KY Bill allowing Bible literacy classes in public schools

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 05:15 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Why has no one argued against the highlighted part?

Because not a single person is against teaching that religious beliefs had an influence in world history and the shaping of cultures.

But that is nothing like claiming that the Bible is the "cornerstone of literature" and devoting an entire class to the subject.

Comparative religious studies should be a required class for all high school students.  But that is different than studying the Bible as the basis of a literature course that also teaches its influence on morality.

[McC]

(03-15-2016, 01:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not if you're talking about why people came here. One, business enterprises came here first. Two, those we call Pilgrims may have come to escape religious intolerance, but they were not for religious freedom (unless it meant their religion). The same can be said for every colony with a religious background that was founded, except for Pennsylvania. But even there, there was some religious intolerance for those denominations not deemed to be worthy enough to be there.

Actually, they first went to Holland, where they did escape religious persecution.  They went to America because life in Holland was just too damn hard.

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 05:44 PM)McC Wrote: Actually, they first went to Holland, where they did escape religious persecution.  They went to America because life in Holland was just too damn hard.

I wouldn't call what they went through religious persecution. It was political, really. The Puritans held the same beliefs but because they were willing to, essentially, be official with the state, they had no issues. Those we call the Pilgrims today were really calling for a separation of church and state, which I can admire, but it was more of a political fight than a religious one, at least in my opinion.

[BFritz21]

(03-15-2016, 03:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true at all.

I don't know of a single Old Testament Story that has any historical proof behind it.  Some of the cities mentioned actually existed, but there is no historical proof of any of the stories.

Except for ones like this, when remains of two now-exist whale species were found in the Saraha Desert.

Quote:Of course, you shouldn’t expect the secularists to explain how the presence of the bones in the arid desert point to the accuracy of the biblical flood story. They will, in fact, work long and hard to invent un-provable — and thus, unscientific — theories explaining how they got there

I realize that you won't follow that link because it goes against what you're trying to argue, but that's pretty close to proof of the Great Flood as you'll get.

(03-15-2016, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because not a single person is against teaching that religious beliefs had an influence in world history and the shaping of cultures.

But that is nothing like claiming that the Bible is the "cornerstone of literature" and devoting an entire class to the subject.

Comparative religious studies should be a required class for all high school students.  But that is different than studying the Bible as the basis of a literature course that also teaches its influence on morality.

Then what is the basis for morality?  It has to have some basis, and wouldn't that be forcing your beliefs on someone in a way more than offering an elective course that offers things that are the cornerstones of society and film, literature, music, public policy, etc.?  

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 07:13 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Except for ones like this, when remains of two now-exist whale species were found in the Saraha Desert.

I realize that you won't follow that link because it goes against what you're trying to argue, but that's pretty close to proof of the Great Flood as you'll get.

Except, not really. The fossil record indicates the Sahara was a sea about 150-200 mya.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 07:13 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Except for ones like this, when remains of two now-exist whale species were found in the Saraha Desert.


I realize that you won't follow that link because it goes against what you're trying to argue, but that's pretty close to proof of the Great Flood as you'll get.

It is not proof of a great flood at all.

First of all those fossils are millions of years old not 3000 years old.

Second of all the earth has been constantly changing through plate tectonics for millions of years.  Many areas of the world have been underwater at different times, but at no time has the entire planet been covered with water.  At least at no time when any sort of complex life was present.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 07:13 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Then what is the basis for morality?  It has to have some basis, and wouldn't that be forcing your beliefs on someone in a way more than offering an elective course that offers things that are the cornerstones of society and film, literature, music, public policy, etc.?  

Not sure what you are trying to say here.  The Bible has nothing to do with my morality.  In fact I reject many of the things the Bible claims to be moral.

Morality existed long before the Bible, and morality existed in every culture on earth before they ever heard of the Bible.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 08:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure what you are trying to say here.  

He is likely trying to say things like compassion and an appreciation for the arts does not fit into the survival of the fittest model. 

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 08:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: He is likely trying to say things like compassion and an appreciation for the arts does not fit into the survival of the fittest model. 

Actually humans working together as a group and developing compassion for each other is a direct result of "survival of the fittest".  The humans that learned to work together instead of killing each other thrived while the others died out.

[Beaker]

(03-15-2016, 02:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: the fundementals of Christianity shouldn't be taught in school

Correct. Not in public school. You can teach them in private schools, in church, or at home.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 08:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually humans working together as a group and developing compassion for each other is a direct result of "survival of the fittest".  The humans that learned to work together instead of killing each other thrived while the others died out.

This has nothing to do with compassion. You are simply explaining the process of teamwork. Why do we give to the poor? Why do we appreciate fine art, music, ect...? Has zero to do with we learned to work as a team.  

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This has nothing to do with compassion. You are simply explaining the process of teamwork. Why do we give to the poor? Why do we appreciate fine art, music, ect...? Has zero to do with we learned to work as a team.  

Has zero to do with the Bible also.

[GMDino]

(03-15-2016, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This has nothing to do with compassion. You are simply explaining the process of teamwork. Why do we give to the poor? Why do we appreciate fine art, music, ect...? Has zero to do with we learned to work as a team.  

Well, we don't.

Not everyone at least.

But some people do with no belief in any god or religious construct at all.

They are just good people.

Some people don't even though their god tells them too.  Or they fight programs that help because they think their god tells them it must done by the individual and not by the country they live in.

As to fine art and music it is in the eye of the beholder also.

I love music by Weird Al.  Not everyone's cup of tea.  I do not like opera, some people pay to go see it.

I guess what I'm getting at is that what you are is what you are.  If you are only something because you think your god wants it or will punish you for it then that's not really what you are.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 09:08 PM)GMDino Wrote: Well, we don't.

Not everyone at least.

But some people do with no belief in any god or religious construct at all.

They are just good people.

Some people don't even though their god tells them too.  Or they fight programs that help because they think their god tells them it must done by the individual and not by the country they live in.

As to fine art and music it is in the eye of the beholder also.

I love music by Weird Al.  Not everyone's cup of tea.  I do not like opera, some people pay to go see it.

I guess what I'm getting at is that what you are is what you are.  If you are only something because you think your god wants it or will punish you for it then that's not really what you are.

Belief in God has nothing to do with being created. Why in turn leads to the endless cycle of why don't everyone created believe. We've been down that rabbit hole 100 times. But the bottom line is compassion doesn't fit the survival of the fittest model, it points to a creator.  

[BmorePat87]

(03-15-2016, 05:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I completely understand what you are saying and that's why I suggested that all major religions should be taught and done so proportionate to the society. The only counter to that was: "What if they go somewhere else it the world when they grow up?" My answer to that, like everything else relevant to the new society is expatriate training and familiarization.

I can't argue against that. I think understanding each of the major religions would be a benefit to all students. Up here we do that in Modern World History, but only to an extent. 

There's an elective (World Religions) that can be taken in addition to that.

[GMDino]

(03-15-2016, 09:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Belief in God has nothing to do with being created. Why in turn leads to the endless cycle of why don't everyone created believe. We've been down that rabbit hole 100 times. But the bottom line is compassion doesn't fit the survival of the fittest model, it points to a creator.  

I said absolutely nothing about being created.


Compassion may not be from survival of the fittest.  Too often it has been the ugliest among us who would kill just to have more money, more power, more whatever instead of humans understanding we need each other more than we need slaves and money.

But, again, plenty of people are nicer than plenty of believers.  Is your opinion they got this from a god even if they don't believe in it?  

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 09:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  But the bottom line is compassion doesn't fit the survival of the fittest model, it points to a creator.  

Compassion is just a higher-level abstract concept among a self-aware species.  It has nothing to do with a creator.

How can you claim that compassion comes from a creator who has zero compassion for people who do not worship him?  To me the fact that people are kind to other people who do not worship them disproves the existence of a creator.  Humans had to learn compassion from some place other than the Christian god or else we would only reward people who worshipped us.

[GMDino]

(03-15-2016, 09:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Compassion is just a higher-level abstract concept among a self-aware species.  It has nothing to do with a creator.

How can you claim that compassion comes from a creator who has zero compassion for people who do not worship him?  To me the fact that people are kind to other people who do not worship them disproves the existence of a creator.  Humans had to learn compassion from some place other than the Christian god or else we would only reward people who worshipped us.

I made the joke recently that the Christian faith comes down to god saying here is one rule...don't break it.

Then after wiping out the entire race (except one family) saying here are TEN rules...that should be easier.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 09:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: I said absolutely nothing about being created.


Compassion may not be from survival of the fittest.  Too often it has been the ugliest among us who would kill just to have more money, more power, more whatever instead of humans understanding we need each other more than we need slaves and money.

But, again, plenty of people are nicer than plenty of believers.  Is your opinion they got this from a god even if they don't believe in it?  

I believe we were created with a sense of compassion. Believer or non-believer were created by the same being. Belief in God is not a requirement to be a good person, nor does a belief in God automatically make you a "good person".  

WTS, this thread has already went too far off the rails. I see pat trying to get it back on track and I am going to comply. 

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 09:16 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I can't argue against that. I think understanding each of the major religions would be a benefit to all students. Up here we do that in Modern World History, but only to an extent. 

There's an elective (World Religions) that can be taken in addition to that.

I will say SCS's suggestion that major relgions should but taught converse to the prevailing religion as school's design is to teah one new things, then i remembered benton's words that school is designed to prepare you for the future. Regardless who says what, over 70% of this nation is Christian. It would be beneficial to the other percent to truly understand what motivates the majority and it should be done by non-biased personnel.

Can you imagine never hearing about Christianity and forming your opinion from what you read on these boards.