Khashoggi, Kushner, Trump

[Dill]

Can't believe no one has started a thread on this. Perhaps it has been introduced on another and I've missed it.

Turkish Officials Say Khashoggi Was Killed on Order of Saudi Leadership
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/world/europe/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html?action=click&module=inline&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

Lured to the Saudi Embassy, tortured and killed, body chopped up and "disappeared"? (If the Turks are to be beleived.)

Anyway, the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi is startling and not without implications for U.S.-Saudi relations.

It is possible that MBS is a "reformer" who doesn't shy from Saddam-style repression of the press, regardless of who his friends are.

It could also be that after plentiful signals that the U.S. does not interfere in its friends' internal matters--as did that do-good busybody Obama--and after plentiful signals that contracts "trump" everything else, the Prince believed he had a green light from the U.S. to off an "enemy of the people."

Khashoggi’s Disappearance Puts Kushner’s Bet on Saudi Crown Prince at Risk
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/us/politics/jamal-khashoggi-disappearance-kushner.html

Mr. Kushner championed Prince Mohammed, 33, when the prince was jockeying to be his father’s heir; had dinner with him in Washington and Riyadh, the Saudi capital; promoted a $110 billion weapons sale to his military; and once even hoped that the future king would put a Saudi stamp of approval on his Israeli-Palestinian peace plan.

[MSB] may be less the risk-taking reformer the Trump family eagerly embraced than a reckless, untested ruler, who critics say has been emboldened by his ties to the Trumps to take heavy-handed actions at home and abroad.

American intelligence agencies have collected communications intercepts of Saudi officials discussing a plan to lure Mr. Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia from his home in Virginia and then detain him, according to a former senior American official.

Saudi Crown Prince Boasted That Jared Kushner Was “In His Pocket”
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman/

The Donald doesn't think this flap should interfere with the claimed 110 billinion arms deal.
5 key moments in the Jared Kushner-Saudi Prince Mohammed bromance
https://www.jta.org/2018/10/12/news-opinion/5-key-moments-in-the-jared-kushner-saudi-prince-mohammed-bromance

“I don’t like stopping massive amounts of money that’s being poured into our country on — I know they’re talking about different kinds of sanctions,” he said Thursday, referring to moves in Congress to sanction Saudi Arabia, “but they’re spending $110 billion on military equipment and on things that create jobs, like jobs and others, for this country.”

[GMDino]

(10-12-2018, 09:09 PM)Dill Wrote: Can't believe no one has started a thread on this. Perhaps it has been introduced on another and I've missed it.

Turkish Officials Say Khashoggi Was Killed on Order of Saudi Leadership
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/world/europe/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html?action=click&module=inline&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

Lured to the Saudi Embassy, tortured and killed, body chopped up and "disappeared"?  (If the Turks are to be beleived.)  

Anyway, the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi is startling and not without implications for U.S.-Saudi relations.

It is possible that MBS is a "reformer" who doesn't shy from Saddam-style repression of the press, regardless of who his friends are.

It could also be that after plentiful signals that the U.S. does not interfere in its friends' internal matters--as did that do-good busybody Obama--and after plentiful signals that contracts "trump" everything else, the Prince believed he had a green light from the U.S. to off an "enemy of the people."

Khashoggi’s Disappearance Puts Kushner’s Bet on Saudi Crown Prince at Risk
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/us/politics/jamal-khashoggi-disappearance-kushner.html

Mr. Kushner championed Prince Mohammed, 33, when the prince was jockeying to be his father’s heir; had dinner with him in Washington and Riyadh, the Saudi capital; promoted a $110 billion weapons sale to his military; and once even hoped that the future king would put a Saudi stamp of approval on his Israeli-Palestinian peace plan.

[MSB] may be less the risk-taking reformer the Trump family eagerly embraced than a reckless, untested ruler, who critics say has been emboldened by his ties to the Trumps to take heavy-handed actions at home and abroad.

American intelligence agencies have collected communications intercepts of Saudi officials discussing a plan to lure Mr. Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia from his home in Virginia and then detain him, according to a former senior American official.

Saudi Crown Prince Boasted That Jared Kushner Was “In His Pocket”
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman/

The Donald doesn't think this flap should interfere with the claimed 110 billinion arms deal.
5 key moments in the Jared Kushner-Saudi Prince Mohammed bromance
https://www.jta.org/2018/10/12/news-opinion/5-key-moments-in-the-jared-kushner-saudi-prince-mohammed-bromance

“I don’t like stopping massive amounts of money that’s being poured into our country on — I know they’re talking about different kinds of sanctions,” he said Thursday, referring to moves in Congress to sanction Saudi Arabia, “but they’re spending $110 billion on military equipment and on things that create jobs, like jobs and others, for this country.”

I hadn't heard any connection to Kushner but I did hear Trump say he's worried they will take their money elsewhere if he does too much.

Which kind of flies in the face of the recent comments about how Trump has "proven to the world that he backs up his threats".

[fredtoast]

The progressive Prince Mohammed was supposed to be the key piece of Kushners plan to bring peace to the middle east.

[Dill]

(10-12-2018, 09:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: I hadn't heard any connection to Kushner but I did hear Trump say he's worried they will take their money elsewhere if he does too much.

Which kind of flies in the face of the recent comments about how Trump has "proven to the world that he backs up his threats".

Well they can't "take their money elsewhere."  Buying weapons systems above the level of small arms is not like shopping for groceries.

One thing that crippled the Iranian Army in the '80s was their inability to shift to Soviet or Chinese weapons, after their heavy investment in U.S. weapons.

How many years would it take the Saudi's to shift to Chinese or Russian jets and tanks?  And untested in battle at that? 

[fredtoast]

Saudi Arabia and Israel were supposed to get along just because they are both enemies of Iran.

Trump won't do anything to Saudi Arabia for the same reason.

[GMDino]

(10-12-2018, 09:49 PM)Dill Wrote: Well they can't "take their money elsewhere."  Buying weapons systems above the level of small arms is not like shopping for groceries.

One thing that crippled the Iranian Army in the '80s was their inability to shift to Soviet or Chinese weapons, after their heavy investment in U.S. weapons.

How many years would it take the Saudi's to shift to Chinese or Russian jets and tanks?  And untested in battle at that? 

I'll never be accused of saying that Trump UNDERSTOOD what he was talking about...just that he said it.  

[*michaelsean*]

Kushner is awesome. Seems every time I read his name something really great is happening.

[Dill]

The latest--"Rogue Killers" may have killed Kashoggi.

In Shifting Story, Saudi Arabia May Admit Dissident Journalist Was Killed
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/us/politics/trump-saudi-king-journalist-khashoggi.html

WASHINGTON — Saudi Arabia was preparing an alternative explanation of the fate of a dissident journalist on Monday, saying he died at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul two weeks ago in an interrogation gone wrong, according to a person familiar with the kingdom’s plans. In Washington, President Trump echoed the possibility that Jamal Khashoggi was the victim of “rogue killers.”

The shifting story line defied earlier details that have emerged in the case, including signs that he was murdered and dismembered. Among other things, Turkish officials have said, an autopsy specialist carrying a bone saw was among 15 Saudi operatives who flew in and out of Istanbul the day Mr. Khashoggi disappeared.

The new explanation, whatever its truth, seemed intended to ease the political crisis that Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance has created for Saudi Arabia. The new story could also defuse some criticism of the Trump administration, which has refused to back down from billions of dollars in weapons sales to the kingdom and as of Monday was still planning to attend a glittering Saudi investment forum next week.

But the theory was widely dismissed among Mr. Khashoggi’s friends, human rights advocates and some on Capitol Hill, who noted that Saudi officials had denied his death for two weeks — including assertions by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman last week and the king himself on Monday.

“Been hearing the ridiculous ‘rogue killers’ theory was where the Saudis would go with this,” Senator Christopher S. Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, wrote in a Twitter post. “Absolutely extraordinary they were able to enlist the President of the United States as their PR agent to float it.”
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In his 60 minute interview with Leslie Stahl, Trump carried forward the "rogue killers" hypothesis, and stated that he had spoken to the all-but-deposed Saudi King how plausibly claimed to know nothing about the killing--now that MSB is actually running the country.

I am curious as to what forum members think of this--a US non-citizen resident and WaPo journalist is killed in the Saudi embassy, and our president reminds us of our business ties with the Kingdom. And that Kashoggi was not a U.S. citizen.

Does this fit with tolerance/approval of other authoritarian regimes?

[CKwi88]

The Saudis and the president would have us believe that a group of rouge killers went into an embassy, interrogated, tortured and killed a man, then removed his body, all without the approval/knowledge of their government?

At least when Obama bowed he was facing the Saudi king.

[jj22]

This is where Trumps financial deals with these countries hurt the interests of Americans. Trump and his family will let the Saudi's get away with this because the Saudi's own them. And Trump is likely scared to death that one of them will end up like Khashoggi.

They aren't thinking about the interest of the Nation, they are thinking about the interest of their family.

That's why you see him covering for them like he does Russia (it was a rogue killer/it was China who attacked Hillary and America).

[Dill]

(10-16-2018, 11:33 AM)jj22 Wrote: This is where Trumps financial deals with these countries hurt the interests of Americans. Trump and his family will let the Saudi's get away with this because the Saudi's own them. And Trump is likely scared to death that one of them will end up like Khashoggi.

They aren't thinking about the interest of the Nation, they are thinking about the interest of their family.

Trump will say he doesn't have any hotels in Riyadh. Its about jobs in the defense industry.

Like a bad cop taking a mob payoff, we will look the other way if the price is right.

[*bfine32*]

In an attempt to make this less about Trump and more about the actual matter, it is very interesting. There's little doubt in my mind that this dude met his maker in that embassy. The best MSB could do would be to condemn it and take the heads (figuratively) of a few underlings at the embassy.

[fredtoast]

(10-16-2018, 12:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: In an attempt to make this less about Trump and more about the actual matter, it is very interesting. 

Foreign affairs is the one area where the President is supposed to have some actual power.  So, for us U.S. citizens, the actual matter is about how Trump handles this.

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2018, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Foreign affairs is the one area where the President is supposed to have some actual power.  So, for us U.S. citizens, the actual matter is about how Trump handles this.

Hey I never claimed I would be successful in doing so. Just thought the actual issue should be discussed. But I got it. The actual issue is how Trump handles it.

[Yojimbo]

New information coming from Turkey. Just prior to allowing Turkish investigators into the consulate, the Saudis had a massive cleaning and painting crew brought in. That doesn’t look suspicious at all...

https://amp.thisisinsider.com/turkeys-erdogan-says-saudi-consulate-freshly-painted-after-khashoggi-case-trump-pompeo-2018-10

[ballsofsteel]

Kushner's father is a convicted felon. Like father, like son.

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2018, 04:50 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: New information coming from Turkey. Just prior to allowing Turkish investigators into the consulate, the Saudis had a massive cleaning and painting crew brought in. That doesn’t look suspicious at all...

https://amp.thisisinsider.com/turkeys-erdogan-says-saudi-consulate-freshly-painted-after-khashoggi-case-trump-pompeo-2018-10

Linsey Graham weighed in on this today and stated we should "sanction the hell" out of SA. As I said MSB's only hope is to find a fall guy. 

[Dill]

(10-16-2018, 02:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hey I never claimed I would be successful in doing so. Just thought the actual issue should be discussed. But I got it. The actual issue is how Trump handles it.

Yes. The president who let the dogs out in in the Middle East and calls the press the "enemy of the people."
How does he handle this international crisis, the killing of a U.S. based journalist by SA, after making SA the linchpin of his Middle Eastern policy?

Not only is it very odd that one country would kill a journalist in its embassy, it is also VERY UNUSUAL that another would call it out. In doing so Turkey has likely exposed critical intel sources, but weighed its options and decided the challenge to SA was worth it.

Suddenly Trump is faced with what some are calling the most important foreign policy decision of his term so far.

But . . . President Trump compares condemnation of Saudi Arabia in disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi to reactions to sexual assault accusations against Brett Kavanaugh
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-news-trump-khashoggi-kavanuagh-saudi-arabia-20181016-story.html

Trump joins Saudi Arabia’s Khashoggi coverup
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Trump slams mounting criticism of Saudi Arabia as a case of ‘guilty until proven innocent’
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/16/trump-says-saudi-crown-prince-totally-denied-any-knowledge-of-what-happened-to-journalist-khashoggi.html

Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., a Trump ally, told reporters Tuesday that, “I believe this man was murdered.”

“I don’t think it was a rogue event. Things like that are not rogue,” Graham said. “It seems to be a lot of planning went into it. The crown prince is very schizophrenic; one minute he’s talking about a new Saudi Arabia, and the next minute he’s throwing half his family in jail.”
Graham said that the future of American and Saudi relations on the heels of the incident is “up to the Saudis.”
“I don’t expect to be doing business as usual,” he said. “This is in your face, this is a lack of respect for our relationship, this is an affront to every value we embrace, extra-judicial killing, killing somebody for being a critic. Freedom of the press means a lot to us here in the United States.”

Congress Is Forcing a Confrontation With Saudi Arabia
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/10/corker-menendez-salman-saudi-arabia-khashoggi-turkey/572752/

Corker, Menendez, Graham, Leahy Letter Triggers Global Magnitsky Investigation Into Disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi
https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/chair/release/corker-menendez-graham-leahy-letter-triggers-global-magnitsky-investigation-into-disappearance-of-jamal-khashoggi

How will Republican Congressmen react if Trump pushes back against them, and reduces an international human rights issue to "American jobs"?  


 

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2018, 07:44 PM)Dill Wrote: Yes. The president who let the dogs out in in the Middle East and calls the press the "enemy of the people."
How does he handle this international crisis, the killing of a U.S. based journalist by SA, after making SA the linchpin of his Middle Eastern policy?

Not only is it very odd that one country would kill a journalist in its embassy, it is also VERY UNUSUAL that another would call it out. In doing so Turkey has likely exposed critical intel sources, but weighed its options and decided the challenge to SA was worth it.

Suddenly Trump is faced with what some are calling the most important foreign policy decision of his term so far.

But . . . President Trump compares condemnation of Saudi Arabia in disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi to reactions to sexual assault accusations against Brett Kavanaugh
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-news-trump-khashoggi-kavanuagh-saudi-arabia-20181016-story.html

Trump joins Saudi Arabia’s Khashoggi coverup
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Trump slams mounting criticism of Saudi Arabia as a case of ‘guilty until proven innocent’
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/16/trump-says-saudi-crown-prince-totally-denied-any-knowledge-of-what-happened-to-journalist-khashoggi.html

Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., a Trump ally, told reporters Tuesday that, “I believe this man was murdered.”

“I don’t think it was a rogue event. Things like that are not rogue,” Graham said. “It seems to be a lot of planning went into it. The crown prince is very schizophrenic; one minute he’s talking about a new Saudi Arabia, and the next minute he’s throwing half his family in jail.”
Graham said that the future of American and Saudi relations on the heels of the incident is “up to the Saudis.”
“I don’t expect to be doing business as usual,” he said. “This is in your face, this is a lack of respect for our relationship, this is an affront to every value we embrace, extra-judicial killing, killing somebody for being a critic. Freedom of the press means a lot to us here in the United States.”

Congress Is Forcing a Confrontation With Saudi Arabia
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/10/corker-menendez-salman-saudi-arabia-khashoggi-turkey/572752/

Corker, Menendez, Graham, Leahy Letter Triggers Global Magnitsky Investigation Into Disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi
https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/chair/release/corker-menendez-graham-leahy-letter-triggers-global-magnitsky-investigation-into-disappearance-of-jamal-khashoggi

How will Republican Congressmen react if Trump pushes back against them, and reduces an international human rights issue to "American jobs"?  


 

I have already freely admitted that I was mistaken in thinking we could have a rational discussion about the actual event. 

[Goalpost]

(10-16-2018, 08:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have already freely admitted that I was mistaken in thinking we could have a rational discussion about the actual event. 

The media is not doing a very good job of it.  I think the US intel of it is still behind closed doors.  My understanding is that Khashoggi might have a past with the Muslin Brotherhood.  The Muslim Brotherhood hates western influence.  And the Saudi's were giving it a go toward that direction. So we have a Washington Post reporter with maybe a precarious association