Kim/Trump Summit Disaster

[Vas Deferens]

(02-28-2019, 11:38 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Did the guy once again disavow his own intel to trust a well known dictator ?

WTF is wrong with a guy who insult his allies on daily basis to aknowledge his enemies ?

he got pissed on in front of a camera.  thats whats wrong with him.

[Belsnickel]

(02-28-2019, 12:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd love for someone to point out how it's different other than "muh feels".  No one who didn't support them supports them now and vice versa.  N. Korea is exactly what it's been for the past seventy years, a useful distraction for Russia/USSR and a buffer zone between China and US influence.  That's all it will ever be unless it makes radical changes.

Again, foreign policy not being my bag it is difficult for me to get into the weeds on this. What I do know is that in the geopolitical arena there are a lot of intangibles and small things that can make big differences in the long run. What you're talking about are big changes that would occur, but that's not where the real change happens. Those small things and the intangibles work in the background and eventually lead to larger things. They were discussing a US diplomatic presence in Pyongyang. Would that not be a rather large thing? That doesn't happen without lots of smaller things changing in the background.

[jj22]

"silly" is all they can say when they know it's the truth. But carry on acting like Obama fell in love with Kim, and met with him twice and got nothing out of it etc....

Ignore Trump who even said how close we were to war with Kim under Obama. Yea ignore all that to try to claim Trump (now is no different then Obama in relations to Kim) hasn't done anything different to elevate Kim on the world stage then Obama.

It just doesn't make much sense given what we know and the info that is out there.

But yea, Obama was in love with the guy. He just never expressed it openly and defended Kim so vigorously like Trump. That's the talking points being spread around Trump world?

I'll leave Trump supporters alone, because this is very embarrassing for them, but they have no choice but to try to make excuses for it.

[BmorePat87]

(02-28-2019, 12:06 PM)jj22 Wrote: That's not true. Kim has the full support and defense of the American President (supposedly the leader of the free world). This is unprecedented. Kim is now held in higher standards then any of our WWI and WWII allies as well as many of the nations that stood with us against Iraq and Afghanistan. You can't claim it was like that under Obama who Trump claims was on the verge of blowing him off the map.

If Trump is a legitimate president then he's made Kim the 3rd most powerful leader of the world (Putin is 1st), and that is what Kim wanted. To be legitimized in that way.

This is a good point. Kim is being afforded praise and honor by the "Leader of the Free World" that many of our allies have not been given under this presidency. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-28-2019, 12:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Again, foreign policy not being my bag it is difficult for me to get into the weeds on this. What I do know is that in the geopolitical arena there are a lot of intangibles and small things that can make big differences in the long run. What you're talking about are big changes that would occur, but that's not where the real change happens. Those small things and the intangibles work in the background and eventually lead to larger things. They were discussing a US diplomatic presence in Pyongyang. Would that not be a rather large thing? That doesn't happen without lots of smaller things changing in the background.

I'm very big into foreign policy and I din't see how this helps Kim in the long run.  Again, he has gained no new allies.  The way he, and his nation, are viewed by the rest of the world has not changed.  The argument about Trump being a bad, and/or widely derided, POTUS rather works against this argument.  Trump has no legitimacy to many, his meeting with Kim doesn't affect Kim in a positive way.  As far as a diplomatic presence, I'll discuss it when it happens.

(02-28-2019, 12:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: "silly" is all they can say when they know it's the truth. But carry on acting like Obama fell in love with Kim, and met with him twice and got nothing out of it etc....

LOL, "they".

Quote:I'll leave Trump supporters alone, because this is very embarrassing for them, but they have no choice but to try to make excuses for it.

In order to avoid embarrassment you should probably leave everyone alone.  Just a bit of friendly advice.

[jj22]

Um no. Trying to silence me won't work.

But I understand that's what you have to try to do when you can't defend Trump.

It just won't work with me or the rest of the nation outside of Trump world.

Besides, you're the only one defending this behavior. You. So why am I embarrassed again? For standing for America?

To everyone else. Thank you. There is hope as long as people don't accept this behavior from the American President. But we clearly have more work to do to get everyone on board with standing up for America.

"he's gained no new allies".... He's gained the biggest Ally in the world, with the most powerful military. I mean really..... Trump supporters will say anything to defend Trump.

[*michaelsean*]

Remember when everyone thought it was funny that Kim called Trump a dotard, and people thought it was hilarious and started referring to Trump as a dotard? Good times. Wasn't everyone pissed when Trump was mean to him?

[Belsnickel]

(02-28-2019, 12:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm very big into foreign policy and I din't see how this helps Kim in the long run.  Again, he has gained no new allies.  The way he, and his nation, are viewed by the rest of the world has not changed.  The argument about Trump being a bad, and/or widely derided, POTUS rather works against this argument.  Trump has no legitimacy to many, his meeting with Kim doesn't affect Kim in a positive way.  As far as a diplomatic presence, I'll discuss it when it happens.

No offense to you, but even if you are into foreign policy your opinion of this doesn't come with as much standing as people that have worked in the State Department, on the NSC, or in the White House on the foreign policy teams. The wonks in this field are saying this has made an impact.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-28-2019, 12:40 PM)jj22 Wrote: Um no. Trying to silence me won't work.

LOL, trying to silence you. 

Quote:But I understand that's what you have to try to do when you can't defend Trump.

It just won't work with me or the rest of the nation outside of Trump world.

Besides, you're the only one defending this behavior. You. So why am I embarrassed again? For standing for America?

Defending what behavior?  Are you referring to this thread or something else?

Quote:To everyone else. Thank you. There is hope as long as people don't accept this behavior from the American President. But we clearly have more work to do to get everyone on board with standing up for America.

LOL, "everyone else".

Quote:"he's gained no new allies".... He's gained the biggest Ally in the world, with the most powerful military.  I mean really..... Trump supporters will say anything to defend Trump.

N. Korea and the US are allies now?  Isn't the title of your thread, "Kim/Trump Summit Disaster"?  How did a "disastrous" summit result in a, as yet undisclosed alliance?  I will say, with your compelling argument I dearly wish you were on my side, along with "everyone" else.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-28-2019, 12:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: No offense to you, but even if you are into foreign policy your opinion of this doesn't come with as much standing as people that have worked in the State Department, on the NSC, or in the White House on the foreign policy teams. The wonks in this field are saying this has made an impact.

No offense taken.  I would point out that these wonks you refer to have a political agenda as well.  I'd be more inclined to lend credence to this "legitimizing Kim" argument if there was anything of substance they, or anyone, could point to as proof.  N. Korea is still a pariah nation, still under sanctions, has the same "allies" (really their allies see them as a useful idiot) and the same foes.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-28-2019, 10:41 AM)jj22 Wrote: Is anyone following. His supporters are even outraged.

Putin swooped in and has called the shots and Trump backs down. Even turns on Otto which his supporters are upset about (more than the policy wins for Kim and Putin)

Thus far:
Trump Believes: - Kim Jong Un didn’t torture Otto Warmbier.
Trump no longer demanding denuclearization. Biggest win for Kim and Putin ever provided by America.
No deal came that did anything to help Americas position.

Sounds like Trump just used Kim to boost his world standing.

I think Trump is demanding de-nuclearisation.  That's why the talks fell apart.

[jj22]

Yes, Trump left clearing him of Otto, and backing down from the long standing denuclearization demand.

He's professed his love for Kim. Doubling down on falling in love at first meeting.

Who is our other allies? Maybe you can tell that to Trump, because so far our top 2 Allies in Trumps mind is Russia and NK. No one of our old traditional allies is going to war with us under Trump. He's attacked them all for Putin and Kim.

So I say it was a disaster, because it was for America. But in Trump world (obviously) it wasn't a disaster.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-28-2019, 12:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: No offense to you, but even if you are into foreign policy your opinion of this doesn't come with as much standing as people that have worked in the State Department, on the NSC, or in the White House on the foreign policy teams. The wonks in this field are saying this has made an impact.

Walk me through it.  An impact to who?  I could see the citizens of NK but they are probably told a bunch of BS anyway.  Who are the people/countries who are now thinking, "Trump met with him?  Wow this dude's legit."?  It's like wonks have their own language that nobody else pays attention to.  "This means this, and this means that" and the rest of the world goes on thinking this dude is still a crazy bastard.

[Belsnickel]

(02-28-2019, 12:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No offense taken.  I would point out that these wonks you refer to have a political agenda as well.  I'd be more inclined to lend credence to this "legitimizing Kim" argument if there was anything of substance they, or anyone, could point to as proof.  N. Korea is still a pariah nation, still under sanctions, has the same "allies" (really their allies see them as a useful idiot) and the same foes.

Everyone has a political agenda, because everything is politics. That being said, these wonks come from across the political spectrum and they're all saying the same thing. Though, admittedly, one of the other things they have in common is a general disdain for the way the Trump administration handles foreign policy, so that does introduce some bias. Trump's crippling of our foreign services has made him quite a few enemies in the field.

[jj22]

(02-28-2019, 01:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I think Trump is demanding de-nuclearisation.  That's why the talks fell apart.

I'm under the impression he backed away from that demand this week. But don't hold me to that. I'll look into it. But that's the impression I got from Twitter. But that's twitter.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-28-2019, 01:05 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm under the impression he backed away from that demand this week.

What I read is that Kim offered to partially denuke in return for sanctions being lifted and Trump said no and that's what ended the meeting.

[Belsnickel]

(02-28-2019, 01:04 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Walk me through it.  An impact to who?  I could see the citizens of NK but they are probably told a bunch of BS anyway.  Who are the people/countries who are now thinking, "Trump met with him?  Wow this dude's legit."?  It's like wonks have their own language that nobody else pays attention to.  "This means this, and this means that" and the rest of the world goes on thinking this dude is still a crazy bastard.

Like I said, since foreign policy isn't my forte I can't really get into the weeds on it like I could some other things like finance, oversight, or higher ed. I will agree, though, that wonks do have their own language and it is especially true with regard to foreign policy. The intricacies and the number of moving parts makes it difficult to parse through, and unless you have been involved in the diplomatic process it's near impossible.

One thing that is true of domestic and international politics is that a lot of it works on political capital, this intangible thing that politicians carry with them that allows them to get things done. Call it clout, or power, or gravitas, or whatever, but I tend to think of it as capital because it can be earned and it can be spent. When two politicians meet, there is an exchange of capital. How much each one gains or loses depends on the variables involved and how the meeting ends up. No matter the weight of the meeting, from two freshman Representatives in a DC coffee shop to two heads of state, there is this exchange of capital. The meetings between Trump and Kim have both resulted in a boost to Kim's capital. Just by the positions they hold within their respective countries, Trump has more political capital on the international stage than Kim. Because of this, interactions that appear neutral put them on the same level, giving more political capital to Kim than to Trump, and sometimes at the expense of Trump's capital.

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2019, 01:04 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Walk me through it.  An impact to who?  I could see the citizens of NK but they are probably told a bunch of BS anyway.  Who are the people/countries who are now thinking, "Trump met with him?  Wow this dude's legit."?  It's like wonks have their own language that nobody else pays attention to.  "This means this, and this means that" and the rest of the world goes on thinking this dude is still a crazy bastard.

Look at it from South Korea's point of view.  They have always depended on the US as a 100% ally. Now they may be thinking Trump will sell out their security in order to make himself look good for cutting a deal with NK.  So now SK may be looking at options of allying with other countries in the region instead of just depending on the US.

I am not really an expert in the politics of that region, but I know the experts have been warning about legitimizing the NK government.  I think it is probably them having a better understanding of the situation than laymen like us knowing more than them.

BTW I have to say I prefer Trump walking away instead of entering a bad deal just to make himself look like the great peacemaker.

[Dill]

(02-28-2019, 12:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd love for someone to point out how it's different other than "muh feels".  No one who didn't support them supports them now and vice versa.  N. Korea is exactly what it's been for the past seventy years, a useful distraction for Russia/USSR and a buffer zone between China and US influence.  That's all it will ever be unless it makes radical changes.

I am in the middle of something else at the moment so I don't have time to give a thorough answer.  Maybe later tonight.

But I cannot let this pass without saying something at least.

The effectiveness of sanctions depends on the willingness of nations to enforce them. Before the first big historic first summit, Kim was boxed in even by Russia and China.  Since Kim Il Sung, no North Korean leader traveled around the world meeting with leaders to establish multiple unilateral relations with them--the kind that make it hard to enforce sanctions and easy to get around them. 

The first Summit opened young Kim's way to face-to-face meetings with leaders of China, South Korea, Singapore, and Japan(on the table).  Now add Putin and Vietnam's Trong. The (correct) perception of Trump's ineffectiveness is working now to undo the sanctions regime placed on NK by Bush, Obama and the UN.

We are a long ways from the Obama days, when a US leader could get countries as different as China, Iran and Russia to sit down at the table and agree to something.

[NATI BENGALS]

I remember the good old days when the President of the United States of America demanded respect and carried more political weight than anyone on the planet.

Now he meets and puts the little fat kid on a pedestal, the same one who fed his family members to dogs and threatens America with nukes, and treats him with vast amounts of undeserved respect and shows him as an equal flags flying side by side.

And Trumpets could care less? Put another one in the win column for Putin, his puppet, and their goal to end America's run at the top.