Lapham on WRs

[*Nately120*]

(03-10-2016, 01:55 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: That's why with that big of a need at WR go get a WR in the draft you think can help right away. Don't wait until the 3rd or 5th round.

We're going to have to be extra aggressive with WRs in the draft because not only is it a glaring need for us, but if the WR FA crop is THIS bad then surely other teams are going to be looking to get WRs in the draft, nay?

[*Go Cards*]

(03-09-2016, 09:22 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: We can wait on a veteran signing... let the dust settle on the overpaying WR first...... 

Agree with this at this point. 

Think one will be added eventually actually. May even come as late as camp cuts with a vet released as a salary cap casualty. 

[*Go Cards*]

Got to hope AJ does not get hurt or it could get ugly quickly.

[PDub80]

People worked up over this need to realize that Denver just ran the table in the post season with Emanuel Sanders and Demaryius Thomas at WR along with Owen Daniels and a washed up Vernon Davis at TE. The Bengals roster was better in 2015 than theirs and it will be again in 2016. In fact, the Bengals STILL have the best roster in the AFC. Unfortunately, #2 is Pittsburgh.

- Overpaying ($8m/yr) for a WR who is a 3rd option and brings NOTHING to the punt or kick return game is ludicrous.

- If Iloka & Jones were coming from another team and the Bengals signed them people would be out in the street shooting off fireworks. The Bengals made the right moves with where they invested their money. Now, bring me

- Draft a WR who can make an impact in the return game and let Wright be competent on the outside and the Bengals will be in great shape. The Coleman kid from Baylor could be a strong candidate in the 1st. Instant KR upgrade and able to work all over the field.

On second thought.... HELL YES on Coleman. He reminds me of Steve Smith and he returns kickoffs.

[phil413]

(03-09-2016, 09:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You can only have up to 4 picks, and there's only 32 picks total given each year, so you have to go against the other 31 teams to even get that 4.

That said, why are people in love with compensatory picks? It doesn't help you at ALL this year. So what if they get an extra 4th rounder in 2017 if it means having a shit WR corps in 2016?

All that aside? The Bengals, for all their love of compensatory picks, suck with them something fierce. Here's a list of EVERY compensatory pick the Benglas have ever made under Lewis....

Elton Patterson
Landon Johnson (3rd Round)
Nedu Ndukwe
Andre Caldwell (3rd Round)
Matt Sherry
Angelo Craig
Mario Urrutia
Chase Coffman (3rd Round)
Bernard Scott
Clinton McDonald
Freddie Brown
Brandon Ghee (3rd Round)
Roderick Muckleroy
Jay Finley
Reid Fragel
TJ Johnson
Marquis Flowers
Lavelle Westbrooks
PJ Dawson (3rd Round)
Marcus Hardison


That is what a decade and a half of ignoring free agency gets you in return. That and no playoff wins. No thank you, how about they go and actually try to fix some things instead? Rishard Matthews and Reuben Randle are both still out there, as is Anquan Boldin.

I respect the legwork on the list, but that's a skewed way of looking at things.  Iloka and Marvin Jones were drafted later than a lot of the list and were gems.  They came with trades instead of comp picks, but it would be wrong of me to say that when Cincy makes a trade (throw in a starting CB and RG for Palmer) the pick is money in the bank. 

More importantly, I can agree that some on the board overvalue the "plan" to land a comp pick but I really believe the comp pick factor is a byproduct of Brown's own system.  They draft players, resign them if they're reasonable and they honor the full contract.  FA is about filling holes, not building your core.  I'd object to Cincy paying Marvin what was rumored just to be the 3rd option (even with his upside if AJ goes down), but I don't need a Sanu or Randle for 6M/yr.  I can't even keep up with the rumors, but bottom line is the cut FA's at WR that fit into what Cincy should spend are about the same no matter if they're cut or UFA.  That's where the preference for a cut player to offset Marvin's big deal in the comp calculations could net you a 3rd round pick.  That's a preference only.  That means if there are a glut of quality WR's, rather than getting into a bidding war for one then maybe Cincy signs one.  I don't think I'd actually be annoyed until a B+ UFA said he'd like to come back to Ohio and we see that they blatantly look the other way in hopes of say a 4th round comp pick.  So maybe I'm wrong but I don't see Brown's management seeing the comp system as absolute, but you have to find a player or need worth "giving up" that comp pick when the UFA's and cut players are similar in terms of worth to the team.  Not dollar for dollar, but a maybe Boldin for one year at 1/2 of Sanu's long term average is a better fit.  If they were strictly sold out for comp picks, they'd spend a lot more money to retain their own guys (Sanu) or wouldn't make high end offers so they become comp picks (Marvin).    

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-09-2016, 08:59 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: It is a shit WR free agent class. I would rather have a 3rd round comp pick next year, that will probably be tradable, than some bummy free agent WR.

I mean, while that makes perfect sense, in more ways than one, some of us actually want to win now.  Who helps more this year, a veteran FA or a 3rd round rookie?  A late 3rd rounder at that.

How many years can you keep kicking the can down the road?  Many feel like these last few years were missed opportunities.  Seasons that warranted going all in. 

Now we're down Hue Jackson, Vance Joseph, J Hayes, Marvin Jones, Muhamed Sanu, Andre Smith, Reggie Nelson, Leon Hall, Wallace Gillberry, Sims, Brandon Johnson... This team is drastically changing before are very eyes.  Names like Whitworth and Pacman, even with their deals, are down to 2-3 years left.  AJ Green and Andy Dalton are now about at the halfway point in their careers.  Mauluga is getting old.  The list goes on and on.

Is any time better than now to try to win.  And just to be clear, we're not talking about a 50 million dollar deal.  Are you really saying that we can't afford to spend an extra 3-5 mil, and sacrifice a late 3rd round pick, to improve this roster?

Concerning yourself with hoarding compensatory picks is EXACTLY what plagues this team.  While they hold value and the strategy is sound at times, you cannot be so stubborn and stuck in your ways, that leaves constantly afraid to make a move.

What does it say about this team when you look at recent Superbowl winners and their roster changes (Bennett, Avril, Revis, Talib, Manning, Demarus Ware, ect) and then you look at this team, afraid to sign someone for 5 mil, because they'll lose a compensatory pick?

Give me a freaking break...

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-10-2016, 02:27 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, while that makes perfect sense, in more ways than one, some of us actually want to win now.  Who helps more this year, a veteran FA or a 3rd round rookie?  A late 3rd rounder at that.

How many years can you keep kicking the can down the road?  Many feel like these last few years were missed opportunities.  Seasons that warranted going all in. 

Now we're down Hue Jackson, Vance Joseph, J Hayes, Marvin Jones, Muhamed Sanu, Andre Smith, Reggie Nelson, Leon Hall, Wallace Gillberry, Sims, Brandon Johnson... This team is drastically changing before are very eyes.  Names like Whitworth and Pacman, even with their deals, are down to 2-3 years left.  AJ Green and Andy Dalton are now about at the halfway point in their careers.  Mauluga is getting old.  The list goes on and on.

Is any time better than now to try to win.  And just to be clear, we're not talking about a 50 million dollar deal.  Are you really saying that we can't afford to spend an extra 3-5 mil, and sacrifice a late 3rd round pick, to improve this roster?

Concerning yourself with hoarding compensatory picks is EXACTLY what plagues this team.  While they hold value and the strategy is sound at times, you cannot be so stubborn and stuck in your ways, that leaves constantly afraid to make a move.

What does it say about this team when you look at recent Superbowl winners and their roster changes (Bennett, Avril, Revis, Talib, Manning, Demarus Ware, ect) and then you look at this team, afraid to sign someone for 5 mil, because they'll lose a compensatory pick?

Give me a freaking break...

You mention a bunch of big names. What big name WR that is available is going to get us over the hump? MJ was the best available. We were willing to compete money wise. He chased #1 status. Roster turnover is a part of the NFL.

We easily could have won the Super Bowl this past year. If Dalton doesnt get hurt we have a good shot. Denver blew their load. We almost beat them with a back up QB. They now dont have a QB, that D is losing pieces, and Von miller thinks olivier vernon money aint shit. They have a ring which could have been ours. But they are looking at that super bowl slump big time.


Our model is is sustainable. Its getting us to the big dance. We just have to seal the deal. If we beat the Steelers that momentum gain would have been huge. 




We were undefeated over half the year. Easily one of the best teams in the league. I think they found a formula that works. We were seconds away from our first playoff win that i would remember. Im not willing to blow that up.

[PDub80]

(03-10-2016, 06:08 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: You mention a bunch of big names. What big name WR that is available is going to get us over the hump? MJ was the best available. We were willing to compete money wise. He chased #1 status. Roster turnover is a part of the NFL.

We easily could have won the Super Bowl this past year. If Dalton doesnt get hurt we have a good shot. Denver blew their load. We almost beat them with a back up QB. They now dont have a QB, that D is losing pieces, and Von miller thinks olivier vernon money aint shit. They have a ring which could have been ours. But they are looking at that super bowl slump big time.


Our model is is sustainable. Its getting us to the big dance. We just have to seal the deal. If we beat the Steelers that momentum gain would have been huge. 




We were undefeated over half the year. Easily one of the best teams in the league. I think they found a formula that works. We were seconds away from our first playoff win that i would remember. Im not willing to blow that up.

I don't think the Bengals necessarily need a do it all veteran as the @ the #2 receiver (which is really the 3rd or 4th option i passing situations). I think they need a veteran player who can do some specific things well (stretch the length of field and perhaps block down field) and draft a guy with a high(ish) ceiling and something immediate in the return game.

- As I mentioned before, The Broncos won with their #1 Thomas and a 5'11" Emmanuel Sanders as their #2. That Emmanuel Sanders type of guy would be great to draft and I think he will be there when the Bengals pick in the form of Corey Coleman.

- In the mean time there are a lot... a LOT of serviceable FAs that can fit the Bengals needs who will be a bargain later in this process. Fans need to be patient and realize that the best FA deals don't usually come on the first day. Who knows where Colston, LaFell, Nicks, White, Wallace, Floyd, Harvin, Jennings, Cotchery could all do well (if healthy) when AJ Green and Eifert are demanding extra attention.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 02:27 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I mean, while that makes perfect sense, in more ways than one, some of us actually want to win now.  Who helps more this year, a veteran FA or a 3rd round rookie?  A late 3rd rounder at that.

How many years can you keep kicking the can down the road?  Many feel like these last few years were missed opportunities.  Seasons that warranted going all in. 

Now we're down Hue Jackson, Vance Joseph, J Hayes, Marvin Jones, Muhamed Sanu, Andre Smith, Reggie Nelson, Leon Hall, Wallace Gillberry, Sims, Brandon Johnson... This team is drastically changing before are very eyes.  Names like Whitworth and Pacman, even with their deals, are down to 2-3 years left.  AJ Green and Andy Dalton are now about at the halfway point in their careers.  Mauluga is getting old.  The list goes on and on.

Is any time better than now to try to win.  And just to be clear, we're not talking about a 50 million dollar deal.  Are you really saying that we can't afford to spend an extra 3-5 mil, and sacrifice a late 3rd round pick, to improve this roster?

Concerning yourself with hoarding compensatory picks is EXACTLY what plagues this team.  While they hold value and the strategy is sound at times, you cannot be so stubborn and stuck in your ways, that leaves constantly afraid to make a move.

What does it say about this team when you look at recent Superbowl winners and their roster changes (Bennett, Avril, Revis, Talib, Manning, Demarus Ware, ect) and then you look at this team, afraid to sign someone for 5 mil, because they'll lose a compensatory pick?

Give me a freaking break...

Everyone wants to win now.

Plus your logic fails.  You can't claim that the Bronco's winning the Superbowl proves their method is infallible when so many teams who did exactly like the Broncos had losing records.

You have to get the idea out of your head that ever free agent helps you win.  That just is not true.  Until you understand that not every free agent works out you will not understand how this all works.

You remind me of a person who takes all of his money to Vegas to gamble and then making fun of his friends who "Don't want to get rich NOW".  Then as you lose all your money all you do is point to the picture of the guy on the casino wall who won a million dollars and continue to call all your friends stupid because that guy proved gambling is the perfect plan to get rich NOW.


Everyone here wants to win.  We just disagree on what nis the best way to do it.  The Broncos winning the Super Bowl proves nothing becaus eplenty of teams that spend heavily on free agents don't win anything.

[Trademark]

Part of me wishes they would give Chad a call he seems to have changed imagine him and Green together

[PDub80]

(03-10-2016, 12:14 PM)Trademark Wrote: Part of me wishes they would give Chad a call he seems to have changed imagine him and Green together

I am 100% on board with this if for nothing than the talking point.

No WAY he is worse than Tate. No WAY. Welllllll, maybe.

[3wt]

(03-09-2016, 08:53 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: According to him, don't look for any UFA to be signed. The only chance they'll get one in FA is if he's someone who's been released because they want the compensatory picks.

Which is pretty much exactly what I didn't want to hear, but almost exactly what I expected to hear after I they said that they budgeted $15m out of a possible $39m+ for free agency. I really don't understand what their hardon for comp picks are.

The only free agent WR we ever got that made a difference was T.O. - and he contributed to the instability we already had festering here.

There are not too many free agent WRs that tend to pan out.   I guess Golden Tate turned out.  Others that come to mind are Moss and Bolden.   I'd be happy if they brought Bolden here.  Other than that I don't have any confidence in FA WRs.   They'll have to draft a receiver that can at least contribute significantly in a limited way.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-10-2016, 09:03 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - In the mean time there are a lot... a LOT of serviceable FAs that can fit the Bengals needs who will be a bargain later in this process. Fans need to be patient and realize that the best FA deals don't usually come on the first day. Who knows where Colston, LaFell, Nicks, White, Wallace, Floyd, Harvin, Jennings, Cotchery could all do well (if healthy) when AJ Green and Eifert are demanding extra attention.

I don't think people are necessarily upset that the Bengals didn't sign a MLJ replacement on the 1st day, it's more that we've all seen enough to know that the Bengals aren't likely to pursue a WR in FA. It's a bit frustrating that the Bengals rely on the draft to solve almost every problem.

(03-10-2016, 09:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Everyone wants to win now.

Plus your logic fails.  You can't claim that the Bronco's winning the Superbowl proves their method is infallible when so many teams who did exactly like the Broncos had losing records.

You have to get the idea out of your head that ever free agent helps you win.  That just is not true.  Until you understand that not every free agent works out you will not understand how this all works.

You remind me of a person who takes all of his money to Vegas to gamble and then making fun of his friends who "Don't want to get rich NOW".  Then as you lose all your money all you do is point to the picture of the guy on the casino wall who won a million dollars and continue to call all your friends stupid because that guy proved gambling is the perfect plan to get rich NOW.


Everyone here wants to win.  We just disagree on what nis the best way to do it.  The Broncos winning the Super Bowl proves nothing becaus eplenty of teams that spend heavily on free agents don't win anything.

Fred I'm pretty sure Wes doesn't believe that "every free agent helps you win". Is that how you win arguments here? By exaggerating someone's stance? I'm pretty sure he's like most of the rational pro-free agency crowd on here and he just wants to see the team "try". Give it an effort. Take a small gamble.

Your Vegas analogy is terrible because nobody on these boards wants to see the Bengals risk losing everything by signing 10 high priced free agents. All most people want to see is a mid-tier free agent or two. That's not like going to Vegas and losing "all your money". That's more like buying a couple scratch offs, except solid free agents have better odds of success.

And I really would like to see a list of teams that made the playoffs at least 2 years in a row - signed a couple mid tier FA's - then missed the playoffs at least partly because of the FA's they signed. The anti-FA crowd likes using terrible teams as examples, but we all know a couple solid FA's aren't going to fix a terrible team. What they can do is help propel a winning team to the next level. 

Honestly, I'm not even sure why you always argue about this. I've seen you say that you wish the Bengals would pursue someone every now and then. It seems we want the same thing. Heaven forbid you agree with Toast Jones though.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

If you're here right now, there is something wrong with us.  Something very, very wrong with us.  We have a Bengals problem.  We know the Bengals' approach to free agency.  At best, they will re-sign their own and bring in veterans off the secondary market.  They had a lot of UFAs to re-sign this year.  So far they have re-signed to starters on defense.  Arguably, their two most important UFAs.  They have lost one starting WR and possibly their #3 WR.  We're you expecting better?  Compared to previous years, I think they have done a good job so far.  Actually, better than I expected.

[PDub80]

(03-10-2016, 12:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think people are necessarily upset that the Bengals didn't sign a MLJ replacement on the 1st day, it's more that we've all seen enough to know that the Bengals aren't likely to pursue a WR in FA. It's a bit frustrating that the Bengals rely on the draft to solve almost every problem.

That formula has worked for the most part. I blame the lack of on field success 100% on the head coach at this point, to be frank. The front office has assembled one of the most talented rosters in the AFC, hell, the entire NFL for a few years now. The head Chef hasn't figured out what to do with the ingredients yet and may never will.

But the FO? They have been down right shrewd! Prudent at the right moments, and opportunistic when called for. Building through the draft is what got the Bengals Warrick, Johnson, Housh, Sanu, Green, Jones, Eifert, etc. etc. Free agency is what landed Coles, Bryant, and TO. Not long term multi year quality guys - but guys looking for money or one last payday. They provided no positive impact to the organisation or team culture.  ESPECIALLY at the WR spot where the FA WRs are typically hired guns and not championship minded guys.

I love what the Bengals are doing and have ZERO issues with their approach. The talent on the roster has NOT been the problem for the Bengals.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-10-2016, 12:45 PM)PDub80 Wrote: That formula has worked for the most part. I blame the lack of on field success 100% on the head coach at this point, to be frank. The front office has assembled one of the most talented rosters in the AFC, hell, the entire NFL for a few years now. The head Chef hasn't figured out what to do with the ingredients yet and may never will.

But the FO? They have been down right shrewd! Prudent at the right moments, and opportunistic when called for. Building through the draft is what got the Bengals Warrick, Johnson, Housh, Sanu, Green, Jones, Eifert, etc. etc. Free agency is what landed Coles, Bryant, and TO. Not long term multi year quality guys - but guys looking for money or one last payday. They provided no positive impact to the organisation or team culture.  ESPECIALLY at the WR spot where the FA WRs are typically hired guns and not championship minded guys.

I love what the Bengals are doing and have ZERO issues with their approach. The talent on the roster has NOT been the problem for the Bengals.

I also like "building through the draft" (which every team tries to do in reality - some are just better at drafting) and I agree we've had enough talent to win in the playoffs. But if this team has no plans to fire Marvin Lewis (they clearly don't), then maybe the FO should think about giving the head chef a couple extra ingredients to spice up that nasty playoff meal we've been eating for 5 years straight.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 12:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Honestly, I'm not even sure why you always argue about this. I've seen you say that you wish the Bengals would pursue someone every now and then. It seems we want the same thing. Heaven forbid you agree with Toast Jones though.

We argue about it because people like Toast Jones claim that anyone who disagrees with him does not want to win.  

We argue about it because people refuse to acknowledge that MANY free agents do not work out.  

We argue because even though the Bengals have a long history of paying top money to keep our best players a lot of people here insist Mike Brown is too cheap to pay top dollar to top players. 

We argue about it because the Bengals spent over the league cap last year and a certain group of people are still obsessed with Mike Brown being cheap.  "Free-agent" threads turn into "practice bubble/gatorade/what we spent in 2011" threads.

Too many people carry grudges that cloud their vision.

RoyalRedlegs posted a link to a very balanced article about the Bengals cap situation this year.  It looked at all the VALID deductions from our $38 million in cap space and said we should have about $27 million available instead of the $15 million that the team announced (through Hobs).  I am still waiting until free agency is finished before I will comment on how much more we should have spent.  

Also the the Bengals have been choosing to roll over the unused cap space instead of taking it as profit like some teams do.  And the reason we were able to spend over the league cap last year was because we had rolled over cap space from the previous year.  The amount of money they were able to roll over this year was smaller because we spent over the cap last year.   

As far as I know the Bengals are the only "family business" in the NFL.  The owners  of every other team (except the publicly held Packers) made their money from some other source before buying an NFL team just for prestige and entertainment.  So I doubt the Bengals will ever be among the biggest spenders in the league.  But recently they have been far from the bottom and in the last couple of years they have been well up in the top half of the league.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2016, 12:45 PM)PDub80 Wrote: But the FO? They have been down right shrewd! 

We have less dead money counting against our cap this year than any other team in the league.  Less than $200K.

A lot of fans would ignore $10 million of dead money if the Bengals spent the full cap amount, but would complain if we only had $1 million in dead money but spent $8 million below the cap.

In that situation we would actually be paying more money to the guys on the team, but fans would complain that we did not spend all of our cap space.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-10-2016, 06:08 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: You mention a bunch of big names. What big name WR that is available is going to get us over the hump? MJ was the best available. We were willing to compete money wise. He chased #1 status. Roster turnover is a part of the NFL.

We easily could have won the Super Bowl this past year. If Dalton doesnt get hurt we have a good shot. Denver blew their load. We almost beat them with a back up QB. They now dont have a QB, that D is losing pieces, and Von miller thinks olivier vernon money aint shit. They have a ring which could have been ours. But they are looking at that super bowl slump big time.


Our model is is sustainable. Its getting us to the big dance. We just have to seal the deal. If we beat the Steelers that momentum gain would have been huge. 




We were undefeated over half the year. Easily one of the best teams in the league. I think they found a formula that works. We were seconds away from our first playoff win that i would remember. Im not willing to blow that up.

Are you really trying to argue that the Cincinnati model is better than Denver?  They went to two Super Bowls in three years, completely remaking their defense after the first loss, and now have another trophy to add to their case.  Meanwhile, the Bengals have not had a single playoff victory in almost three decades,

No one who is on the pro free agency side is arguing to "blow anything up" or to bring in the highest price guy every year.  What is being said is that the addition of quality free agents to supplement a team built through the draft can work well.  Denver brought in free agents, New England the year before that, Seattle the year prior.  It is not a difficult concept to understand.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-10-2016, 01:31 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: No one who is on the pro free agency side is arguing to "blow anything up" or to bring in the highest price guy every year.  What is being said is that the addition of quality free agents to supplement a team built through the draft can work well.  Denver brought in free agents, New England the year before that, Seattle the year prior.  It is not a difficult concept to understand.