Kim/Trump Summit Disaster

[GMDino]

(02-28-2019, 08:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: First of all, The Daily Mail?  Second, while I'd be disturbed if anyone would believe anything coming out of the mouth of a NK government official their claim of the offer made, which Trump refused and abruptly cancelled the whole summit, doesn't make sense at all.  I suppose the truth of it is up to the individual to decide.

I feel much the same way when someone believes DJT, but then I know he's a conman.

However the gist is that Trump just gave NK some nice propaganda to use...again.

Don't worry though.  He'll get some of his own tonight with his exclusive Hannity interview!  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-28-2019, 08:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: I feel much the same way when someone believes DJT, but then I know he's a conman.

It's rather telling that you'd equate Trump to a person paid to lie for the most murderous regime on the planet.  I have to wonder why you'd be confused that you're constantly accused of an unreasonable amount of bias towards the man.

Quote:However the gist is that Trump just gave NK some nice propaganda to use...again.

Ahh, yes, the nebulous damage you keep touting regarding these summits.  I'll put it simply, if you're a person who believes North Korean propaganda then you're not a person I'd waste any time on trying to win over.  Please note I say that in the general sense, not meaning you personally

Quote:Don't worry though.  He'll get some of his own tonight with his exclusive Hannity interview!  

I wouldn't "worry" either way.  I've seen the rational takes on the summit from learned people who aren't trying to make political hay over this.  I tend to largely agree with their opinions and they don't seem very in sync with yours.

[GMDino]

(02-28-2019, 08:55 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's rather telling that you'd equate Trump to a person paid to lie for the most murderous regime on the planet.  I have to wonder why you'd be confused that you're constantly accused of an unreasonable amount of bias towards the man.

Weird you'd make that comparison. I'm just talking about how he lies all the time and so many people believe to the point they don't believe anything negative about him.

"telling"

(02-28-2019, 08:55 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ahh, yes, the nebulous damage you keep touting regarding these summits.  I'll put it simply, if you're a person who believes North Korean propaganda then you're not a person I'd waste any time on trying to win over.  Please note I say that in the general sense, not meaning you personally

Well it's pretty bipartisan that DJT went in unprepared and got nothing while Kim got another photo op with the leader of the free world and chance to accuse the US of being unreasonable.

I know there's a deep desire to keep saying Trump doesn't do any wrong but I more fair view would at least see this, at the last, as a misstep or an over reach by a man who really believes he's just smarter than everyone else.

(02-28-2019, 08:55 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I wouldn't "worry" either way.  I've seen the rational takes on the summit from learned people who aren't trying to make political hay over this.  I tend to largely agree with their opinions and they don't seem very in sync with yours.

Wow. You mean you agree with the "rational" takes that agree with what you already thought? That's amazing that the "rational" people all agreed with you.

I'd love to stick around play another round of "I'm SSF and I'm smarter, less biased and more reasonable than you" but I do have some stuff to do tonight.

[Beaker]

(02-28-2019, 01:07 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What I read is that Kim offered to partially denuke in return for sanctions being lifted and Trump said no and that's what ended the meeting.

This is correct.

DJT also did the correct thing in saying that if Kim said he didnt know about Otto, he would take him at his word. 

All that means is that he didnt call Kim a liar which would break ties and prevent any further talks or progress. He didnt say he was taking Kim's side on the issue. Diplomats will operate this way all the time. Act nice to each other, then go through back channels to figure out the truth or get things done.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-28-2019, 09:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: Weird you'd make that comparison.  I'm just talking about how he lies all the time and so many people believe to the point they don't believe anything negative about him.

"telling"

He certainly has issues with the truth and often in self serving ways.  I'd still trust him before a North Korean government official and it's not even close.

Quote:Well it's pretty bipartisan that DJT went in unprepared and got nothing while Kim got another photo op with the leader of the free world and chance to accuse the US of being unreasonable.

Except it's really not.

Quote:I know there's a deep desire to keep saying Trump doesn't do any wrong but I more fair view would at least see this, at the last, as a misstep or an over reach by a man who really believes he's just smarter than everyone else.

In order for me to keep saying Trump doesn't do any wrong I'd have to start saying he doesn't do any wrong.  You are so hyper partisan on this issue that you see anything other than complete agreement with your points as taking the polar opposite side.  You also seem completely oblivious to this fact.

Quote:Wow.  You mean you agree with the "rational" takes that agree with what you already thought?

Except I didn't agree with all of them or even the whole point of any of them.  I did find all four points in the article I posted to be much more nuanced and well reasoned than anything I've read on US news sites.

Quote: That's amazing that the "rational" people all agreed with you.  

Except they didn't.  I agreed with a large portion of most of them and not all of any of them.  The rational part comes from the fact that their takes were devoid of talking points and presented well reasoned, fact based, observations.  But feel free to return to your rather weak attempts at mockery.  I have to say, since reading about Wildcats and resolving to turn over a new leaf in this forum I have come to observe that your behavior is, at the very least, as toxic as those you purport to be "ruining" the forum.  Maybe it's time for you to do a little self examination as well? 

[Dill]

(02-28-2019, 08:38 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: C'mon get real, only Obama agrees to shit like that.

Obama never agreed to a meeting with Kim Jong Un. 

He never set up summits without laying the groundwork first. Trump did. Twice. Maybe three times if you count Helsinki.

Now Trump surrogates are crowing he was "right to walk away from a bad deal."

But the bad deal has been there for two decades. That's why no other president has met with Kim or his father.

So why did Trump have to put the walk-away deal on a world stage?

Obama didn't first call France, GB, Germany, China, Russia and Iran together to a summit and THEN ask if they could sign a nuke deal.

[*bfine32*]

Well at least we haven't let this thread turn personal.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-28-2019, 08:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6757367/North-Koreans-insist-Trump-demanded-nuke-deal-proposal-never-change.html

Is there a part of that you thought was particularly telling or important? You generally bold things.

[*bfine32*]

(02-28-2019, 07:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.  That is the way the echo chamber programs people.  It convinces you that you are incapable of having a valid opinion of your own, i.e. your opinion "means shit".  

Then your Donald tells you what your opinion is.

Echo chamber told me nothing of the sort. It was training as a Casualty Assistance Officer. 

My opinion means shit when a parent(s) is dealing with the death of a child. And all of you "capable" of having a valid opinion are doing nothing more than serving yourself. 

[*michaelsean*]

(02-28-2019, 09:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Echo chamber told me nothing of the sort. It was training as a Casualty Assistance Officer. 

My opinion means shit when a parent(s) is dealing with the death of a child. And all of you "capable" of having a valid opinion are doing nothing more than serving yourself. 

I don’t envy you that job. While I can’t speak from experience in either endeavor I think I’d rather be where the shooting is.

[hollodero]

(02-28-2019, 09:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He certainly has issues with the truth and often in self serving ways.  I'd still trust him before a North Korean government official and it's not even close.

Interesting.
I really trust no one of those and there's no grey area for me on this one. What Trump says is basically worthless and no one can really be less trustworthy.
As soon as the truth probability is at or under 50% - and it is with Trump - nothing really matters any more regarding trust. Without additional information I can't make any educated guess if anything said by Trump is likely truthful or not, and just the same goes for a North Korean official.

(02-28-2019, 09:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In order for me to keep saying Trump doesn't do any wrong I'd have to start saying he doesn't do any wrong.  You are so hyper partisan on this issue that you see anything other than complete agreement with your points as taking the polar opposite side.  You also seem completely oblivious to this fact.

Not that I want to get into one of these bickerings, but that statement is kind of true. I observed it quite often, whoever doesn't despise Trump just as much is often painted as being in full agreement with everything he does. I'm sure many deserve that assertion, but some others really don't.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-28-2019, 09:52 PM)hollodero Wrote: Interesting.
I really trust no one of those and there's no grey area for me on this one. What Trump says is basically worthless and no one can really be less trustworthy.
As soon as the truth probability is at or under 50% - and it is with Trump - nothing really matters any more regarding trust. Without additional information I can't make any educated guess if anything said by Trump is likely truthful or not, and just the same goes for a North Korean official.

I deal with criminals all the time.  I don't trust any of them and I get lied to for a living.  Within that group, there are some I would readily believe over others.  This is the same type of situation.  I don't trust Trump, but if the North Korean government told me the sky was blue I'd go check out a window.

Quote:Not that I want to get into one of these bickerings, but that statement is kind of true. I observed it quite often, whoever doesn't despise Trump just as much is often painted as being in full agreement with everything he does. I'm sure many deserve that assertion, but some others really don't.

I'm sure GM would put me in the former camp, but yes, this happens all the time.

[*bfine32*]

(02-28-2019, 09:48 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don’t envy you that job. While I can’t speak from experience in either endeavor I think I’d rather be where the shooting is.

I was never required to knock on doors. At that time I was a civilian and in more of an administrative role. But yes; I've had bullets wiz by my head and I'd take take over having to knock on that door. 

It is why in matters such as these; the way the family feels is all that matters; my opinion (although I've fully capable of forming one) means shit. 

[hollodero]

(02-28-2019, 10:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I deal with criminals all the time.  I don't trust any of them and I get lied to for a living.  Within that group, there are some I would readily believe over others.  This is the same type of situation.  I don't trust Trump, but if the North Korean government told me the sky was blue I'd go check out a window.

I get some occasional liars are more trustworthy as others. I understand the need to distinguish types of grey. But in my understanding there's a certain logical baseline for that.
If you knew I lied half of the time, lacking other sources you would have no way of knowing if a statement of mine is true or not. Trump lies half of the time (says me, but many fact checkers seem to agree with that), so regarding truth there's no assessment possible for anything he says. No Korean contradicting him could change that in Trump's favor.
So if Trump contradicts the North Koreans, it's 100% a dart throw for me who to believe. They both don't make the baseline for any trust.

[Benton]

(02-28-2019, 09:08 PM)Beaker Wrote: He didnt say he was taking Kim's side on the issue. Diplomats will operate this way all the time. Act nice to each other, then go through back channels to figure out the truth or get things done.

In fairness, he did say he was taking the dictator's side. He had his own intel versus the word of a dictator, he chose.

As far as the rest, the only back channel things he's working on is a new casino or golf course. 

[BmorePat87]

(02-28-2019, 09:08 PM)Beaker Wrote: This is correct.

DJT also did the correct thing in saying that if Kim said he didnt know about Otto, he would take him at his word. 

All that means is that he didnt call Kim a liar which would break ties and prevent any further talks or progress. He didnt say he was taking Kim's side on the issue. Diplomats will operate this way all the time. Act nice to each other, then go through back channels to figure out the truth or get things done.

The right thing to do is to not publicly disgrace the memory of an America to appease the ego of a dictator.

This also wouldn’t be as big of a deal if he didn’t have a history of publicly stating that he believes dictators over our intelligence community when they say they didn’t commit crimes.

North Korea’s human rights abuses should be addressed. We aren’t a moral compass for the rest of the world if we publicly state belief that some of the biggest abusers of humans rights aren’t abusing human rights.

[GMDino]

(02-28-2019, 09:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Echo chamber told me nothing of the sort. It was training as a Casualty Assistance Officer. 

My opinion means shit when a parent(s) is dealing with the death of a child. And all of you "capable" of having a valid opinion are doing nothing more than serving yourself. 

Nothing precludes you from having an opinion no matter what.

It's an opinion.  It's how YOU feel about the subject.  Not the final word.  Don't run off to tell his parents how you feel.  But you can at least feel something.

Hell if the parents don't mind that Trump is letting Kim off the hook I don't care.  But I have an opinion that Trump is a fool and what he said was sickening.  Much like his refusal to believe what happened in SA or that the Russians were the ones hacking the elections.

To say you won't be offended if the parents are not is simply ignoring it no matter what your training was.

Some of us are capable of doing our jobs and still having human emotions and feeling that are our own and not trained into us.

Thanks.

[GMDino]

(03-01-2019, 01:33 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The right thing to do is to not publicly disgrace the memory of an America to appease the ego of a dictator.

This also wouldn’t be as big of a deal if he didn’t have a history of publicly stating that he believes dictators over our intelligence community when they say they didn’t commit crimes.

North Korea’s human rights abuses should be addressed. We aren’t a moral compass for the rest of the world if we publicly state belief that some of the biggest abusers of humans rights aren’t abusing human rights.

NK...SA.  DJT just believes whatever the leaders tell him because he thinks since they are leaders they must be powerful.  And for him power equals "right".

He's sad little man with no backbone unless he surrounded by an adoring crowd or he can hide behind his phone and tweet how tough he is.

btw, that's an "opinion" and it might not mean "shit" but I don't have to care if DJT or anyone else likes it.

[*bfine32*]

(03-01-2019, 01:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: Nothing precludes you from having an opinion no matter what.

It's an opinion.  It's how YOU feel about the subject.  Not the final word.  Don't run off to tell his parents how you feel.  But you can at least feel something.

Hell if the parents don't mind that Trump is letting Kim off the hook I don't care.  But I have an opinion that Trump is a fool and what he said was sickening.  Much like his refusal to believe what happened in SA or that the Russians were the ones hacking the elections.

To say you won't be offended if the parents are not is simply ignoring it no matter what your training was.

Some of us are capable of doing our jobs and still having human emotions and feeling that are our own and not trained into us.

Thanks.

Simply said my opinion doesn't matter in a situation such as this. Everyone that has posted their opinion has "run off" and told the parents how they feel. I rely on my training over your post. 

You and the rest of the gang can hate Trump all you want, but don't bastardize a parent's thoughts of their son of their Nation's response to his death because you want to fulfill your own agenda.

Each of you should be ashamed for disregarding the tragedy in  an effort to vent your hate. But history has shown me you will not. 

[Dill]

(03-01-2019, 01:33 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The right thing to do is to not publicly disgrace the memory of an America to appease the ego of a dictator.

This also wouldn’t be as big of a deal if he didn’t have a history of publicly stating that he believes dictators over our intelligence community when they say they didn’t commit crimes.

North Korea’s human rights abuses should be addressed. We aren’t a moral compass for the rest of the world if we publicly state belief that some of the biggest abusers of humans rights aren’t abusing human rights.

Also, we are talking about the guy who a year ago was ready to rain "fire and fury" on "little rocket man."

Even if Trump needed to mute the problem momentarily on grounds of diplomatic sensitivity, there was absolutely no need to say he "believed" Kim and rattle on about how "big" the country was. 

The Warmbier kid was taken as a hostage. No way that happens without Kim's knowledge, no way Kim does not know of his trial and sentence, where he was incarcerated and how this bargaining chip was handled and by whom.  It possible that some guard did take it too far (not on orders) and ruin the chip. But no way Kim does not know the status of every American held there.