Kneeling during the national anthem and claims of disrespect

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I wanted to make this point in the other thread, but I can see why it was closed. I’ve mentioned before the officer who I supervise and the discussions we like to have on current events and issues. One of those topics was kneeling during the national anthem.

While I have my issues with Kaepernick, and don’t find him to be an honest actor, I do believe that the majority of people kneeling during the anthem are not doing it to disrespect the flag or nation. But here’s the rub, you don’t get to tell other people that they can’t find the action disrespectful. You can explain that your intent is not to disrespect the flag or nation, but when you’re then told that people still find the action disrespectful you have a choice to make. Keep doing what you’re doing in full knowledge that some people find it offensive and disrespectful or stop doing it. Either decision is fine, especially in a country that still values free speech. But what you absolutely cannot logically do is tell people they can’t, or shouldn’t, find the kneeling offensive or disrespectful.

The officer I haves these discussions with hates the word “boss”. She’s told me she feels that way because the entomology of the word is a Dutch word whose direct translation is “master.” Now, knowing this I could still use the word boss in front of her and claim I’m not using it in an offensive manner. But because she has let me know she finds the word offensive and why, if I use it in her presence I do so in full knowledge that she will be offended.

So, in summation, kneel if you feel doing so makes the statement you want to make. Just don’t claim it’s not offensive because a large number of people have told you they find it offensive. Your intent may not be to offend, but you kneel in full knowledge that in so doing you are offending people.

Please keep the responses civil guys, I know this is an emotional topic.

[BrownAssClown]

Yea...I logged in to reply on that topic and it was locked. Anyway , I wish these athletes would find a way to get their message out there in a different way that wouldn't upset so many people; that being said I would rather they kneel on the ground than on another human beings neck.

[Belsnickel]

I guess my issue with the whole idea of finding the kneeling offensive is how little everyone I have heard complain about the kneeling care about things that go against the flag code, which is a codified list of things that are disrespectful to the flag. Napkins and paper plates, shorts, tshirts, these things are made with the flag on them on a regular basis and I would wager could be found at picnics hosted by people that complain about the kneeling, but those are disrespectful to the flag by law.

I just wish people would be willing to have a conversation about the whole thing rather than just shutting off.

[*jason*]

(07-25-2020, 07:06 PM)BrownAssClown Wrote: Yea...I logged in to reply on that topic and it was locked. Anyway , I wish these athletes would find a way to get their message out there in a different way that wouldn't upset so many people; that being said I would rather they kneel on the ground than on another human beings neck.

Yeah... At this point the national anthem and flag is irrelevant to the cause. Hell do it during the coin toss. X amount of people are immediately turned off to whatever you're trying to say if you're trying to say it during the national anthem. That being said, people are getting pissed because baseball players are kneeling before the national anthem. So it's safe to say some don't wanna hear it period.

Does anybody remember back in 96 or 97 when Mahmoud Abdul Rauf (Denver Nuggets), formerly Chris Jackson sat for the national anthem? His reasoning was broader than Kaepernick's, but the same protest. The NBA stepped in and made him stand... So he stood and prayed, while all the patriots booed DURING the anthem. His teammates had to encircle him so people wouldn't throw shit. Can you imagine the exploding heads on Fox news and social media if a Muslim did that today?

[BmorePat87]

(07-25-2020, 06:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I wanted to make this point in the other thread, but I can see why it was closed. I’ve mentioned before the officer who I supervise and the discussions we like to have on current events and issues. One of those topics was kneeling during the national anthem.

While I have my issues with Kaepernick, and don’t find him to be an honest actor, I do believe that the majority of people kneeling during the anthem are not doing it to disrespect the flag or nation. But here’s the rub, you don’t get to tell other people that they can’t find the action disrespectful. You can explain that your intent is not to disrespect the flag or nation, but when you’re then told that people still find the action disrespectful you have a choice to make. Keep doing what you’re doing in full knowledge that some people find it offensive and disrespectful or stop doing it. Either decision is fine, especially in a country that still values free speech. But what you absolutely cannot logically do is tell people they can’t, or shouldn’t, find the kneeling offensive or disrespectful.

The officer I haves these discussions with hates the word “boss”. She’s told me she feels that way because the entomology of the word is a Dutch word whose direct translation is “master.”  Now, knowing this I could still use the word boss in front of her and claim I’m not using it in an offensive manner. But because she has let me know she finds the word offensive and why, if I use it in her presence I do so in full knowledge that she will be offended.

So, in summation, kneel if you feel doing so makes the statement you want to make. Just don’t claim it’s not offensive because a large number of people have told you they find it offensive. Your intent may not be to offend, but you kneel in full knowledge that in so doing you are offending people.

Please keep the responses civil guys, I know this is an emotional topic.

The flip side of this is that you don't get to tell others whether or not their actions are offensive and disrespectful if they in no way attack or slander the thing you are saying they disrespect.

What is offensive and disrespectful can be based off of societal or personal standards. In the case of kneeling during the anthem, it's a personal standard and that personal standard has absolutely zero impact on the inherent nature of someone else kneeling. 

When we shift the conversation from the intent and thoughts of the person actually kneeling to those of anyone else, we lose focus and create a situation of false victimhood.

[*bfine32*]

It's really not that hard to understand. When we play the anthem you are asked to stand and render honors. If you choose not to you are not rendering honors. It cannot get any more simple than that.

[GMDino]

(07-25-2020, 10:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's really not that hard to understand. When we play the anthem you are asked to stand and render honors. If you choose not to you are not rendering honors. It cannot get any more simple than that.

Are you asked to not do anything else?  Because unless it is a hard fast rule that you must stand you CAN do anything and not dishonoring the flag.

What about people in the bathroom?  Ordering food?  Watching at home, sitting on their couch?  Are the not rendering honor?  How offended should we be about it?

[BmorePat87]

(07-25-2020, 07:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I guess my issue with the whole idea of finding the kneeling offensive is how little everyone I have heard complain about the kneeling care about things that go against the flag code, which is a codified list of things that are disrespectful to the flag. Napkins and paper plates, shorts, tshirts, these things are made with the flag on them on a regular basis and I would wager could be found at picnics hosted by people that complain about the kneeling, but those are disrespectful to the flag by law.

I just wish people would be willing to have a conversation about the whole thing rather than just shutting off.

This occurs far more frequently, and I would wager that nearly everyone encounters it in their daily life. But this does not cause boycotts or outrage. It's the message of the kneeling, not the kneeling itself, that causes the outrage.

Quote:No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

(a)
The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b)
The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
©
The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d)
The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e)
The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f)
The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g)
The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h)
The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i)
The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j)
No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k)
The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

[samhain]

I think the kneeling controversy hit at a rough time for the country, politically speaking. Not many people want to hear grievances from either side. They are mostly interested in how it affects their "team" politically and what they can get out of it in terms of narratives. Liberals are communists and terrorsists to the far right. Conservatives are facists and Nazis to the left. There's zero common sense applied. If people like Kaepernick and BLM have a genuine discussion that they want to engage in, then why not do so without automatic disdain and assumptions of alterior motives/ignorance? Why automatically react?

The same attitude should be directed toward those who take offense to the act of kneeling. Don't just call them racist or MAGA types without hearing them out. I know for a fact that plenty of people that are in no way racist have a real problem with the kneeling, and it's not about any kind of disdain for black people that want to have a discussion about brutality. It's about how they feel about relatives/loved ones that made sacrifices.

We are at a very dangerous crossroads in this country. We're all very quick to dismiss anything that doesn't automatically line up with our own vision for what we think this country is about. That's a path to violence and ruin. I'm admittedly guilty of it myself at times. People are free to speak their minds however they like, but it would be of immense benefit for everyone to choose words more carefully given the situation.

[*bfine32*]

(07-25-2020, 10:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: Are you asked to not do anything else?  Because unless it is a hard fast rule that you must stand you CAN do anything and not dishonoring the flag.

What about people in the bathroom?  Ordering food?  Watching at home, sitting on their couch?  Are the not rendering honor?  How offended should we be about it?

Tired argument is tired. If you CHOOSE not to honor the flag by standing the you are not rendering honors to the flag; especially when you make a conscious effort not to do so. 

Wanna, piss, eat, kneel, sit,...feel free but you are being disrespectful during a time of honors to the flag and for which it stands. 

[fredtoast]

Here is why the whole "disrespecting the flag" argument is total BS.  There are thousands T-shirst for Trump and/or the NRA that have an image of the flag with writing superimposed over it.

(g)
The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.

(i)
The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.


So all this crying about kneeling is BS.  In fact many of the same people are pissed that players are kneeling BEFORE the anthem is played.

When some patriot starts complaining about all the other ways the flag is disrespected then I might think he has a legitimate gripe.  But I have not seen that anywhere yet.

[fredtoast]

It is pretty much impossible to have any effective protest withoiut upsetting someone.  Rosa Parks upset the people who needed the bus to run on time.  MLK's march to Birmingham upset the people who needed traffic to flow quicker.  The 2A crowd that occupied the Michican Capitol Building upset people who needed to conduct business there.

You know what upsets the people at Fox News?  The fact that I usually vote for Democrats.  They are enraged because voting for a Democrat means I "WANT TO DESTROY AMERICA", and apparently the fact that they believe that makes it true.  So should I stop voting for Democrats just because it upsets some people?

[fredtoast]

What do these two facts tell you about the people who are freaking out over the kneeling?

An intelligent successful man does NOT feak out and start crying if someone calls him a "stupid loser".

The only countries that have FORCED displays of Patriotism are oppressive regimes.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Civilians should stand at attention with the hand over their heart. Everyone who doesn’t is disrespecting the flag, the military, America, Mom, and apple pie!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mir15oAKXtg

Just disgusting the majority of people at the Super Bowl blatantly disrespect the flag!

And I mean the RIGIII11D!!!! POSITION OF ATTENTION!!!!!!

RIGID!!!!

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 11:05 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Civilians should stand at attention with the hand over their heart. Everyone who doesn’t is disrespecting the flag, the military, America, Mom, and apple pie!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mir15oAKXtg

Just disgusting the majority of people at the Super Bowl blatantly disrespect the flag!

And I mean the RIGIII11D!!!! POSITION OF ATTENTION!!!!!!

RIGID!!!!

Do you stand for the National Anthem? 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 11:17 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you stand for the National Anthem? 

I'm offended you would ask such an offensive question! 

You're god damn right I stand for the National Anthem.  I stand at the rigid position of attention.  I don't talk.  I'm don't go to the bathroom. I don't stand in line at the concessions.  I don't walk up or down the steps or along the aisle. I don't bebop around like the players. I don't drink my beer.  I'm not on my cellphone.  I don't scratch my ass. And that's in my living room at home while I watch on TV. Because I'm red blooded, corn fed American.  Hell, I even render the hand salute instead of placing my hand on my heart just to prove I'm more American than all those people disrespecting the flag while Demo Lovato was singing the National Anthem.  And I mean a real hand salute.  Not like that poor imitation of a hand salute at :34 into the video where that PVT's hand and wrist is like 13 different god damn angles instead of one single knife edge. Hell, the tip of his right forefinger of his god damn hand isn't touching his forehead near the outside of his right eyebrow for Christ's sake!  I'm offended his Drill Sergeant didn't learn that boy better!  So much to be offended about in that video.  So much disrespect.

Except I haven't heard anyone complain about being offended by any of it.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 11:49 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm offended you would ask such an offensive question! 

You're god damn right I stand for the National Anthem.  I stand at the rigid position of attention.  I don't talk.  I'm don't go to the bathroom. I don't stand in line at the concessions.  I don't walk up or down the steps or along the aisle. I don't bebop around like the players. I don't drink my beer.  I'm not on my cellphone.  I don't scratch my ass. And that's in my living room at home while I watch on TV. Because I'm red blooded, corn fed American.  Hell, I even render the hand salute instead of placing my hand on my heart just to prove I'm more American than all those people disrespecting the flag while Demo Lovato was singing the National Anthem.  And I mean a real hand salute.  Not like that poor imitation of a hand salute at :34 into the video where that PVT's hand and wrist is like 13 different god damn angles instead of one single knife edge. Hell, the tip of his right forefinger of his god damn hand isn't touching his forehead near the outside of his right eyebrow for Christ's sake!  I'm offended his Drill Sergeant didn't learn that boy better!  So much to be offended about in that video.  So much disrespect.

Except I haven't heard anyone complain about being offended by any of it.

A simple Yes would have sufficed. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-25-2020, 11:10 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This occurs far more frequently, and I would wager that nearly everyone encounters it in their daily life. But this does not cause boycotts or outrage. It's the message of the kneeling, not the kneeling itself, that causes the outrage.

Yep. It's people trying to use a false sense of patriotism to make themselves feel superior to others to win an argument rather than focusing on the actual message. How many times has a flag been brought out onto a football field in a horizontal position for some show being done? Did any of these people express outrage over the disrespect the flag was shown, there? I also don't even see anything about standing for the flag in this section of things that are disrespectful for the flag. Makes it seem even less like it's about the kneeling, doesn't it?

[fredtoast]

Just want to say that the comments I make about "people losing their heads" are not necessarily aimed at members here. I am talking about the people who say they will quit watching thr NFL or the ones who say any player that knees should be kicked out of the league.

There are many people who have said they are offended but have not had these extreme reactions.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 11:53 AM)bfine32 Wrote: A simple Yes would have sufficed. 

The First Amendment says otherwise.  Are you a communist?

How can you not be offended by that piss poor excuse of a "salute" (I use that term loosely) in that video? Just pathetic.  Show some respect, right?