Kamala Harris: Enjoy The Long Weekend

[hollodero]

(06-08-2021, 12:24 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Let me be clear, anyone who arrives with displays like these ought to be charged with some sort of crime and force should be used to disperse the crowd ASAP.  It's disgusting and dangerous behavior that has no place in America or in the 21st century.  It's not a statement, it's completely idiocy.

Yup.

(06-08-2021, 12:24 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: That said, I do question why some seemingly pick and choose what to take from these events, as either an actual threat or as a political statement or display.  The coverage and discussion that surrounds these situations seems somewhat uneven at times.  If you're to truly believe that display was an indication of a potential hanging by one group why would not to believe the same for the others?  Why aren't we spending as much time on these acts as well, as legitmately violent threats?

This is easy to answer for me. The major difference, imho, is that large parts of one political party, very much including its undisputed leader, seemed to back the effort. This does not happen in other instances. Biden does not say we love you to Antifa when they did something like you described.
The constant incitement by repeating an unproven claim of election fraud - a real severe accusation to make with zero evidence - is scary too, of course. And the demoting and censoring of people who have an issue with all that. These are all unmatched in other instances.


---

(06-08-2021, 12:39 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: With the years that have passed, and with me having a cursory understanding of everything that transpired, would someone care to walk me though the differences of calling into question the integrity of the 2020 election and 2016 election, or the Georgia Gubernatorial election in 2018?

I seem to remember months, if not years of coverage on Russian collusion and the idea that the 2016 election was stolen from Hillary Clintion.  I remember not only numerous memebers of the media, but numerous elected officials repeatedly calling into question the legitmacy of Trump's win.  I remember investigations being called for.  I remember half of the county believing that the election was interfered with.

I also remember Stacy Abrams refusing to concede, even a year later.  I remember numerous accusations being made, and them all being completey unproven and ultimately dismissed by a court of law.  This still did not deter her from calling into question the results.  She was even calling herself the Governor after her opponent had been sworn in.

So can someone please explain to be the difference?  Perhaps it's scale.  Maybe the lengths Trump and others have gone to are greater. 

Just two cents. For one, the whole Russia scandal, even if one sees it as overblown, had some very severe basis in fact. Just consider Roger Stone and the publishing of Hillary's emails through wikileaks that apparently was coordinated with him, or that the campaign manager of Trump gave private briefings to a Russian oligarch, or the actual proven Russian influence campaigns, to name just a few very real things. Real things Trump's stolen election narrative lacks.

As for democrats' behaviour, there were some things said I was not fine with and that imho deserve condemnation too. None went as far as to say we demote and censor everyone who does not follow the stolen election line, and of course no actual mob came to hang the Georgia governor.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-08-2021, 12:52 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yup.



This is easy to answer for me. The major difference, imho, is that large parts of one political party, very much including its undisputed leader, seemed to back the effort. This does not happen in other instances. Biden does not say we love you to Antifa when they did something like you described.
The constant incitement by repeating an unproven claim of election fraud - a real severe accusation to make with zero evidence - is scary too, of course. And the demoting and censoring of people who have an issue with all that. These are all unmatched in other instances.

It doesn't?

Fwiw, I'm almost positive these occured at BLM events where Antifa was also most likely present.  Not sure who gets the blame specifically for these so I listed both.  Fwiw, there are countless examples of extremely dangerous rhetoric being shouted through megaphones and cheered.

The democratic party has continued to show strong support for these movements and demonstrations long after incidents like these have occured.  This is before we even get to the corporate support that has remained completely undeterred despite such dangerous displays.

I'm just wondering why we're assuming that one (a gullotine in front of Jeff Bezos house for example, or a gullotine in front of the white house) is merely a display and one is much more, as in proof of a legitimate attempted hanging?

[Mickeypoo]

(06-08-2021, 11:57 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Everyone his own but considering the high level of projection of the people yelling to the steal, I got it like this 


We stole so much in this election that if we get beaten, it is because they cheated more than us.

But to each his own "fake outrages".

I just don't trust people yelling first and yelling louder and longer. 

All I am saying is there are many things that do not add up and no one, as of today, has answered any of those questions.  

I am not saying it was stolen, but I would definitely like to see answers vs getting shouted down as a nut just because I question all the stuff that doesn't add up.  The more people yell and call names combined with no logical answer or any answer at all makes me even more suspicious.

[Mickeypoo]

(06-08-2021, 12:07 PM)hollodero Wrote: Jeez, people were killed. You defend this mob, fine. But don't make a fuzz about me saying they were killing people on their way. They did. And since they brought ACTUAL EFFING GALLOWS, there's not even a debate about intent. They wanted to hang the VP for crying out loud.

Oh and there also was a pipe bomb, but I'm sure that's harmless anyway since it did not go off.



Just to get this straight. You think that calling the last election fair and the results valid is a "left-wing media narrative".

It's also the fact of the matter, and there was zero evidence presented to persuade any single judge or election official otherwise.



So you do believe the election was indeed manipulated and stolen.
In light of this, do you think the Capitol storm was actually warranted? For it sure seems like you do.



Don't play the victim card in advance, or else I call you a snowflake.

I'm not defending anyone who broke the law.  Pipe bombs, rocks, bricks, etc.  You talking about the Capital or Antifa/BLM?

I think calling the election fair and acting like there was not an enormous amount of unexplained weirdness and inconsistencies a left wing media narrative.  Just because judges don't want to hear evidence does not mean something didn't happened.

I believe there are many things that have not been explained by anyone at this point.

I do not condone the Capital riots, but I am not blinded by TDS.  I can see how all sides created this situation.

Victim card for what?  No idea what you are talking about.

[hollodero]

(06-08-2021, 01:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It doesn't?

Nope. The democratic party does not endorse Antifa and censor or demote everyone who doesn't. Biden does not say he loves them, he says all violence is to be condemned. It seems quite obvious to me that he is not responsible for any violent protests in the same sense as Trump is responsible for the insurrection attempt.

Not that everything the democratic party does is fine and noble. There is rhetorics I detest there as well, for sure. But one can't and shouldn't normalize coup attempts through shitty things someone like Maxine Waters said, or something Antifa folks said or did at one of their not so peaceful protests, or by claiming that Antifa belongs to the democrats just as the insurrectionists belong to Trump and hence both sides do it. That is not the case. 

[hollodero]

(06-08-2021, 02:14 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I think calling the election fair and acting like there was not an enormous amount of unexplained weirdness and inconsistencies a left wing media narrative.  Just because judges don't want to hear evidence does not mean something didn't happened.

I really try to grasp this. Are you claiming the judges are in on the steal? Just like those republican officials that called the elections fair?

Sure, even Giuliani claimed in court that his cases are not actually fraud cases, but amazingly not even this is hindering you to claim there was evidence of election fraud that judges chose to ignore because reasons.

(06-08-2021, 02:14 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I do not condone the Capital riots, but I am not blinded by TDS.  I can see how all sides created this situation.

You think democrats and Trump bear equal responsibility for the Capitol storm? That's precious. I'm certain you could do even better though and blame it solely on the left and Don Lemon.

(06-08-2021, 02:14 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Victim card for what?  No idea what you are talking about.

Well, you said you couldn't explain all the election weirdness because people will call you names. That is playing the victim card in advance.
Of course, it also makes your claims difficult to dispute. "There is a lot of weirdness that judges ignore, but I can't tell you what they are for I will get called names if I do." It's a bit cheap. The only point you made is "Biden didn't campaign, I can't imagine him winning, hence it has to be fishy." Which amounts to nothing of any substance really.

[*Nately120*]

(06-08-2021, 01:40 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: All I am saying is there are many things that do not add up and no one, as of today, has answered any of those questions.  

I am not saying it was stolen, but I would definitely like to see answers vs getting shouted down as a nut just because I question all the stuff that doesn't add up.  The more people yell and call names combined with no logical answer or any answer at all makes me even more suspicious.

If the election has been stolen then republicans and the supreme court and our justice system as a whole are very much in on it.  Isn't it just more likely that Trump, a man who has cried "RIGGED" on every election in which he has been involved is just lying? Either Trump is full of it or pretty much everyone else is...life has little truths in it, so we just look at the evidence we have and make the best judgment call we can.

EDIT - Wait a second, how the hell did I get on this topic? Ehh screw it. 2024 is gonna be rigged, too.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-08-2021, 02:22 PM)hollodero Wrote: Nope. The democratic party does not endorse Antifa and censor or demote everyone who doesn't. Biden does not say he loves them, he says all violence is to be condemned. It seems quite obvious to me that he is not responsible for any violent protests in the same sense as Trump is responsible for the insurrection attempt.

Not that everything the democratic party does is fine and noble. There is rhetorics I detest there as well, for sure. But one can't and shouldn't normalize coup attempts through shitty things someone like Maxine Waters said, or something Antifa folks said or did at one of their not so peaceful protests, or by claiming that Antifa belongs to the democrats just as the insurrectionists belong to Trump and hence both sides do it. That is not the case. 

Why did you ignore the BLM part of my post?  Does the democratic party support BLM?

Remember, this all started with me saying that I've seen numerous examples that are similar to the gallows display that you referenced, and questioned why they aren't equally as terrifying.  To which you replied something to the effect of, it is because of the support Donald Trump and party has given to one side and to which the other has not.

BLM puts Trump doll on gullotine directly in front of the White House....



Gullotine right in front of Jeff Bezoz house put up by "protestors"...



BLM with buring flag in front of police station...



Another BLM demonstation in front of the White House...

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-08-2021, 02:22 PM)hollodero Wrote: Nope. The democratic party does not endorse Antifa

This is true.  In fact many of them, Biden especially included, won't even acknowledge that they exist.  They're "just an idea".  An idea I might add that somehow is capable of hitting you upside of your head with a bike lock, throwing concrete milkshakes, and causing billions of dollars in property damage.

Just an idea though.  Nothing to see here.  But hey, at least he doesn't endorse them.  He just ignores they exist or do anything wrong.

[Mickeypoo]

(06-08-2021, 02:33 PM)hollodero Wrote: I really try to grasp this. Are you claiming the judges are in on the steal? Just like those republican officials that called the elections fair?

Sure, even Giuliani claimed in court that his cases are not actually fraud cases, but amazingly not even this is hindering you to claim there was evidence of election fraud that judges chose to ignore because reasons.



You think democrats and Trump bear equal responsibility for the Capitol storm? That's precious. I'm certain you could do even better though and blame it solely on the left and Don Lemon.



Well, you said you couldn't explain all the election weirdness because people will call you names. That is playing the victim card in advance.
Of course, it also makes your claims difficult to dispute. "There is a lot of weirdness that judges ignore, but I can't tell you what they are for I will get called names if I do." It's a bit cheap. The only point you made is "Biden didn't campaign, I can't imagine him winning, hence it has to be fishy." Which amounts to nothing of any substance really.

I think the Dems, Reps, Media, Trump all share a blame.  They were all spewing BS.

Don Lemon.  He is so precious.  The gay black guy of wokeness who stuck his hand down his pants, wiped his ball sweat on his fingers and shoved them up another mans nose at a bar.  Ahhh, one of the faces of CNN.  Gotta love them.

I think there are a lot of questions that have never been answered.  Simple as that.

Dude, just stop.  I work and have a family and have no interest in days of typing only to be called names.  I don't care if you or anyone else call me names, it would just be a giant waste of time on here, so no thanks.  If you think not wanting to waste my time is being a victim then ok.

[*Nately120*]

(06-08-2021, 02:59 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This is true.  In fact many of them, Biden especially included, won't even acknowledge that they exist.  They're "just an idea".  An idea I might add that somehow is capable of hitting you upside of your head with a bike lock, throwing concrete milkshakes, and causing billions of dollars in property damage.

Just an idea though.  Nothing to see here.  But hey, at least he doesn't endorse them.  He just ignores they exist or do anything wrong.

What's he supposed to do, nuke them?  If Biden had power to stop radical factions he'd be on a higher plane of reality, or something.  Er wait, those higher planes tend to create radical factions.  Hmm....

Anyways, I'm just cynically amazed we went from being afraid of the outside world to being our own greatest enemies.  We really stepped in it this time.

[*Nately120*]

(06-08-2021, 03:09 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I think the Dems, Reps, Media, Trump all share a blame.  They were all spewing BS.

You pull this "Everyone sucks!" stuff and then two seconds later you're repeating some right-wing bs soundbyte.  If everyone is spewing BS about stuff then you need to stop looking for someone else to tell you what you see...including me.  Don't listen to me.  This is tricky. 

[hollodero]

(06-08-2021, 02:54 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Why did you ignore the BLM part of my post?  Does the democratic party support BLM?

Well, here is my problem with that. BLM is not that easily categorized as a violent group. BLM comes with all kinds of approaches, from the peaceful to the not so peaceful. Only focusing on the not so peaceful part, to me, is like calling Trump supporters violent because some Trump supporters stormed the Capitol. Would be unfair, wouldn't it.

And sure, some democrats support BLM. I know of none though that support violence in the name of BLM. And I'm sorry, this just is a main difference to me.

That self-declared BLM members or Antifa erected gallows at some protests, well, I never doubted that in the first place.

(06-08-2021, 02:54 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Remember, this all started with me saying that I've seen numerous examples that are similar to the gallows display that you referenced, and questioned why they aren't equally as terrifying.  To which you replied something to the effect of, it is because of the support Donald Trump and party has given to one side and to which the other has not.

Yeah, again, I have not seen a leading democrat that endorsed or even incited violent displays like these. In that light, yes you grasped my point correctly.
For sure, that the specific insurrection attempt took place at the Capitol, included its storming and folks actually looking for Nancy and others in the Capitol halls, with the clear intent of hindering the confirmation of the election results, adds to the more terrifying picture as well. This is not quite the same as BLM does, regarding the actual attempt to overthrow democracy. BLM did not launch an actual coup attempt, these folks at the Capitol, however, sure went for exactly that.

(06-08-2021, 02:59 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This is true.  In fact many of them, Biden especially included, won't even acknowledge that they exist.  They're "just an idea".  An idea I might add that somehow is capable of hitting you upside of your head with a bike lock, throwing concrete milkshakes, and causing billions of dollars in property damage.

Just an idea though.  Nothing to see here.  But hey, at least he doesn't endorse them.  He just ignores they exist or do anything wrong.

Biden repeated what the FBI director said. He called Antifa an idea in contrast to being an organization with structures and a head. Antifa has none of these things, it is a political movement and I see nothing wrong with repeating that FBI assessment. It's not an attempt to downplay it.

He also rebuffed all violence coming from them or BLM many times. Could he be more active in fighting violent Antifa members, I don't know, I wouldn't really know how. The Trump admin could not stop the protests, I didn't expect Biden to. Antifa does not listen to him either.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-08-2021, 03:10 PM)Nately120 Wrote: What's he supposed to do, nuke them?  If Biden had power to stop radical factions he'd be on a higher plane of reality, or something.  Er wait, those higher planes tend to create radical factions.  Hmm....

Anyways, I'm just cynically amazed we went from being afraid of the outside world to being our own greatest enemies.  We really stepped in it this time.

Is this a serious question?

Step 1: Acknowldedge they exist.

Step 2: Denounce them.  Call them out.  Bring attention to the issue.

Step 3: Work on some semblence of plan to discourage this behavior, even if it's as simple as generating support within his own party to present a unified stance that the actions of these groups are wrong and will not be tolerated.

Will it work, will it stop it completely in tracks?  Doubtful.  But surely it's better than characterizing it as nothing more than an idea, no?  Maybe, just maybe, if more politicans would take a hard stance against this group it would help diminish some of the lawlessness we've seen.

Call me crazy, but I think there's answers that lie in between doing nothing and "nuking them".

[*Nately120*]

(06-08-2021, 03:22 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Is this a serious question?

Step 1: Ackowldedge they exist.

Step 2: Denounce them.  Call them out.  Bring attention to the issue.

Step 3: Work on some semblence of plan to discourage this behavior, even if it's as simple as generating support within his own party to present a unified stance that the actions of these groups are wrong and will not be tolerated.

Will it work, will it stop it completely in tracks?  Doubtful.  But surely it's better than characterizing it as nothing more than an idea, no?  Maybe, just maybe, if more politicans would take a hard stance against this group it would help diminish some of the lawlessness we've seen.

Call me crazy, but I think there's answers that lie between doing nothing and "nuking them".

I feel like Biden did this sort of thing during the debate, didn't he?  I don't actually have my finger on the pulse of all this stuff but are the crazy leftist mobs saying "Biden sent us!" or "Biden told us to do this?"  Maybe they are.  But we've seen time and time again even when pundits or politicians tell people to do stuff like this we dismiss their assertions that they are following orders and throw them in prison.

Any sane person looks at how quickly the powers that be abandon their henchmen when they get caught and stops following orders of the untouchable classes.  We've seen how effective a leader saying "Go home, we love you" works after he's riled up the base.  This is prime time for a democrats to make their move by denouncing this stuff, but if they aren't doing it then I guess voters/people don't want it.

I'm a cynic, so maybe if Biden did declare these people terrorists and gave them his best "disappointed television grandpa" speech they'd disperse, but I ain't holding my breath. People are thriving on this stuff, at least people who aren't legimately suffering because of it. Fight amongst yourselves and give the news and the rich politicians someone to use to build support. Same as it ever was? Maybe it's worse now. Damn long haired hippies were the true enemies of Americans during Vietnam, they said.

[hollodero]

(06-08-2021, 03:09 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I think the Dems, Reps, Media, Trump all share a blame.  They were all spewing BS.

This is an amazing take. Trump members storm the Capitol after Trump told them that the election was rigged, that they need to to go there and fight, he tells them that he actually loves them after said fight; and what do you do, blame everyone equally. How this makes sense is beyond me.

(06-08-2021, 03:09 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I think there are a lot of questions that have never been answered.  Simple as that.

Dude, just stop.  I work and have a family and have no interest in days of typing only to be called names.  I don't care if you or anyone else call me names, it would just be a giant waste of time on here, so no thanks.  If you think not wanting to waste my time is being a victim then ok.

i did not call you names, not now, not in the past. I will say again that this is real cheap though, going in a debate with wild claims you refuse to lay out or back up in any way because you have a family.
And of course you slip into a victim role. Poor you would get called names by the nasty folks. Thats as victim-role-y as it gets.

[Mickeypoo]

(06-08-2021, 03:36 PM)hollodero Wrote: This is an amazing take. Trump members storm the Capitol after Trump told them that the election was rigged, that they need to to go there and fight, he tells them that he actually loves them after said fight; and what do you do, blame everyone equally. How this makes sense is beyond me.



i did not call you names, not now, not in the past. I will say again that this is real cheap though, going in a debate with wild claims you refuse to lay out or back up in any way because you have a family.
And of course you slip into a victim role. Poor you would get called names by the nasty folks. Thats as victim-role-y as it gets.

It doesn't make sense to you because you are looking at it in a vacuum.  I am looking at it from the last 4.5 years of hate spewing from both sides that led up to this.

I never said you called me names.

Listen, this thread is not about the election.  I already know how 90+% of this board feels and leans.  I am not wasting my time "debating" the election.  I also did not make "wild claims" about anything.  I said, imo, there was a lot of weirdness and a bunch of inconsistencies that have never been answered.

[*Nately120*]

(06-08-2021, 03:44 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I already know how 90+% of this board feels and leans. 

Jo Jorgensen won because both parties rigged it against her. 

[BigPapaKain]

(06-08-2021, 11:53 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I just looked this up.  And I'm not sure if I can find the example you just provided.

I read about someone throwing a fire extinguisher at a group of cops, which is dispicable behavior, no doubt.  It hit 3 cops and one was treated at the hospital and was later released.  But your post makes it sound like someone was beaten to death with one.  That's the one I couldn't find.  Do you have a link?

Fwiw, I'm not condoning the behavior at all.  That entire scene was a shit-show and should have never happened.  It was a disagrace.  But I do think facts are important, and I think the event stands on it's own as being very bad.  There should be no need to exaggerate what occurred.

I only read the reports the day after which said he died of injuries caused by blunt force trauma. Apparently the ME later determined that was a lie.

You'll excuse me for not following every horrifying thing. I've got enough things that give me down feelings.

[*Nately120*]

(06-08-2021, 02:59 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This is true.  In fact many of them, Biden especially included, won't even acknowledge that they exist.  They're "just an idea".  An idea I might add that somehow is capable of hitting you upside of your head with a bike lock, throwing concrete milkshakes, and causing billions of dollars in property damage.

Just an idea though.  Nothing to see here.  But hey, at least he doesn't endorse them.  He just ignores they exist or do anything wrong.

But seriously, wasn't there something in that first insane debate where they were talking about the extremists on "each of their sides" and Trump did his stand by thing and Biden said something that led Trump to look legitimately pleased and replied "You just lost your radical base!" or something to that effect.

I know when asked about violence of this nature Biden has said that he condemns violence no matter who is doing it.  So that could be seen as a flimsy talking point, but the guy has been at least pressed on the matter and given what should be the bog-standard answer, at least.