KY Bill allowing Bible literacy classes in public schools

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: WTF?

No.  I never said anything like that.

All I said is that there is no mention of "Christian principles" anywhere in the Constitution.

Do you honestly think the founding fathers would have been in favor if infringing on the rights of Jews or Muslims to worship as they please in the United States because everyone implicitly knew that there was only one true religion and it was Christianity.  Where the hell did you come up with such an insane idea?

You said exactly like that, as you said the fundementals of Christianity shouldn't be taught in school because the Constitution says religion not Christianity (remember I had the 2 confused) and found it so important that they made it #1. So your arguement is it was not founded on Christian principles because the Christian was not used. Given the history of the country at the time the Constitution was written do you think they had aspecific religion in mind when they wrote #1?

You say you can't argue it because the Constitution didn't say it (remember you saying a "came stong with it"? When shown how hypocritical that line of thinking was it quickly turned to what they meant.

[*michaelsean*]

I think the Founding Fathers were basically eyeballing different denominations of Chrisianity. Not that other religions wouldn't be included, but they didn't want one national denomination. If I'm not mistaken, some of our colonies defined themselves by denomination. Maryland was Catholic and Virginia was Protestant.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 02:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Given the history of the country at the time the Constitution was written do you think they had aspecific religion in mind when they wrote #1?

I actually think the founding fathers were educated men who were absolutely aware of other religions like Islam and Judaism.  And I think they intended ALL religions to be protected by the First Amendment.

It seems a bit absurd to argue that a man as well educated as James Adams did not know about other religions and used the word "religion" to mean ONLY Christianity.

(03-15-2016, 02:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You say you can't argue it because the Constitution didn't say it (remember you saying a "came stong with it"? When shown how hypocritical that line of thinking was it quickly turned to what they meant.

I can not understand the meaning of this gibberish.  I have never mentioned anything that is not clearly stated in the Constitution.  "Religion" means "religion", and that is exactly what is written in the Constitution.  What have I claimed that is not clearly written in the Constitution?

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 02:08 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I think the Founding Fathers were basically eyeballing different denominations of Chrisianity. Not that other religions wouldn't be included, but they didn't want one national denomination. If I'm not mistaken, some of our colonies defined themselves by denomination. Maryland was Catholic and Virginia was Protestant.

Pretty much all colonies did this. South was Anglican to the east and on the frontier you had Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and some other smaller groups. They stuck to the frontier to avoid the state meddling in their affairs, though all of their preachers if ordained had to be ordained Anglican. Maryland was a Catholic colony. Pennsylvania was technically free of this sort of thing, but it was a Quaker colony. They were just more accepting of others. Calvinists tended to populate the north.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 01:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The Pilgrims and our Founding Fathers are two different groups separated by about 150 years. I was responding to this:


and then this:


The Norse did not establish permanent settlements and they did not, as far as we now, make it into what became the 13 original colonies. The first permanent settlement in the English colonies was Jamestown. The Spanish had a settlement in Florida already, I believe. Both of these were business ventures. That is what this country was founded on. The Pilgrims did not found this country, and they were not the first permanent settlement.

Just so I understand you fully and there is not accusation of splitting hairs. Do you think the United States of America was founded based on Christian principles?

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 02:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Just so I understand you fully and there is not accusation of splitting hairs. Do you think the United States of America was founded based on Christian principles?

I still don't mean what you mean by "Christian principles".  

If you mean "Christianity is the only true religion" then, "No" our country was not founded on Christian principles.

[SteelCitySouth]

(03-15-2016, 02:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Just so I understand you fully and there is not accusation of splitting hairs. Do you think the United States of America was founded based on Christian principles?

I'd say your question was put to rest in 1797...But who's John Adams anyway right?

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I actually think the founding fathers were educated men who were absolutely aware of other religions like Islam and Judaism.  And I think they intended ALL religions to be protected by the First Amendment.

It seems a bit absurd to argue that a man as well educated as James Adams did not know about other religions and used the word "religion" to mean ONLY Christianity.



I can not understand the meaning of this gibberish.  I have never mentioned anything that is not clearly stated in the Constitution.  "Religion" means "religion", and that is exactly what is written in the Constitution.  What have I claimed that is not clearly written in the Constitution?

Where did I state the fore-fathers did not recognize there were other religions in the world? The were establishing the building blocks for THIS country and it can be assumed that they were talking about the religion of this country. Your only counter is they did not specify which religion. of course they meant any religion, however; when taking about the building blocks of this nation I assume them to mean the religion of this nation.

Seperation of Church and State is not "clearly written" in the Consitution either.

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 02:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Just so I understand you fully and there is not accusation of splitting hairs. Do you think the United States of America was founded based on Christian principles?

I think Christian principles played a role in the foundation of our nation as the framers of our country's government were all influenced by them and it is reflected in their lives. Even within enlightenment thinking, which was really the foundation for most of our constitutional principles, there is a place for God.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with people not knowing historical fact. I don't know if we should have the Bible being taught in schools when the ball is apparently being dropped when it comes to U.S. history.

[SteelCitySouth]

(03-15-2016, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think Christian principles played a role in the foundation of our nation as the framers of our country's government were all influenced by them and it is reflected in their lives. Even within enlightenment thinking, which was really the foundation for most of our constitutional principles, there is a place for God.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with people not knowing historical fact. I don't know if we should have the Bible being taught in schools when the ball is apparently being dropped when it comes to U.S. history.

Further it feels like churches must be failing hard core at bible study since we're looking for the public system to take over for them.  

[BmorePat87]

(03-15-2016, 01:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Most understand the Principles the Founding Fathers built these Nation on.

Yea, the enlightenment. 

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 02:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I still don't mean what you mean by "Christian principles".  

If you mean "Christianity is the only true religion" then, "No" our country was not founded on Christian principles.

That 100% of the population in 1776 was Christian and their daily lives revolved around it. Why would they not infuse their beliefs in a society they created? (Waits for article disputing 100% were Christians; more like 98.9%)

We are not the first population to dispute this notion and as it is intepreted today Relgion (Christianity) is not allowed in the classroom and I except that; you know, the topic of the OP. This does not mean for every "see you are wrong' someone can find, I cannot counter with "see I am not". Do I think the founding fathers used Christianity as a basis to form our nation? Yes. Do I think they would say WTF when they saw it today? Yes.   

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That 100% of the population in 1776 was Christian and their daily lives revolved around it. Why would they not infuse their beliefs in a society they created?

Call me "crazy", but I assume it was because they felt that people should be allowed to follow whatever religion the wanted without any government involvement. 

Also I didn't ask why they didn't do it. I asked for an example of them doing it.  Where are the specific "Christian principles" in our Constitution?

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 02:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Call me "crazy", but I assume it was because they felt that people should be allowed to follow whatever religion the wanted without any government involvement. 

Also I didn't ask why they didn't do it. I asked for an example of them doing it.  Where are the specific "Christian principles" in our Constitution?

Where is Seperation of Church and State?

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  Do I think they would say WTF when they saw it today? Yes.   

This is exactly what they would say when they heard people like you claiming that the religious freedoms in the Constitution apply ONLY to Christianity and not other religions.

The founding fathers were well aware of other religions and religious persecution by all religions throughout history.  I really can not imagine any of them saying "Jews are not covered by the religious freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution."

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 02:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where is Seperation of Church and State?

How much does tea cost in China?

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 02:20 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I'd say your question was put to rest in 1797...But who's John Adams anyway right?

Is that referencing this:

In a 1794 letter to the Massachusetts Legislature, Samuel Adams wrote, "In the supposed state of nature, all men are equally bound by the laws of nature, or to speak more properly, the laws of the Creator."

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 02:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Call me "crazy", but I assume it was because they felt that people should be allowed to follow whatever religion the wanted without any government involvement. 

Also I didn't ask why they didn't do it. I asked for an example of them doing it.  Where are the specific "Christian principles" in our Constitution?

When was the Constitution composed? Word for Word...

[SteelCitySouth]

(03-15-2016, 02:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Is that referencing this:

In a 1794 letter to the Massachusetts Legislature, Samuel Adams wrote, "In the supposed state of nature, all men are equally bound by the laws of nature, or to speak more properly, the laws of the Creator."

Nope...It's not even the same year.  Try again.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 02:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is exactly what they would say when they heard people like you claiming that the religious freedoms in the Constitution apply ONLY to Christianity and not other religions.

That's just a bumper sticker you read once and it stuck with you. No one is suggesting anyone's religious freedoms be infringed upon.

The discussion is about teaching the Bible in school. I was taught Evolution in school; were my religious beliefs infringed upon?