Khashoggi, Kushner, Trump

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-12-2018, 09:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The progressive Prince Mohammed was supposed to be the key piece of Kushners plan to bring peace to the middle east.

Which apparently worked about as well as everything else the US does in the Middle East.

You'd think one of these days we'd eventually learn our lesson and just leave the ME the F alone.




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(Though admittedly, I think Iraq has actually turned out alright. Kicked IS out of their country, their military seems to be able to mostly hold their own in operations, they have had democracy/elections for 13 years now. Knock on wood, but I think in the future we'll be able to look at Iraq as the only bright spot of all that conflict over there.... or it'll all collapse after a contentious election and kick me right in my optimistic balls.)

[GMDino]

(10-23-2018, 12:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Which apparently worked about as well as everything else the US does in the Middle East.

You'd think one of these days we'd eventually learn our lesson and just leave the ME the F alone.




- - - - - - - - -
(Though admittedly, I think Iraq has actually turned out alright. Kicked IS out of their country, have had democracy/elections for 13 years now. Knock on wood, but I think in the future we'll be able to look at Iraq as the only bright spot of all that conflict over there.... or it'll all collapse after a contentious election and kick me right in my optimistic balls.)

We'll never learn...lol.

They've been fighting as long as people have been there.  But we want to be buddy buddy thank tot hat sweet oil they all have! 

[Dill]

(10-23-2018, 12:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Which apparently worked about as well as everything else the US does in the Middle East.

You'd think one of these days we'd eventually learn our lesson and just leave the ME the F alone.

- - - - - - - - -
(Though admittedly, I think Iraq has actually turned out alright. Kicked IS out of their country, their military seems to be able to mostly hold their own in operations, they have had democracy/elections for 13 years now. Knock on wood, but I think in the future we'll be able to look at Iraq as the only bright spot of all that conflict over there.... or it'll all collapse after a contentious election and kick me right in my optimistic balls.)

Iraq cost 4,500 American lives and 100,000+ Iraqi. 30,000 Americans are permanently inured. The total cost from all that may be 3 trillion.The primary counterweight to IRan is gone. Before the invasion, Iraq was contained for about 1 billion a year. No American lives lost.

The current government is hardly a democracy, and is mostly in Iran's pocket. Northern Iraq is almost its own Kurdish state. That is why a few thousand ISIS fighters could burn through 30,000 Iraqi soldiers, who had no interest in defending their government. Still don't.

Iraq, after a totally unnecessary war, is still a long ways from "alright."

The U.S. has had some notable successes in the Middle East (I.e., Camp David) when Peace and human rights were the centerpiece of policy. The "problems" people always refer to are the result of overturning democracies and supporting dictators.  Or just breaking states with no plan for the day after.

One lesson could be taken from this--base foreign policy on doing the right thing; stop backing dictators.
Instead people throw up their hands and say "bombing doesn't work. They just won't listen. Just get out."

But leaving the Middle East alone really isn't an option. U.S. allies who constitute U.S. markets need the oil. Massive world trade goes through the region. and Broken states mean more 9/11s.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-23-2018, 12:34 AM)GMDino Wrote: We'll never learn...lol.

They've been fighting as long as people have been there.  But we want to be buddy buddy thank tot hat sweet oil they all have! 

Actually, you might be surprised.

Sources of US Oil:
#1 America
#2 Canada
#3 Saudi Arabia
#4 Venezuela
#5 Mexico

The US gets more oil from Canada than the entirety of OPEC (which includes Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Kuwait/Venezuela/UAE/Qatar/+more) combined, by a hefty amount.


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The US actually *exports* more crude oil than they import from Saudi Arabia.

You know who really needs ME oil? China and India.

[ballsofsteel]

Itsn't it all about money? Wars are gigantic sources of income for the super rich money changers.

[ballsofsteel]

How can the Trump administration be unbiased and expected to do the right thing when it comes to SA when Trump and Kushner have so many personal financial interest tied to SA ?
Answer: they can't.

How can the Trump administration be unbiased and expected to do the right thing when it comes to Russia when Trump and Kushner have so many personal financial interest tied to Russia ?

Answer: they can't.

Talk about conflict of interest.

[GMDino]

(10-23-2018, 01:00 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Actually, you might be surprised.

Sources of US Oil:
#1 America
#2 Canada
#3 Saudi Arabia
#4 Venezuela
#5 Mexico

The US gets more oil from Canada than the entirety of OPEC (which includes Saudi Arabia/Iraq/Kuwait/Venezuela/UAE/Qatar/+more) combined, by a hefty amount.


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The US actually *exports* more crude oil than they import from Saudi Arabia.

You know who really needs ME oil? China and India.

I've seen those charts before and sometimes I do forget that Canada (those one who burned down the WH and treat us very unfairly) is on top of that list).  Perhaps it's to keep China and India from getting any more oil then?  Or its the amount of reserves they still have versus Canada and even ourselves?

Even with that it makes us look even more foolish.

[GMDino]

[Belsnickel]

(10-23-2018, 06:53 AM)ballsofsteel Wrote: Itsn't it all about money? Wars are gigantic sources of income for the super rich money changers.

Well, that's the root of all of it. Our constant state of war is an excuse to pump money into a defense budget that drives the discretionary spending. We have an economy that requires our government run a 4-5% budget deficit to have 2% GDP growth per annum. The bloated defense budget and the payments it makes to the military industrial complex fuels that like no other.

[fredtoast]

(10-23-2018, 12:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Which apparently worked about as well as everything else the US does in the Middle East.

You'd think one of these days we'd eventually learn our lesson and just leave the ME the F alone.

(10-23-2018, 12:34 AM)GMDino Wrote: We'll never learn...lol.

They've been fighting as long as people have been there.  But we want to be buddy buddy thank tot hat sweet oil they all have! 

Nothing we can do, diplomacy, bombs, sanctions, financial aid, etc., etc., will bring peace to the middle east as long as their governments are tied to their religions.

Until they have more secular governments there will be no peace in the Middle East.

[fredtoast]

(10-23-2018, 08:48 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, that's the root of all of it. Our constant state of war is an excuse to pump money into a defense budget that drives the discretionary spending. We have an economy that requires our government run a 4-5% budget deficit to have 2% GDP growth per annum. The bloated defense budget and the payments it makes to the military industrial complex fuels that like no other.

[Belsnickel]

They have found his body parts in the garden at the Saudi counsul's home.

[*bfine32*]

(10-23-2018, 01:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They have found his body parts in the garden at the Saudi counsul's home.

All in one piece? 

[Belsnickel]

(10-23-2018, 01:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: All in one piece? 

No, my understanding is he was in multiple pieces and his face was disfigured. I saw a couple of sketchy news orgs reporting it, but when I find a good source I will post.

Here is where all reports are pointing as the source of the claim: https://news.sky.com/story/sky-sources-jamal-khashoggis-body-parts-found-11533202

[Arturo Bandini]

Crazy people ...

[BmorePat87]

Trump released an official statement today defending the necessity of the US and Saudi relationship by pointing out how bad Iran is and how good Saudia Arabia is. He said no actions will be taken against Saudia Arabia because we don't know if they were behind it and may never know if they were behind it, but they're a "spectacular ally". Some "foolishly" want to stop an arms deal with Saudia Arabia, but they'd just buy the weapons somewhere else.

[BmorePat87]

Four turkeys were pardoned today by Trump and one Turkey was slighted.

[Dill]

(11-20-2018, 04:14 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Four turkeys were pardoned today by Trump and one Turkey was slighted.

[Dill]

(11-20-2018, 04:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Trump released an official statement today defending the necessity of the US and Saudi relationship by pointing out how bad Iran is and how good Saudia Arabia is. He said no actions will be taken against Saudia Arabia because we don't know if they were behind it and may never know if they were behind it, but they're a "spectacular ally". Some "foolishly" want to stop an arms deal with Saudia Arabia, but they'd just buy the weapons somewhere else.

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say that Trump is challenge for the right wing rage machine. 

It is analogous to Trump's choice of Putin's word over his own CIA. 

But it is also worse, in that the foremost diplomatic representative of the U.S. and the "free world" has chosen to look away from a murder because it would hurt business if we took that sort of thing too seriously.

10 times worse if, as reported, Trump wants to render legal U.S. resident Fethullah Gulen to Turkey in exchange for backing off MBS.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-real-reason-the-us-wants-to-placate-turkey-over-jamal-khashoggi

NBC News reports that President Trump is considering expelling the U.S. resident and Turkish dissident, Fethullah Gulen, in return for Turkey reducing its pressure on Saudi Arabia over the murder of Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi.
But what's really going on here is that the U.S. wants Turkey to avoid directly accusing Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of ordering Khashoggi's killing.

I hate Fox but will certainly be watching tonight to see how much division there is among the commentators about this. Trump's public ethical lapses, as representative of the U.S., are something much worse than what the RWRM accused the Clinton's of always getting away with behind the scenes because the MSM would not report it or the Clinton's hid it so well.

[GMDino]

(11-20-2018, 04:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Trump released an official statement today defending the necessity of the US and Saudi relationship by pointing out how bad Iran is and how good Saudia Arabia is. He said no actions will be taken against Saudia Arabia because we don't know if they were behind it and may never know if they were behind it, but they're a "spectacular ally". Some "foolishly" want to stop an arms deal with Saudia Arabia, but they'd just buy the weapons somewhere else.

(11-20-2018, 04:24 PM)Dill Wrote: This is the sort of thing I mean when I say that Trump is challenge for the right wing rage machine. 

It is analogous to Trump's choice of Putin's word over his own CIA. 

But it is also worse, in that the foremost diplomatic representative of the U.S. and the "free world" has chosen to look away from a murder because it would hurt business if we took that sort of thing too seriously.

10 times worse if, as reported, Trump wants to render legal U.S. resident Fethullah Gulen to Turkey in exchange for backing off MBS.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-real-reason-the-us-wants-to-placate-turkey-over-jamal-khashoggi

NBC News reports that President Trump is considering expelling the U.S. resident and Turkish dissident, Fethullah Gulen, in return for Turkey reducing its pressure on Saudi Arabia over the murder of Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi.
But what's really going on here is that the U.S. wants Turkey to avoid directly accusing Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of ordering Khashoggi's killing.

I hate Fox but will certainly be watching tonight to see how much division there is among the commentators about this. Trump's public ethical lapses, as representative of the U.S., are something much worse than what the RWRM accused the Clinton's of always getting away with behind the scenes because the MSM would not report it or the Clinton's hid it so well.

Cue his supporters who say he doesn't need to understand "how things work."