Lawsuit: Virginia police officers threatened man during stop

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2021, 01:13 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A minute and a half is a long time to drive after being lit up.  Try running in place for a minute and a half and then tell me if it's a long time or not.

Actually, no, it is not long at all it the driver has his turn signal on and is travelling at a slow rate of speed.  They say he travelled less than a mile.  There is nothing unusual about this at all.

Shocking that a person who claims to be in law enforcement has never heard of someone waiting for a safe place to pull over.  It happens all the time.  In fact women are told to do this at night.

(04-12-2021, 01:13 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is a bullshit characterization of what actually occurred.  The initial officer ordered him to put his hands out of the window how many times before he finally complied?  It was at least around ten times.  Would it take you more than two to finally do what you're being instructed to do?  The "threats" of violence, which consisted of one statement (ride the lightning), only occurred after this dude actively refused to do what he was instructed to do.  He even tried to play the "I'm a veteran" card, like that excuses him from actually following a lawful order.

This is a bullshit characterization of what actually occured.


The gun was out BEFORE there was ever an "initial order".  That is the big problem I have with this situation.  This was a stop for a registration check with no fleeing or running from the police.  If the officer had just walked up to the driver and asked for the registration there would not have been any problem.

The officer was acting crazy under these circumstances.  Why pull a gun and order a person out of a car for a registration violation when the officer could actually see the tag in the rear window?

(04-12-2021, 01:13 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: How about this, next time you get pulled over refuse to do so for a minute and a half.  The when you finally do stop refuse to follow the officer's instructions.  I can guarantee you your experience will mirror this one. 

I have actually driven for more than a minute and a half looking for a place to pull over many times when I have been lighted and I guarantee you the officer did not come out of his car with his gun draw ordering me out of the vehicle.

It has never "mirrored" what happened in this case.

And the big thing to remember is that this driver had done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG TO DESERVE TO BE PULLED OVER IN THE FIRST PLACE.  I don't blame him for being afraid to get out of the car.

[Au165]

Welp, the one who pepper-sprayed him has been fired after IA found he failed to follow policy. They also noted disciplinary actions, which sounds like the other guy, and that department-wide additional training had been required following the event. Sure sounds like the police department is saying the officers were in the wrong here...

[CKwi88]

(04-12-2021, 08:53 AM)Au165 Wrote: Welp, the one who pepper-sprayed him has been fired after IA found he failed to follow policy. They also noted disciplinary actions, which sounds like the other guy, and that department-wide additional training had been required following the event. Sure sounds like the police department is saying the officers were in the wrong here...

I'm sure we'll hear about how it's the police department trying to preemptively placate the masses rather than actual accountability.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-12-2021, 11:55 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: I'm sure we'll hear about how it's the police department trying to preemptively placate the masses rather than actual accountability.

Yeah, no way it could be that, after all, it's not like there are currently riots in other cities over a police involved shooting.  Enjoy reaping what you sow here guys, the skyrocketing crime rates as criminals conduct themselves in ever more brazen manners, given that they have near total support from large swathes of our community without any condition.

See GM, you actually came out on top here.  

[Au165]

(04-12-2021, 12:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, no way it could be that, after all, it's not like there are currently riots in other cities over a police involved shooting.  Enjoy reaping what you sow here guys, the skyrocketing crime rates as criminals conduct themselves in ever more brazen manners, given that they have near total support from large swathes of our community without any condition.

See GM, you actually came out on top here.  

It would be hard to say that it was to placate masses as this occurred months ago and IA found enough wrong before it was public to reprimand as well as require additional training based on this event...all before anyone in the media knew about it. The firing was potentially an escalation of the discipline because of the exposure, however, the findings of wrongdoing predate any outrage which would lend me to believe that they were in fact in the wrong in their actions. 

[CKwi88]

(04-12-2021, 12:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, no way it could be that, after all, it's not like there are currently riots in other cities over a police involved shooting.  Enjoy reaping what you sow here guys, the skyrocketing crime rates as criminals conduct themselves in ever more brazen manners, given that they have near total support from large swathes of our community without any condition.

See GM, you actually came out on top here.  

Maybe as a LEO you're a little too close to the issue to analyze this objectively. It's understandable.

I'll just be over here supporting criminals.

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2021, 10:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: what really escalated the situation was the soldier who can't follow instructions.  Again, it's just indicative of how programmed some people are to see law enforcement in a negative light that they could watch that video and blame the police for the situation.

What escalated the situation was a police officer pulling his gun in a traffic stop for a registration violation.

You response is indicative of how fellow LEO are programed to never see any fault in what another officer does.

One of the officers has been fired. Not sure which one. But he was fired by law enforcement.

[Au165]

(04-12-2021, 12:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, no way it could be that, after all, it's not like there are currently riots in other cities over a police involved shooting.  Enjoy reaping what you sow here guys, the skyrocketing crime rates as criminals conduct themselves in ever more brazen manners, given that they have near total support from large swathes of our community without any condition.

See GM, you actually came out on top here.  

Can you show me some data on these skyrocketing crime rates? I am looking at UCR data from 1960-2019 and I see crime rates dropping and when adjusted for population growth SUBSTANTIALLY dropping over the last 20-30 years. We will get 2020 data in July but I am guessing any sort of increase won't meet any reasonable person's standards of "skyrocketing" especially after such a steep drop over the last couple of decades.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2021, 12:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, no way it could be that, after all, it's not like there are currently riots in other cities over a police involved shooting.  Enjoy reaping what you sow here guys, the skyrocketing crime rates as criminals conduct themselves in ever more brazen manners, given that they have near total support from large swathes of our community without any condition.

See GM, you actually came out on top here.  

So now you are actually accusing other law enforcement officers of supporting criminals?

This is getting comical.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-12-2021, 12:11 PM)Au165 Wrote: It would be hard to say that it was to placate masses as this occurred months ago and IA found enough wrong before it was public to reprimand as well as require additional training based on this event...all before anyone in the media knew about it. The firing was potentially an escalation of the discipline because of the exposure, however, the findings of wrongdoing predate any outrage which would lend me to believe that they were in fact in the wrong in their actions. 

I believe I stated in one of my initial responses that the second officer did things that should incur a reprimand.  I am, slightly, pleased that you acknowledge that his termination just might be due to the publicity this case is now getting.

(04-12-2021, 12:12 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Maybe as a LEO you're a little too close to the issue to analyze this objectively. It's understandable.

I'll just be over here supporting criminals.

Possibly.  As to the latter, whether you know it or not, the current public opinion is breeding a permissive atmosphere for criminal conduct.  Making a simple arrest is often difficult due to the crowds of people who often gather trying to interfere (and no, I'm not talking about filming with their phone from a distance).  But that's what we do in this country, we overreact and over correct.  So, like I said, enjoy the fallout of this new public gestalt, it's going to be ugly for a few years before people start connecting the dots.

[Au165]

(04-12-2021, 12:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I believe I stated in one of my initial responses that the second officer did things that should incur a reprimand.  I am, slightly, pleased that you acknowledge that his termination just might be due to the publicity this case is now getting.

I appreciate you mentioning the reprimand for them saying inappropriate things, however, the investigation and resulting actions were due to misapplication of the department's use of force guideline. This would mean that not only did the officer not say the right things, his response and use of force were also out of line. This would mean coming back full circle, IA found the officers DID NOT handle this situation correctly long before there was any media input into this matter which at least seemed to be your position earlier in the thread (Your position being their actions were warranted).

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-12-2021, 12:39 PM)Au165 Wrote: I appreciate you mentioning the reprimand for them saying inappropriate things, however, the investigation and resulting actions were due to misapplication of the department's use of force guideline. This would mean that not only did the officer not say the right things, his response and use of force were also out of line. This would mean coming back full circle, IA found the officers DID NOT handle this situation correctly long before there was any media input into this matter which at least seemed to be your position earlier in the thread (Your position being their actions were warranted).

Again, not knowing the full story, I can't see them initiating a traffic stop with guns drawn as automatically wrong.  Only one officer made any inappropriate statements, the other actually made a good effort to deescalate the situation.  A lot has been made of conflicting instructions, but the non-compliance started the instant the Lt. stopped the car.  The initial officer had to instruct him to show his hands around ten times before he finally complied.  There were no conflicting instructions at that time.  This was also the time the Lt. felt the need to say he was a servicemen, which has nothing to do with the situation at all.

I've been in a traffic stop in which the van I was in was stopped with guns drawn.  Everyone in the car complied with instructions, we were ordered out of the car, we all did so.  I identified myself as a peace officer once the officers had the scene under control.   Our group was mixed white, Asian and Hispanic btw.  We had zero problems and were able to go on our way once they determined we weren't who they were looking for.  Shocking, I know.

[Au165]

(04-12-2021, 01:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Again, not knowing the full story, I can't see them initiating a traffic stop with guns drawn as automatically wrong.  Only one officer made any inappropriate statements, the other actually made a good effort to deescalate the situation.  A lot has been made of conflicting instructions, but the non-compliance started the instant the Lt. stopped the car.  The initial officer had to instruct him to show his hands around ten times before he finally complied.  There were no conflicting instructions at that time.  This was also the time the Lt. felt the need to say he was a servicemen, which has nothing to do with the situation at all.

I've been in a traffic stop in which the van I was in was stopped with guns drawn.  Everyone in the car complied with instructions, we were ordered out of the car, we all did so.  I identified myself as a peace officer once the officers had the scene under control.   Our group was mixed white, Asian and Hispanic btw.  We had zero problems and were able to go on our way once they determined we weren't who they were looking for.  Shocking, I know.

I could see saying you are a serviceman as a very valid thing to say as to explain why you are dressed in full camo. It could have rightfully been assumed that the aggression could have been attributed to someone in a military getup potentially having weapons in the vehicle. 

I have driven miles with lights on to get to a better spot to get safely off the road and was not approached with guns drawn. Shocking that the response can be so different. Anecdotal experience doesn't really have any large-scale barring on this case or any others though but figured I might as well throw one in too. 

In the end, the officers acted inappropriately as determined by their own system of review. The Chief arrived on the scene and released the Lt. with no charges filed at the time of the event, meaning he did not believe any actions of the Lt. warranted even a misdemeanor at that time. Then, IA found the use of force by the officer to be inappropriate and disciplined the officers while also requiring department-wide re-training. All of these incidents happened BEFORE the media was involved which combined would seem to suggest that the Lt. did nothing wrong, maybe not ideal but not wrong, while the officers most certainly did do something wrong.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-12-2021, 01:12 PM)Au165 Wrote: I could see saying you are a serviceman as a very valid thing to say as to explain why you are dressed in full camo. It could have rightfully been assumed that the aggression could have been attributed to someone in a military getup potentially having weapons in the vehicle.

Possibly and a fair point.  I'd be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if he hadn't been completely non-compliant prior to the statement. 

Quote:I have driven miles with lights on to get to a better spot to get safely off the road and was not approached with guns drawn. Shocking that the response can be so different. Anecdotal experience doesn't really have any large-scale barring on this case or any others though but figured I might as well throw one in too. 

His windows were tinted and they were behind him.  How could they possibly know his ethnicity?  Anecdotal is fine, our personal experiences certainly have more impact on our lives than a national news story.

Quote:In the end, the officers acted inappropriately as determined by their own system of review. The Chief arrived on the scene and released the Lt. with no charges filed at the time of the event, meaning he did not believe any actions of the Lt. warranted even a misdemeanor at that time. Then, IA found the use of force by the officer to be inappropriate and disciplined the officers while also requiring department-wide re-training. All of these incidents happened BEFORE the media was involved which combined would seem to suggest that the Lt. did nothing wrong, maybe not ideal but not wrong, while the officers most certainly did do something wrong.

Again, I don't know the entirety of the circumstances and why they felt the need to initiate a high risk stop.  As to discipline, I honestly can't say without more information, but I can tell you, again anecdotally but from numerous sources, that discipline, especially now, is not an even handed process.  There's so much politics in the mix now.  But I'm sure this will be viewed as my being a bitter LEO who doesn't like that his profession is finally being held to account (i.e. vilified on a national level).

[Au165]

(04-12-2021, 01:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: His windows were tinted and they were behind him.  How could they possibly know his ethnicity?  Anecdotal is fine, our personal experiences certainly have more impact on our lives than a national news story.


Again, I don't know the entirety of the circumstances and why they felt the need to initiate a high risk stop.  As to discipline, I honestly can't say without more information, but I can tell you, again anecdotally but from numerous sources, that discipline, especially now, is not an even handed process.  There's so much politics in the mix now.  But I'm sure this will be viewed as my being a bitter LEO who doesn't like that his profession is finally being held to account (i.e. vilified on a national level).

I never brought up ethnicity. My windows are also tinted...no guns drawn. I was actually stopped because I accelerated rapidly out of my neighborhood and the cop thought I potentially stole something. I may be one of the few here not insinuating this is racially motivated, I am more in the camp that unless they ran the plates and it came back felony once he pulled into the gas station the officers escalated to drawing weapons too quickly, and that’s for any ethnicity.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-12-2021, 01:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: I never brought up ethnicity. My windows are also tinted...no guns drawn. I was actually stopped because I accelerated rapidly out of my neighborhood and the cop thought I potentially stole something. I may be one of the few here not insinuating this is racially motivated, I am more in the camp that unless they ran the plates and it came back felony once he pulled into the gas station the officers escalated to drawing weapons too quickly, and that’s for any ethnicity.

From the story it appears the stop was initiated because there was no visible rear plate.  As to why they initiated a felony stop, the story doesn't say.

[Au165]

(04-12-2021, 02:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: From the story it appears the stop was initiated because there was no visible rear plate.  As to why they initiated a felony stop, the story doesn't say.

The plate was not visible on the un-lit road, however, the temporary plate is clearly visible in the rear window in the lit gas station. They radioed in driving without a plate and tinted windows. He followed that up with an eluding communication and made the self-determination of a "high-risk stop", which escalated this through his own assumptions. At no point does he ever indicate the driver is a danger to the public, driving erratic, or any other behavior that would indicate the need to draw a weapon immediately when exiting a vehicle. The officer's own actions and assumptions escalated the situation, and those assumptions were incorrect.

As I pointed out early in this thread, an officer is 5x more likely to die on the side of the road during a stop from being struck than by the person they stopped. If it became a more widely accepted practice to navigate to safer locations for stops we'd save lives, and could potentially bring down the tension in these situations in general. I know an uncle of mine used to say night stops were the absolute worst part of the job because of the unknown and lack of visibility.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2021, 01:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  but the non-compliance started the instant the Lt. stopped the car. 

The officer drew his gun on a license plate violation before there was any non-compliance.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2021, 01:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   But I'm sure this will be viewed as my being a bitter LEO who doesn't like that his profession is finally being held to account (i.e. vilified on a national level).

Actually I view it as a LEO accusing other LEOs of supporting criminals.

Kind of funny actually.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2021, 01:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I identified myself as a peace officer once the officers had the scene under control.   

Why?