Left -vs- Right

[hollodero]

(07-07-2015, 10:12 AM)michaelsean Wrote: We've done pretty well for ourselves and produced a hell of a lot for the rest of the world, and I don't mean that arrogantly.  Just that not everyone has to do things the same.  We are the descendents of immigrants, and those immigrants didn't come here for more vacation time or free college.  We just think differently, and there's nothing wrong with that.  

Hey, of course. Don't get me wrong, you indeed did a lot of things quite well. Maybe you are the greatest country in the world, I couldn't judge. But even if you're doing good, there's always things that could be better.
Forgive me, but from my perspective the US is far from perfect. That's no disrespect. Every other country, mine included, is even further away from perfect. But you have some issues, you cannot really deny that. And there might be things that Europe actually does better; and where you could learn something, like we learn from you all the time. Like how comes we have less crime, better health and free education and all that stuff that are never bad things for a society.

Or shortly: The mere existence of socialism didn't throw us into oblivion, but had actually some pleasant effects. I feel your irrational fear of the word alone narows your sight a little.

[*michaelsean*]

Oh no we are not perfect, but two places doing things differently doesn't mean either is wrong. If paying for everyone going to college is what you want to do in Austria, I have no problem with that, but it's not what I want to do here, and of course it isn't really free.

I'm not sure what you mean by my irrational fear of the world.

I have no problem learning from other countries. I know it's not a big thing, but I've always thought we should be better with teaching languages. Europeans are much better at becoming fluent or close to it in at least one other language.

[Rotobeast]

(07-06-2015, 01:00 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Stop voting for democrats and vote third party.  

and I totally agree with you on the current system of parties.....  We need more parties.    Wish more would vote 3rd party.

I believe parties need to be eliminated and candidates run on their own merit.
There are too many people who vote straight ticket or back someone based merely on party.
I'd also like to see campaign donations lumped into one fund and used by an independent counsel to provide brochures and websites disclosing all information about the candidates.

[hollodero]

(07-07-2015, 03:54 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Oh no we are not perfect, but two places doing things differently doesn't mean either is wrong.  If paying for everyone going to college is what you want to do in Austria, I have no problem with that, but it's not what I want to do here, and of course it isn't really free.  

I'm not sure what you mean by my irrational fear of the world.

I have no problem learning from other countries.  I know it's not a big thing, but I've always thought we should be better with teaching languages.  Europeans are much better at becoming fluent or close to it in at least one other language.

Fear of socialism... just socialism... :) not the world. The WORD... :)


"Free" education means... you can study, get out of your studies and start your life without a huge debt as startup package. An idea that actually should somehow apply to americvan ways... help those who help themselves and all that. "Free" education - which means affordable for everyone - leads to more critical people, which is a good thing for a democracy. Just an opinion. I can't convince anyone of course that that's the better way, I just strongly feel so. But it's not about me convincing anyone or about you doing the same things we do. I wouldn't want to be that arrogant, and I never meant it that way. I merely talked about the absence of these voices in your debates. The absence of a "left". You don't have to follow left-wing ideas to appreciate that the ideas are there to be discussed.
I don't really know if I can make myself clear...


...but so be it. I find i slightly amusing that you think our learning languages faster is our most valuable asset :)

[fredtoast]

(07-06-2015, 10:41 PM)GMDino Wrote: So liberals running for office have said they "hate god"?

Almost every liberal elected to office across the country claims to be a Christian.

Lucy is not even trying anymore.  I am a little disappointed.  He was fun for a while, but now he is just turning into another joke.

[*bfine32*]

(07-07-2015, 08:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Almost every Christian elected to office across the country claims to be a Christian.

I'd say it's close to 100%. 

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 08:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd say it's close to 100%. 

If not more.

Derp.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-07-2015, 02:37 PM)hollodero Wrote: Fear of socialism... just socialism... :) not the world. The WORD... :)


"Free" education means... you can study, get out of your studies and start your life without a huge debt as startup package. An idea that actually should somehow apply to americvan ways... help those who help themselves and all that. "Free" education - which means affordable for everyone - leads to more critical people, which is a good thing for a democracy. Just an opinion. I can't convince anyone of course that that's the better way, I just strongly feel so. But it's not about me convincing anyone or about you doing the same things we do. I wouldn't want to be that arrogant, and I never meant it that way. I merely talked about the absence of these voices in your debates. The absence of a "left". You don't have to follow left-wing ideas to appreciate that the ideas are there to be discussed.
I don't really know if I can make myself clear...


...but so be it. I find i slightly amusing that you think our learning languages faster is our most valuable asset :)

See how valuable it is?  You write English better than i read it.   I didn't say that was your most valuable asset.  I said it was a small thing, and it's not faster it's at all.

I don't know where you got the idea there is no voice for things like free college in the US.  There are plenty of people both elected and ordinary citizens who think exactly that.  You'd be hard pressed to find anything from the left side of the spectrum that doesn't have a voice.  Hell go to any American left wing sites and you can will find circle jerks over anything European.  A chunk of the American left thinks we are a bunch of rubes that are millenia behind Europe.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-06-2015, 11:44 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I know I'm pretty liberal, but some of this is kinda ridiculous. 

First there is not a single Dem or Rep that I'm aware of that is not religious, or does not believe in God.  2nd it's all political.  Meaning no politician would be elected saying they aren't religious or don't believe in god.  Both parties have to pander to the religious.  Here's the rub, most in this country aren't deeply religious, most even if they are religious find it to more of a personal thing, something that the government has no control of. 

Here is how I think most view the Reps and Dems.

Reps:  I'm uber Christian and plan to legislate that way.

Dems:  Yea I'm Christian (or Jewish), but it's no big deal.  That's my thing not yours, but we're going to make sure everyone is treated the same.

Ofc your this way... Your not a far left progressive .... You believe it's ok for others to have opinions and make their own choices. The people who force their beliefs on others is the problem i have.... And that cuts both parties.... Progressives, neocons, evangelicals, socialists.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2015, 08:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Almost every liberal elected to office across the country claims to be a Christian.

Lucy is not even trying anymore.  I am a little disappointed.  He was fun for a while, but now he is just turning into another joke.

Ofc they are gonna say it.... They would never get elected. Obama is a perfect example . Had he said he was an atheist like he is .... He wouldn't have had a chance.

Saying your christian and being christian are not the same thing.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2015, 05:59 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I believe parties need to be eliminated and candidates run on their own merit.
There are too many people who vote straight ticket or back someone based merely on party.
I'd also like to see campaign donations lumped into one fund and used by an independent counsel to provide brochures and websites disclosing all information about the candidates.

Agreed.

I am no fan of the two party system. But the third parties kill themselves with outrageous platforms that aren't going to appeal enough to pull away support. The libertarian party is a perfect example.... They always push all drugs legal.. Knowing that the majority don't wanna see Heroin legal. They could run in legalizing pot.... At this point any non progressive policies are gonna need to be gradually walked back.... Not ripping the band aid off.

I would throw in the greens but they are looking like the democrats now. Radical and socialist.

[orangeandblackblood]

(07-05-2015, 12:33 PM)hollodero Wrote: The democrats are not "left". You have a right party and a center party. That's it. Believe me, I'm European.
"Communism" and "Democrats" on one side, that just looks absurd.

Exactly. I have heard this many times from my European friends.
We have no "left" to choose.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-08-2015, 07:09 AM)orangeandblackblood Wrote: Exactly. I have heard this many times from my European friends.
We have no "left" to choose.

Which left ideal has no voice?

[GMDino]

(07-08-2015, 09:55 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Which left ideal has no voice?

I'd say they all have a "voice" but to call the Democratic "left" is the misnomer.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-08-2015, 10:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'd say they all have a "voice" but to call the Democratic "left" is the misnomer.

OK which left ideals are there not a significant number of elected Democrats in favor of? Universal healthcare?  Free college?  

[GMDino]

(07-08-2015, 10:27 AM)michaelsean Wrote: OK which left ideals are there not a significant number of elected Democrats in favor of? Universal healthcare?  Free college?  

I guess it depends on how far left you go.

If we are one only a handful of nations that doesn't have universal health care is that a "left" ideal?  Or just a human one?

[*michaelsean*]

(07-08-2015, 10:32 AM)GMDino Wrote: I guess it depends on how far left you go.

If we are one only a handful of nations that doesn't have universal health care is that a "left" ideal?  Or just a human one?

Those are just two examples.  I'm curious what Hollodero or someone else would consider a left wing ideal that doesn't have significant support in the Democratic Party.  I'm not saying there isn't, I just don't know what it is.

[hollodero]

(07-08-2015, 11:02 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Those are just two examples.  I'm curious what Hollodero or someone else would consider a left wing ideal that doesn't have significant support in the Democratic Party.  I'm not saying there isn't, I just don't know what it is.

Yeah, I can't say either.

Left-wing ideals? Keeping things public comes to mind. The state as owner of not only supplies, but also some companies. Basic income and minimum wages. Or let's say workers rights. Unions and industrial councils. Obligations for employers. A social net for everyone. Taxing the rich. Capital taxes, capital gains taxes, measaures up to redistributions. A flatter income pyramid. Bank supervision. Governmental health care, with private insurance companies only as an add-on. Gun control :). Less convictions and jail time. Free access to education. No warmongering :) --- I'll better stop here.

Are those all good things? Probably not. Are people in the US expressing these views? I sure think so, the US is huge and full of people. I'm not so sure if these voices are significant. Your election campaigns sure don't focus on any of these issues. 
Then again, election campaigns are always awful, here and at your place. Speaking of those; let's call this a left-wing ideal: No private spending for campaigns! The state provides the budget for those. A lot of money, and yeah, the tax payers pays for it. That would be an ideal that sure sounds left and which is not even thinkable in the US, I feel. Here it's common sense. What your politicians have to do to raise money is unspeakable. 30 hours and more a week, from what I've heard, an american politician spends on talking to some rich prick begging for money. And if I ask myself - who is it I'd rather like funding my leaders? Us all or those guys? I get all left wing by myself. Money dictates the US, and no major ambition, no politician, no party can go without some patron funding it. Which leads to another "left-wing" ideal: A "state TV" amongst all those privates, bound to certain rules. So many of your citizens are getting their information from biased TV, and in fact the whole media is funded by those same people who fund the campaigns. I mean, OK, your way and all that, but I always wondered why Americans seem to be so cool with that.

[*michaelsean*]

Virtually all of those things would be supported by a large percentage of Democratic politicians. Right here on this board you will find plenty of people who support government paid elections, universal healthcare and strict gun control. We already have a safety net for everyone. We have unions and a minimum wage.

What do you mean by a flatter tax pyramid?

Who controls your state run tv? Who decides what is covered and how its covered?

Which industries does your government supply and or own?

[GodHatesBengals]

A nice, tidy, clean chart for people who don't want to spend too much time doing something hard like "not classifying individuals as part of some synthetic group to make thinking easier".