:13 AM)GMDino Wrote: Yes.  And it would to you but I'm sure there's a single word you want to argue.

No church  / official from the church is walking in to my house to make sure there is no sodomy going on.  They are too busy working with politicians that will pass laws allowing the state to control my behavior.

Get it?  Of course you do.  But here comes the snarky response....

Of the $42 million spent in California to support prop 8 (oppose gay marriage) $30 million came from churches.  Most of it was from the Mormons.  I guess they are still upset about polygamy being outlawed.

I believe that churches should be able to try and influence their own members as much as they want within their own church. If a religion oppose gay marriage then they should be able to preach about that inside their own church. But if they are going to become politically active outside of the church doors then they need to be taxed.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-29-2015, 11:19 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Not to sound like a total arse, but your lack of perspective on this may explain why you seem to think it isn't a big deal.  In addition to anecdotal evidence gathered over the years (including my ol' man's story about the pastor of his church telling the congregation if JFK is elected the country is doomed) I simply typed:

"preacher tells congregation to vote for bush" into google and got more than 0 results.  You otter try it.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=preacher+tells+congregation+to+vote+for

they aren't allowed to have a moral objection?

Where is the responsiblily of the people come into play? Unless the pastor is going into the voting booth and making their selections.

I advocate for what I think is right with my friends, church members, etc... Where do you get they are forcing anyone ?

[StLucieBengal]

(06-29-2015, 12:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Of the $42 million spent in California to support prop 8 (oppose gay marriage) $30 million came from churches.  Most of it was from the Mormons.  I guess they are still upset about polygamy being outlawed.

I believe that churches should be able to try and influence their own members as much as they want within their own church.  If a religion oppose gay marriage then they should be able to preach about that inside their own church.  But if they are going to become politically active outside of the church doors then they need to be taxed.

So religious individuals or individuals with a moral objection are not allowed to give money to causes they believe? Or is it only ok for the causes you value?

[*Nately120*]

(06-29-2015, 01:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: they aren't allowed to have a moral objection?

Where is the responsiblily of the people come into play?   Unless the pastor is going into the voting booth and making their selections.  

I advocate for what I think is right with my friends, church members, etc...    Where do you get they are forcing anyone ?

I'm not saying it's the rule, but there are more than 0 cases of religious organizations removing membership and status based upon what they see as dangerous political dissension.  Again, you are dismissing this as an issue based upon your own (intentional?) lack of research.

I watched a high-ranking religious figure turn a woman's entire family against her for getting a divorce from her abusive husband. Sure, the family is to blame for being so easily controlled, but it's rather naive to simply assume religion can't strong-arm people into doing things. Wait, aren't you the same person who thinks Islam makes people into maniacal killing machines? I get it, white people religion never makes people do stuff...it's just a nice little suggestion!

[fredtoast]

(06-29-2015, 01:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So religious individuals or individuals with a moral objection are not allowed to give money to causes they believe?   Or is it only ok for the causes you value?

Individuals can do whatever they want.   Churches can not.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-29-2015, 02:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not saying it's the rule, but there are more than 0 cases of religious organizations removing membership and status based upon what they see as dangerous political dissension.  Again, you are dismissing this as an issue based upon your own (intentional?) lack of research.

I watched a high-ranking religious figure turn a woman's entire family against her for getting a divorce from her abusive husband.  Sure, the family is to blame for being so easily controlled, but it's rather naive to simply assume religion can't strong-arm people into doing things.  Wait, aren't you the same person who thinks Islam makes people into maniacal killing machines?  I get it, white people religion never makes people do stuff...it's just a nice little suggestion!

I see your point ... And it's not my lack of research.  I just see religion differently than you I suppose.  I have never seen any church that I have been associated pull any of this... And quite frankly if I saw or expierenced that I would question immediately and leave the church to find one that was reasonable.  

The church is our place to worship how we want to worship.    In our instance  (my family) we choose how we worship and what's important to us.   So that's how we choose our church.  

And to be clear if any church or group commands or pushes you to support something that doesn't feel right.  Then you need to leave.

And only an idiot uses absolutes so I know there is some Backwards church doing exactly what I believe is wrong. It's the individuals that have to decide. That's why I think it's not a church problem. Because it's up to the individules.

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2015, 03:39 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I see your point ... And it's not my lack of research.  I just see religion differently than you I suppose.  I have never seen any church that I have been associated pull any of this... And quite frankly if I saw or expierenced that I would question immediately and leave the church to find one that was reasonable.  

The church is our place to worship how we want to worship.    In our instance  (my family) we choose how we worship and what's important to us.   So that's how we choose our church.  

And to be clear if any church or group commands or pushes you to support something that doesn't feel right.  Then you need to leave.

And only an idiot uses absolutes so I know there is some Backwards church doing exactly what I believe is wrong.    It's the individuals that have to decide.   That's why I think it's not a church problem.  Because it's up to the individules.

In all fairness I've never seen a church with which I have been associated (all 1 of 'em) pull this sort of thing either, but even locally I've seen churches that lack scruples and parishioners who lack backbones.  So it goes.