Kneeling during the national anthem and claims of disrespect

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-25-2020, 08:45 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The flip side of this is that you don't get to tell others whether or not their actions are offensive and disrespectful if they in no way attack or slander the thing you are saying they disrespect.

What is offensive and disrespectful can be based off of societal or personal standards. In the case of kneeling during the anthem, it's a personal standard and that personal standard has absolutely zero impact on the inherent nature of someone else kneeling. 

When we shift the conversation from the intent and thoughts of the person actually kneeling to those of anyone else, we lose focus and create a situation of false victimhood.

Except you absolutely can do exactly that. The point of the thread is that you can’t tell people how to feel. There’s a whole lot of that going on in this thread. The basic point remains, lots of people find kneeling during the anthem offensive and if you choose to kneel then you know you are offending those people. If you’re ok with that, as a protester, then fine. But you can’t then act surprised when people are offended.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2020, 10:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is why the whole "disrespecting the flag" argument is total BS.  There are thousands T-shirst for Trump and/or the NRA that have an image of the flag with writing superimposed over it.

(g)
The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.

(i)
The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.


So all this crying about kneeling is BS.  In fact many of the same people are pissed that players are kneeling BEFORE the anthem is played.

When some patriot starts complaining about all the other ways the flag is disrespected then I might think he has a legitimate gripe.  But I have not seen that anywhere yet.

This post is the polar opposite of “get that son of a ***** off the field”. Just as extreme, just on the opposite side of the spectrum.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 12:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yep. It's people trying to use a false sense of patriotism to make themselves feel superior to others to win an argument rather than focusing on the actual message. How many times has a flag been brought out onto a football field in a horizontal position for some show being done? Did any of these people express outrage over the disrespect the flag was shown, there? I also don't even see anything about standing for the flag in this section of things that are disrespectful for the flag. Makes it seem even less like it's about the kneeling, doesn't it?

Exactly.  And civilians should stand at the position of attention while the National Anthem plays.  How can someone operate a television camera or the controls inside a broadcast van while standing at attention? It's impossible.  You can't do both at the same time.  Except I haven't heard anyone complain the networks are disrespecting the flag by not rendering honors by broadcasting the National Anthem.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-25-2020, 07:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I guess my issue with the whole idea of finding the kneeling offensive is how little everyone I have heard complain about the kneeling care about things that go against the flag code, which is a codified list of things that are disrespectful to the flag. Napkins and paper plates, shorts, tshirts, these things are made with the flag on them on a regular basis and I would wager could be found at picnics hosted by people that complain about the kneeling, but those are disrespectful to the flag by law.

I just wish people would be willing to have a conversation about the whole thing rather than just shutting off.

(07-25-2020, 11:10 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This occurs far more frequently, and I would wager that nearly everyone encounters it in their daily life. But this does not cause boycotts or outrage. It's the message of the kneeling, not the kneeling itself, that causes the outrage.

I think it’s far more likely that people aren’t even aware of these rules than that they don’t care about them. You two are intelligent guys, it’s not that hard to see why some people will find the kneeling offensive. They even say before the anthem, “please rise to honor America”. I think another thing that rather damages the kneeling position is kneeling for the US anthem and then standing respectfully for another country’s, like China for example.

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2020, 12:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think it’s far more likely that people aren’t even aware of these rules than that they don’t care about them. You two are intelligent guys, it’s not that hard to see why some people will find the kneeling offensive. They even say before the anthem, “please rise to honor America”. I think another thing that rather damages the kneeling position is kneeling for the US anthem and then standing respectfully for another country’s, like China for example.

I've literally never heard that phrase before the playing of the national anthem. I don't disagree with your last statement, though, but I am unaware of any occurrences of it. Mostly because this whole controversy is asinine to me so I haven't paid a ton of attention to it.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 12:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've literally never heard that phrase before the playing of the national anthem. I don't disagree with your last statement, though, but I am unaware of any occurrences of it. Mostly because this whole controversy is asinine to me so I haven't paid a ton of attention to it.

You've never heard "Please stand as we pay honor" prior to the National Anthem being played. 

What, if anything, have you heard? 

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 12:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The First Amendment says otherwise.  Are you a communist?

How can you not be offended by that piss poor excuse of a "salute" (I use that term loosely) in that video? Just pathetic.  Show some respect, right?

I didn't say you weren't allowed to type all that other cool stuff; seems like something you just made up in your head. I just stated it wasn't necessary to answer the question posed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2020, 12:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've literally never heard that phrase before the playing of the national anthem. I don't disagree with your last statement, though, but I am unaware of any occurrences of it. Mostly because this whole controversy is asinine to me so I haven't paid a ton of attention to it.

They say it every time at The Forum and now Staples Center. I see a lot of Lakers and Kings games. I guess I thought it was more prevalent than it apparently is.

As to the second point it happened when the NBA played in China. The NBA is a joke in this regard and they should be ridiculed for kissing the ass of the most oppressive regime on the planet, maybe just behind North Korea.

[fredtoast]

(07-26-2020, 12:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The basic point remains, lots of people find kneeling during the anthem offensive and if you choose to kneel then you know you are offending those people. If you’re ok with that, as a protester, then fine. But you can’t then act surprised when people are offended.

I am not surprised.  I just disagree with their reaction.

If a fat person is offended when someone calls him fat he has two options.  Cry about being offended or try to lose weight.  If he decides to just cry about being offended then I would disagree with his reaction.

That is what I am doing with the people who choise to complain about being offended instead of addressing the reason people are protesting.

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2020, 12:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You've never heard "Please stand as we pay honor" prior to the National Anthem being played. 

What, if anything, have you heard? 

The most common thing I hear is just "please rise for the playing/singing of the national anthem." That's it.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 12:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They say it every time at The Forum and now Staples Center. I see a lot of Lakers and Kings games. I guess I thought it was more prevalent than it apparently is.

As to the second point it happened when the NBA played in China.  The NBA is a joke in this regard and they should be ridiculed for kissing the ass of the most oppressive regime on the planet, maybe just behind North Korea.

I've actually never been to an event where it was played where the audience was not asked to observe some form of honor.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 12:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You've never heard "Please stand as we pay honor" prior to the National Anthem being played. 

What, if anything, have you heard? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_lCmBvYMRs

I heard, "Please join in the singing . . ."

Which begs the question, why don't the announcers tell the crowd to stand at attention?

Which means stop moving! Did you see all those people disrespecting the flag?  Disgusting!

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 12:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I didn't say you weren't allowed to type all that other cool stuff; seems like something you just made up in your head. I just stated it wasn't necessary to answer the question posed.

It's your Flying Spaghetti Monster-given right to think that.

Ramen.

Do you let people know you're offended when they disrespect the National Anthem, the flag, the military, and the country by not standing at attention like they are supposed to do?

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 12:58 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It's your Flying Spaghetti Monster-given right to think that.

Ramen.

Do you let people know you're offended when they disrespect the National Anthem, the flag, the military, and the country by not standing at attention like they are supposed to do?

Nope and outside of Military function I've never heard anyone asked to stand at attention. 

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-25-2020, 06:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I wanted to make this point in the other thread, but I can see why it was closed. I’ve mentioned before the officer who I supervise and the discussions we like to have on current events and issues. One of those topics was kneeling during the national anthem.

While I have my issues with Kaepernick, and don’t find him to be an honest actor, I do believe that the majority of people kneeling during the anthem are not doing it to disrespect the flag or nation. But here’s the rub, you don’t get to tell other people that they can’t find the action disrespectful. You can explain that your intent is not to disrespect the flag or nation, but when you’re then told that people still find the action disrespectful you have a choice to make. Keep doing what you’re doing in full knowledge that some people find it offensive and disrespectful or stop doing it. Either decision is fine, especially in a country that still values free speech. But what you absolutely cannot logically do is tell people they can’t, or shouldn’t, find the kneeling offensive or disrespectful.

The officer I haves these discussions with hates the word “boss”. She’s told me she feels that way because the entomology of the word is a Dutch word whose direct translation is “master.”  Now, knowing this I could still use the word boss in front of her and claim I’m not using it in an offensive manner. But because she has let me know she finds the word offensive and why, if I use it in her presence I do so in full knowledge that she will be offended.

So, in summation, kneel if you feel doing so makes the statement you want to make. Just don’t claim it’s not offensive because a large number of people have told you they find it offensive. Your intent may not be to offend, but you kneel in full knowledge that in so doing you are offending people.

Please keep the responses civil guys, I know this is an emotional topic.

My thoughts on the overall subject is much too complicated that it requires a great bit of articulation which I am not in place to do atm.

I will address just the analogy. I agree one cannot tell another not find an action offensive. But in your analogy, suppose you have another boss ( let's say your boss), who insists that everyone reporting to him calls him "boss". Now if you choose not to address him this way in front of the other employee, well you just offended him (let's simplify and say that you did so knowing he would find it offensive). That's part of what's going on here, no? That people are finding offense that another person didn't commit an action that they want done, rather than commit an action which is "wrong"? Essentially that a symbol doesn't symbolize the same idea to the other that it does to them? Sorry to belabor the point, but if you do something that's offensive to me might be slightly different vs. you don't do something that I want you to do, essentially I'm going to pressure you to do, even if you don't want to do it? 

I think ultimately the question should be "well, why don't you feel the same way about this symbol that I do"? Instead of, "this symbol should feel a certain way to you as it does to me, and anything else just makes you .... unpatriotic, dishonorable, offensive or any other negative adjective"? That is, the conversation never progresses past the initial reaction. The merits can be judged once the conversation is actually had to its fullest depth.

Apologies in advance for the rambling. Admittedly not enough time to organize my thoughts as fully or clearly as I would like.

EDIT:
I fully realize "not standing" is also an action. But my question is about should we treat someone's words or deeds directly in offense against somebody, the same (especially in degree) as an inaction or not expressing a certain sentiment that they may honestly not feel, being offensive to others. For instance, if someone slurs a person, is that offense not greater than someone choosing not to speak greatly of something even if many find that thing to be great? A bit redundant, I realize, but I'm erring on the side of redundancy just to clarify my point.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 01:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope

So your outrage is selective.

Quote:and outside of Military function I've never heard anyone asked to stand at attention. 

Ignorance is no excuse.  As a red blooded, patriotic American you should know how you're supposed to render honors to the flag.

And you're telling me you disrespect the National Anthem, the flag, the military, and the country by not standing at attention during the National Anthem?

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 01:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So your outrage is selective.


Ignorance is no excuse.  As a red blooded, patriotic American you should know how you're supposed to render honors to the flag.

And you're telling me you disrespect the National Anthem, the flag, the military, and the country by not standing at attention during the National Anthem?

Where have I expressed outrage? I've said numerous times that no one should be required to stand. 

You seem to be the one kinda spun up.

[GMDino]

So, if I'm reading these back and forths right, we CAN'T tell people that they shouldn't be offended by the kneeling even if they are offended for the wrong reasons but we CAN tell people kneeling that they are kneeling for the wrong reason, should kneel and shouldn't be offended by people who don't understand why they are doing what they are doing.

So let them kneel.  Everyone can be offended by something and people can ignore the message behind the kneeling because they are offended.

Great.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 01:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where have I expressed outrage? I've said numerous times that no one should be required to stand. 

You seem to be the one kinda spun up.

Oh, so you don't care.  Then why comment if you don't care?

Do you stand at attention during the National Anthem like you're supposed to do?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2020, 01:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: So, if I'm reading these back and forths right, we CAN'T tell people that they shouldn't be offended by the kneeling even if they are offended for the wrong reasons but we CAN tell people kneeling that they are kneeling for the wrong reason, should kneel and shouldn't be offended by people who don't understand why they are doing what they are doing.

So let them kneel.  Everyone can be offended by something and people can ignore the message behind the kneeling because they are offended.

Great.

To succinctly answer your query, no.