Lawyers.

[hollodero]

Yeah this is not a sophisticated thread. I just wonder about the attourneys I see on US TV these days. Are these really typical US lawyers?

To specify a bit, I think this Stormy Daniels lawyer is quite a slimy figure, going for publicity stunts, loving the attention, skewing words, make half-announcements etc. etc. What a 'showboat'. Well, maybe it's the kind of lawyer one would expect a porn star to get.

But what about all the Trump lawyers? Wouldn't there be a highly respected big law firm one could hire? Instead, he has these guys he has, that aren't any better than the Stormy guy. Michael Cohen, John Dowd, Jay Sekulow. One Saul Goodman after another, or at least one very unhinged lawyer after another. The closest to something like I'd imagine an expensive US lawyer is Ty Cobb, and even he talked publicly in front of a reporter about the investigation, so there's a blunder.

Don't you have decent lawyers? Not even for your president?

[fredtoast]

The problem is that some people would rather win a case in the court of public opinion than in a court of law. In those cases a lawyer who is a great showman is more effective than a great litigator.

When you lose in court you can just claim the system is crooked and rigged against you.

[hollodero]

(04-17-2018, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem is that some people would rather win a case in the court of public opinion than in a court of law.  In those cases a lawyer who is a great showman is more effective than a great litigator.

When you lose in court you can just claim the system is crooked and rigged against you.

Yeah that can't quite be Trump's end game. 
Can it?

Also, at least Stormy got an actual talented showman. I might get her side. But Trump's lawyers aren't even that. I have doubts that Dowd or Sekulow or that totally not been to Prague guy Michael Cohen can convince many people of anything, including those sympathetic to the political cause. 

[Bengalzona]

(04-17-2018, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem is that some people would rather win a case in the court of public opinion than in a court of law.  In those cases a lawyer who is a great showman is more effective than a great litigator.

When you lose in court you can just claim the system is crooked and rigged against you.

^This.

Lawyers for politicians or celebrities (not that there is much difference between the two here... we are sort of like Italy that way) differ greatly from the lawyers normal people hire in everyday life.

I work with and have met a lot of lawyers. They are pretty much all intelligent, hard-working professionals. Most try to keep a low-profile and value (treasure) their privacy. Those who want to be celebrities usually go into politics.

[fredtoast]

(04-17-2018, 02:39 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah that can't quite be Trump's end game. 
Can it?

Also, at least Stormy got an actual talented showman. I might get her side. But Trump's lawyers aren't even that. I have doubts that Dowd or Sekulow or that totally not been to Prague guy Michael Cohen can convince many people of anything, including those sympathetic to the political cause. 

Sorry I wasn't very clear with my post.  I was making more of a general statement about media showboat attorneys. 

I don't know what is up with Trumps current lawyers.  I assume he started out with some of the best and just kept firing them until he came up with a guy that would "work with him".

[hollodero]

(04-17-2018, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry I wasn't very clear with my post.  I was making more of a general statement about media showboat attorneys. 

Yeah I get the showboatery. Although still, woah. It really goes quite far.

(04-17-2018, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know what is up with Trumps current lawyers.  I assume he started out with some of the best and just kept firing them until he came up with a guy that would "work with him".

That makes sense. Although I really wonder how a business could have ever thrived with this "survival of the most incompetent loyalist" system in place.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-17-2018, 05:03 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah I get the showboatery. Although still, woah. It really goes quite far.



That makes sense. Although I really wonder how a business could have ever thrived with this "survival of the most incompetent loyalist" system in place.

I’m guessing the business has lawyers he’s rarely met. The people who do the real work. I doubt guys like this Cohen do the day to day lawyering of the business.

[hollodero]

(04-17-2018, 09:38 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I’m guessing the business has lawyers he’s rarely met. The people who do the real work.  I doubt guys like this Cohen do the day to day lawyering of the business.

I doubt that too, and you're probably right, although it is still confusing. I can't imagine competence prevailing just because the big boss never gets aware of some people. As if Trump weren't a successful businessman because of him, but in spite of him.

[GMDino]

(04-18-2018, 04:51 AM)hollodero Wrote: I doubt that too, and you're probably right, although it is still confusing. I can't imagine competence prevailing just because the big boss never gets aware of some people. As if Trump weren't a successful businessman because of him, but in spite of him.

Pretty much nailed it.

He had a big head start in the race thanks to his daddy and he was/is a great conman.  Once his "brand" (The Trump name) became what he was selling people bought into it.  He has failed repeatedly, to the point that it was getting harder for him to get money for his adventures....which is why foreign money became so vital (Russia).

His management "style", as pointed out many times here on this very board, is to let other people do the "dirty work" while he takes all the credit.  When thing go bad it will be someone else's fault then.  I'd wager he knows very little about what really goes on with his companies.  You can tell by the way he speaks in generalities and will complete full paragraphs without actually saying anything.  Lot's of adjectives (Big, huge, the best) but no substance to the words.

He has "people" to know those things.

He just has to be Trump.

And that worked for him.  Still does with a small percentage of the people who are fascinated by shiny objects and don't care if they are worthless.

[hollodero]

(04-18-2018, 06:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Pretty much nailed it.

He had a big head start in the race thanks to his daddy and he was/is a great conman.  Once his "brand" (The Trump name) became what he was selling people bought into it.  He has failed repeatedly, to the point that it was getting harder for him to get money for his adventures....which is why foreign money became so vital (Russia).

His management "style", as pointed out many times here on this very board, is to let other people do the "dirty work" while he takes all the credit.  When thing go bad it will be someone else's fault then.  I'd wager he knows very little about what really goes on with his companies.  You can tell by the way he speaks in generalities and will complete full paragraphs without actually saying anything.  Lot's of adjectives (Big, huge, the best) but no substance to the words.

He has "people" to know those things.

He just has to be Trump.

And that worked for him.  Still does with a small percentage of the people who are fascinated by shiny objects and don't care if they are worthless.

I more or less see it the same way, still there's a part of me just wondering about the incompetence of these "dirty work" people. Wouldn't one prefer competence in these workers, in general and especially when it comes to legal advice.


But maybe it's true, maybe every respected lawyer knows that they would only damage their own reputation and that Trump is a lost cause because he obviously cannot take advice and tends to go straight for the hornet's nests. But going on that way cannot end good for Trump, no matter if he did something illegal or not. And while I never considered him to be overly intelligent, I cannot imagine he would have made it that far while using these methods.

I still don't care about the affair per se, but the way this Stormy situation was handled legally is so astonishingly unprofessional and awful. Can't wrap my head around that.

[GMDino]

(04-18-2018, 07:51 AM)hollodero Wrote: I more or less see it the same way, still there's a part of me just wondering about the incompetence of these "dirty work" people. Wouldn't one prefer competence in these workers, in general and especially when it comes to legal advice.

Normal people would. Trump wants "winners". So as long as they produce for him he'll keep them. If they make HIM look bad though they are out for being "losers".

He also wants yes men. So all they have to do is keep telling him how great and right he is and they stay on.

(04-18-2018, 07:51 AM)hollodero Wrote: But maybe it's true, maybe every respected lawyer knows that they would only damage their own reputation and that Trump is a lost cause because he obviously cannot take advice and tends to go straight for the hornet's nests.

And there will be always be those lawyers willing to do/say anything to keep the money flowing in.

(04-18-2018, 07:51 AM)hollodero Wrote: But going on that way cannot end good for Trump, no matter if he did something illegal or not. And while I never considered him to be overly intelligent, I cannot imagine he would have made it that far while using these methods.

He has a lot of money. And he's 70+ years old. His mistake was running for POTUS. People who don't care about his money are investigating him. He's not used to/hates that kind of scrutiny...probably in part because he knows he doesn't know half of the things that go on in "his" businesses. That's why all he can do is make blanket statements of "nothing" ever happened and then attack the people who are looking into his actions. He wants to be the biggest guy, the bully. And when he isn't he turns into the whinny little boy that he really is behind the money and image.

(04-18-2018, 07:51 AM)hollodero Wrote: I still don't care about the affair per se, but the way this Stormy situation was handled legally is so astonishingly unprofessional and awful. Can't wrap my head around that.

It is typical Trump: Do whatever he wants,have a slimy underling clean up the mess, deny everything.

But, again, as a private citizen he could get away with a lot more than he can as a public official.

And it must be driving him crazy that he can't just bully people (with threats/bribes/etc) into stopping.

[hollodero]

(04-18-2018, 08:10 AM)GMDino Wrote: And there will be always be those lawyers willing to do/say anything to keep the money flowing in.  

I get the concept. I do not get the extremes this obviously has gone to.

(04-18-2018, 08:10 AM)GMDino Wrote: But, again, as a private citizen he could get away with a lot more than he can as a public official.

Sure, that's obviously true. But that doesn't explain everything. Maybe I'm being naive, but I'd guess wisdoms like "do not use your personal money to pay off women that allege an affair with your client" are quite essential things to know for a professional lawyer.
Now Cohen's possibly into not only shady, but criminal dealings, so there's that. Maybe that was his attractive side for Trump, but I don't want to connect two dots too forcefully. I just cannot explain how this guy got to be around in the first place, how that could ever have worked out, public official or not. That Stormy agreement is just bad, bad work, can't imagine that guy is actually a genius normally. Yeah, there's no real point to all that again, that's just amazing stuff.

(04-18-2018, 08:10 AM)GMDino Wrote: And it must be driving him crazy that he can't just bully people (with threats/bribes/etc) into stopping.

Well, he still got all these Republicans around.

[Bengalzona]

Helpful info on 'Muricans:

http://www.fashionbeans.com/content/odd-things-about-america-that-americans-havent-realized/11121?rtg=higherpersp-dUebeo¶m4=fsb-fni-fbss-1334-us-de-pengage¶m5=10154383423621186¶m6=23842700681680595

[Bengalzona]

[*michaelsean*]

(04-18-2018, 10:18 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Helpful info on 'Muricans:

http://www.fashionbeans.com/content/odd-things-about-america-that-americans-havent-realized/11121?rtg=higherpersp-dUebeo¶m4=fsb-fni-fbss-1334-us-de-pengage¶m5=10154383423621186¶m6=23842700681680595

I’m having a hard time believing foreigners are as baffled by certain things listed here as the author has us think.

[CKwi88]

(04-18-2018, 11:08 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I’m having a hard time believing foreigners are as baffled by certain things listed here as the author has us think.

There are a lot of things that are tough to perceive when you live here. When I moved back to the USA 4 years ago with my wife she was certainly overwhelmed by at least 4 or 5 of the things on that list. We still routinely have a game in the car where we count the amount of flags you see.


As to the OP, from my experience working in a courthouse and courtrooms, the "flashy" lawyers are kind of like religious nuts. They are a minority, and unfortunately can overshadow the rest.

Then again, if the lawyers showed on TV were actual representations of your average attorney, it would make for some pretty boring TV most of the time.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(04-17-2018, 02:19 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah this is not a sophisticated thread. I just wonder about the attourneys I see on US TV these days. Are these really typical US lawyers?

To specify a bit, I think this Stormy Daniels lawyer is quite a slimy figure, going for publicity stunts, loving the attention, skewing words, make half-announcements etc. etc. What a 'showboat'. Well, maybe it's the kind of lawyer one would expect a porn star to get.

But what about all the Trump lawyers? Wouldn't there be a highly respected big law firm one could hire? Instead, he has these guys he has, that aren't any better than the Stormy guy. Michael Cohen, John Dowd, Jay Sekulow. One Saul Goodman after another, or at least one very unhinged lawyer after another. The closest to something like I'd imagine an expensive US lawyer is Ty Cobb, and even he talked publicly in front of a reporter about the investigation, so there's a blunder.

Don't you have decent lawyers? Not even for your president?

What do you call a 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?



























A good start 





One of my uncles loves lawyer jokes like that one, because he is one.  Seriously though, you never here from the quiet professionals (like him).  Actually I have 5 lawyers in my family.  3 uncles and 2 cousins and one of those cousins is also a small town municipal judge.  However once one gets into politics one is in the public eye and therefore you will see more of a showman especially in high profile cases such as this.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-18-2018, 11:20 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: There are a lot of things that are tough to perceive when you live here. When I moved back to the USA 4 years ago with my wife she was certainly overwhelmed by at least 4 or 5 of the things on that list. We still routinely have a game in the car where we count the amount of flags you see.


As to the OP, from my experience working in a courthouse and courtrooms, the "flashy" lawyers are kind of like religious nuts. They are a minority, and unfortunately can overshadow the rest.

Then again, if the lawyers showed on TV were actual representations of your average attorney, it would make for some pretty boring TV most of the time.

Oh I don't doubt there are some things, I just think he made up a few.  The free refills?  Like an English guy is left stunned because something so bad for us is so cheap.  

I'm stunned that Austria looks like a penis. (Just saw that one last night, Hollerdero)

[hollodero]

(04-18-2018, 12:25 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Oh I don't doubt there are some things, I just think he made up a few.

Yeah, we do know about the concept of tipping, we also waste water and, yeah well, some things are not that peculiar. Other things are true, like the thing with the flag, that really is odd to see.
Also, some things definitely should be on that list that aren't.

(04-18-2018, 12:25 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I'm stunned that Austria looks like a penis. (Just saw that one last night, Hollerdero)

But it really does not. At least not like a healthy one. I have no idea why people would call my country phallic, unless everything looks like a penis to them.

Your looking for a penis, try Sweden + Finland.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-18-2018, 01:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, we do know about the concept of tipping, we also waste water and, yeah well, some things are not that peculiar. Other things are true, like the thing with the flag, that really is odd to see.
Also, some things definitely should be on that list that aren't.



But it really does not. At least not like a healthy one. I have no idea why people would call my country phallic, unless everything looks like a penis to them.

Your looking for a penis, try Sweden + Finland.

I agree on the Austria thing.  First thing I did when I saw that BBT for the first time was look at a map of Austria.  I didn't see it either.