Let's clear up this Trump/Dictator narrative.

[HarleyDog]

We've heard the left-wing media claim that if Trump is elected, he will become a dictator. This is nearly impossible for a US President to accomplish. It's just more propaganda using words taken out of context trying to influence voters with misinformation. So, to help prove how badly the American people have been lied to, I asked Bing Copilot, "Can a US President make himself a dictator" and here is the explanation I received:

No, a U.S. president cannot make himself a dictator due to the system of checks and balances established by the U.S. Constitution. The presidency is an office of vast powers that are also maddeningly constrained for anyone with dictatorial aspirations[color=var(--cib-color-foreground-accent-primary)]1[/color]. The American political system includes multiple safeguards against such a concentration of power, including the separation of powers among the three branches of government: the executive, legislative, and judicial.


The legislative branch (Congress) has the power to pass laws, control federal spending, and has the authority to impeach and remove a president who commits “high crimes and misdemeanors.” The judicial branch (courts) can declare presidential actions unconstitutional, and even the president’s own appointees can refuse to carry out orders they deem illegal or unconstitutional.


Moreover, the U.S. has a strong tradition of civilian control of the military, which means that military leaders are bound by oath to follow lawful orders but also have a duty to refuse unlawful ones. This tradition acts as another check on any president attempting to use military power to become a dictator.


While history shows that many dictators first came to power through elections, they did so by subsequently altering laws and institutions to consolidate power[color=var(--cib-color-foreground-accent-primary)]2[/color]. In the U.S., such changes would require broad support in Congress and among the states, which is difficult to achieve given the country’s political diversity and institutional checks.

In summary, while it’s theoretically possible for a president to attempt to gain dictatorial powers, the U.S. political system is designed with multiple layers of protection to prevent this from happening.


Reference Links:


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/2016-donald-trump-dictator-fascist-checks-and-balances-us-politics-government-213978/



https://verdict.justia.com/2019/06/13/elected-dictators-the-limits-of-what-government-officials-can-do-with-their-power



https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/28/a-trump-dictatorship-is-possible-but-not-in-four-years-00137949



https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/eric-posner-counters-arguments-second-trump-term-would-be-dictatorship

[BigPapaKain]

Yeah I'm not reading all of that gaslighting BS. I've read their agenda. It'll be as democratic as Russia if the GoP and the Federalist Society gets its way.

But go on - keep believing the easily proven lies they're spewing out. Just do it honestly.

[hollodero]

Well, I don't think many people believe Trump will actually become a dictator. I assume something akin to that would be his full intention though, and what that could result in is a constitutional crisis, also violence and unrest, and in the lng run a weakening of the structures that could make authoritarianism a little more obtainable - for the next guy.

As for his intentions. Trump openly thrives for absolute immunity as president, eg. for being allowed to do whatever he wants as he puts it, and that is an idea as dictator-like as they come. And it's not like there's a clear contradiction to that demand, apparently no one knows for certain whether a sitting president can be indicted or - as his lawyers argue - has a licence to kill. I'm not quite sure who will reign him in with authority - and with what authority - should he just disregard the checks and balances system. What happens if he just fires a SC. What happens if his party has a majority in the houses and are way too afraid to ever go against him - a situation that imho was already close to manifest itself. What happens if he calls state secretaries and demands they find him votes, and then they actually do find him votes. These are the things that I'm wondering about, and certrainly also worrying about.

[HarleyDog]

(06-28-2024, 05:08 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Yeah I'm not reading all of that gaslighting BS. I've read their agenda. It'll be as democratic as Russia if the GoP and the Federalist Society gets its way.

But go on - keep believing the easily proven lies they're spewing out. Just do it honestly.

Tin foil hats are not good for you. Since AP is positively regarded in here, here's your link: https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72 

Quote:TUSCALOOSA, Ala. (AP) — As Donald Trump faces growing scrutiny over his increasingly authoritarian and violent rhetoric, Fox News host Sean Hannity gave his longtime friend a chance to assure the American people that he wouldn’t abuse power or seek retribution if he wins a second term.


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But instead of offering a perfunctory answer brushing off the warnings, Trump stoked the fire.
“Except for day one,” the GOP front-runner said Tuesday night before a live audience in Davenport, Iowa. “I want to close the border, and I want to drill, drill, drill.”

And in case anyone missed it, he reenacted the exchange.

“We love this guy,” Trump said of Hannity. “He says, ‘You’re not going to be a dictator, are you?’ I said: ‘No, no, no, other than day one. We’re closing the border, and we’re drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I’m not a dictator.’”

[HarleyDog]

(06-28-2024, 05:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, I don't think many people believe Trump will actually become a dictator. I assume something akin to that would be his full intention though, and what that could result in is a constitutional crisis, also violence and unrest, and in the lng run a weakening of the structures that could make authoritarianism a little more obtainable - for the next guy.

As for his intentions. Trump openly thrives for absolute immunity as president, eg. for being allowed to do whatever he wants as he puts it, and that is an idea as dictator-like as they come. And it's not like there's a clear contradiction to that demand, apparently no one knows for certain whether a sitting president can be indicted or - as his lawyers argue - has a licence to kill. I'm not quite sure who will reign him in with authority - and with what authority - should he just disregard the checks and balances system. What happens if he just fires a SC. What happens if his party has a majority in the houses and are way too afraid to ever go against him - a situation that imho was already close to manifest itself. What happens if he calls state secretaries and demands they find him votes, and then they actually do find him votes. These are the things that I'm wondering about, and certrainly also worrying about.

He can't run a 3rd term.

[CJD]

Just as a hypothetical, if a democracy is led by someone who detests democracy, do you think they can use the powers given to them by the people to slowly/gradually erode the democratic principles that prevent a single person of small group of persons from seizing power indefinitely?

That is to say, is it possible to corrupt a democracy?

After all, democracy is not a naturally occurring system unique to America. It's a system implemented by people who want to protect the rights of its citizens and democracy itself must be protected against people who yearn for more power. That's why documents like the constitution were written in the first place. But they are not infallible and can be corrupted or worked around given enough time and effort.

Now, do I think that Trump is capable of this corruption?

Ehh...He may try, but I don't think he is capable enough to actually succeed. At the very least, I don't think Trump respects democracy. He expects to win and any time he doesn't win, he believes is a conspiracy against him. even with no evidence. That kind of thinking is dangerous in the highest office in the country.

In other words, if you gave Trump a little red button that said, "become a dictator," I think he'd press it.

And as for the things he said "out of context," or "as a joke," I think a lot of people "joke" about things they want to do, gauge the reaction and then decide if they really believe it based on the reaction they receive. Internet scholars call this behavior, "Schrodinger's Douchebag," where you decide if something inflammatory you say is a joke or a sincere belief depending on people's reaction to it.

I think that's what Trump was likely doing when he said he'd be a dictator for a day.

[BigPapaKain]

(06-28-2024, 05:13 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Tin foil hats are not good for you. Since AP is positively regarded in here, here's your link: https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72 

It's not a conspiracy when they openly admit it.

[HarleyDog]

(06-28-2024, 05:15 PM)CJD Wrote: In other words, if you gave Trump a little red button that said, "become a dictator," I think he'd press it.

I can't argue with this. I don't know if he would or not, but his ego is pretty big.

Quote:And as for the things he said "out of context," or "as a joke," I think a lot of people "joke" about things they want to do, gauge the reaction and then decide if they really believe it based on the reaction they receive. Internet scholars call this behavior, "Schrodinger's Douchebag," where you decide if something inflammatory you say is a joke or a sincere belief depending on people's reaction to it.

I have never heard of this and thought you were joking. Thanks for linking it.

Quote:I think that's what Trump was likely doing when he said he'd be a dictator for a day.

It's possible. I'm just putting it out there because it's nearly impossible, and the misinformation unnecessarily fears people.

[hollodero]

(06-28-2024, 05:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: He can't run a 3rd term.

Well, sure, that rule existed in many democracies and it got lifted quite often, for Orban, Erdogan, Morales, Putin and I'm sure a dozen others. I wouldn't know exactly what would need to happen in the US, but what if he just does run anyways? Probably can't indict him over it, the right senate won't impeach and the RNC would probably comply.

But even if he's not, as I said, I don't worry so much about Trump becoming a dictator, I worry about the next guy that finds some loosened screws. And to be honest. US democracy in its current form seems less and less sustainable by the minute. People are sick of it and I can not even blame them.

[CJD]

(06-28-2024, 05:23 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I can't argue with this. I don't know if he would or not, but his ego is pretty big.


I have never heard of this and thought you were joking. Thanks for linking it.


It's possible. I'm just putting it out there because it's nearly impossible, and the misinformation unnecessarily fears people.

The term exists, but calling wikipedia "internet scholars" was definitely tongue in cheek

[HarleyDog]

(06-28-2024, 05:24 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, sure, that rule existed in many democracies and it got lifted quite often, for Orban, Erdogan, Morales, Putin and I'm sure a dozen others. I wouldn't know exactly what would need to happen in the US, but what if he just does run anyways? Probably can't indict him over it, the right senate won't impeach and the RNC would probably comply.

But even if he's not, as I said, I don't worry so much about Trump becoming a dictator, I worry about the next guy that finds some loosened screws. And to be honest. US democracy in its current form seems less and less sustainable by the minute. People are sick of it and I can not even blame them.

I don't blame them either Hollo. It's sad.

[CKwi88]

"Trust me, I Googled Binged it" is hardly very convincing.

Trump has worked to weaken our institutions. Our legislative branch is as weak as it has ever been in modern times. More and more power has been transferred to the executive branch over the years. And both party's proclivity to stack the courts with "their guys" has also eroded confidence in our judiciary. The eroding of those checks and balances and sinking into dictatorship is a tale as old as time from Alexander to Chávez.

Denying that Trump presents a threat to our institutions and to our democracy is no different than denying that Biden has a significantly impaired mental capacity. The difference is that Trump is surrounded by sycophants and bootlickers that are too afraid to challenge him. A second Trump term will be little more than a revenge tour. Trump is too much of a sociopathic narcissist to give two squirts of piss about anyone other than himself. And people still falling in line behind him and not realizing that is pathetic. 

[hollodero]

(06-28-2024, 05:26 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't blame them either Hollo. It's sad.

True.

Just saying, this of course is another condition to be met for an authoritarian turn. Safeguards, checks and balances are fine, but when a majority doesn't want this form of democracy any longer, imho democracy is still in trouble. Even Bels called for a revolution recently and made clear that he's dead serious about it, and I can't blame him either. But if the current system crumbles and falls, then imho eventually all bets are off. Might turn better, might turn grim. With Trump, I for one fear the latter, at the same time I will have to start rooting for him and hoping he is way better than I perceive him to be. Here's to hoping I will eventually look like a derangement-syndrome-riddled fool. What a toast.

[HarleyDog]

(06-28-2024, 05:26 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: "Trust me, I Googled Binged it" is hardly very convincing.

I knew someone would point this fact out. Look, I was at work and just didn't want to waste my time looking for a compilation of articles to read. Lazy Approach? Guilty. But it doesn't make the information any less valuable to consider. 

[HarleyDog]

(06-28-2024, 05:42 PM)hollodero Wrote: Might turn better, might turn grim. With Trump, I for one fear the latter, at the same time I will have to start rooting for him and hoping he is way better than I perceive him to be. Here's to hoping I will eventually look like a derangement-syndrome-riddled fool. What a toast.

Man, you are really hard on yourself. We learned the evil of politics. Last night was a "Weekend at Bernie's" moment. You only read what your given and make your best decision with that information. If everything works out like you portray, then we are both fools cause I wouldn't see it coming either.

[hollodero]

(06-28-2024, 07:07 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Man, you are really hard on yourself. We learned the evil of politics. Last night was a "Weekend at Bernie's" moment. You only read what your given and make your best decision with that information. If everything works out like you portray, then we are both fools cause I wouldn't see it coming either.

It's just a bizarre position for me having to desperately hope to be dead wrong, in this case about Trump. I don't love being dead wrong.

And if I'm right, well there's nothing to celebrate about that either. Disclaimer, I really do not know how things will work out, I'm just worried.

[*jason*]

(06-28-2024, 05:12 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, I don't think many people believe Trump will actually become a dictator. I assume something akin to that would be his full intention though, and what that could result in is a constitutional crisis, also violence and unrest, and in the lng run a weakening of the structures that could make authoritarianism a little more obtainable - for the next guy.

As for his intentions. Trump openly thrives for absolute immunity as president, eg. for being allowed to do whatever he wants as he puts it, and that is an idea as dictator-like as they come. And it's not like there's a clear contradiction to that demand, apparently no one knows for certain whether a sitting president can be indicted or - as his lawyers argue - has a licence to kill. I'm not quite sure who will reign him in with authority - and with what authority - should he just disregard the checks and balances system. What happens if he just fires a SC. What happens if his party has a majority in the houses and are way too afraid to ever go against him - a situation that imho was already close to manifest itself. What happens if he calls state secretaries and demands they find him votes, and then they actually do find him votes. These are the things that I'm wondering about, and certrainly also worrying about.

Yes... Trump is so half assed and over his head, but if someone savvy were ever come along with dictatorial ambitions, they could get a lot farther.

[Millhouse]

I can't see this happening based on the sole fact that Trump is so full of shit he will say anything knowing it will stir people up. Plus there are more powerful groups out there than him if elected that if their power and wealth gets interrupted by misguided ambitions of his, they probably won't let it happen.

Remember when he said in an interview that 'he doesn't like those that are captured (in war)', when referring to John McCain who spent five years as a POW. Did he actually mean it, or was it just more bs he spewed that was simply brushed off while he convinced a large portion of his fan base to hate John McCain who then smeared him for being a POW. Again, he has a long history of bullshit which means he shouldn't be taken seriously. Then again, maybe he meant that about POWs who were captured, hard to tell.

On a side note, ever since he gave that interview I hated him ever since. That was also when the late General Colin Powell who was a Republican denounced him forever as well. And in my opinion anyone that has any knowledge of wars that the U.S. has fought in with soldiers being captured from Confederate POW caps like Andersonville to the Bataan death march in WW2 to Vietnam and the middle east wars, should have denounced for that statement. Unfortunately many did not that still support him.

[*pally*]

No country starts off electing a dictator. It happens when a power-mad authoritarian has a willing base of supporters,, legislature, judicial system. and enough of the military supporting him to trample people's rights

They take over democratic norms by small cuts with too many people ignoring what is going on either because they agree with that move or because things aren't affecting them...yet. By the time they do, it is too late

This is why people sound the alarms when SCOTUS allows public officials to be bribed in forms of "gratuities", or allows dark money in politics by giving anonymously funded groups equal rights to individuals, or turns their heads and allows blatant political gerrymandering (on both sides) essentially allowing the party in power to stay in power forever. Far too many states have single-party rule with legislative supermajorities. In those states, political minorities have no power whatsoever.

It is why we sound the alarm when places like Florida remove the ability to properly teach "controversial" subjects or the freedom to access any book. It is why people fight laws forcing religious teaching into the public schools or vouchers which take public tax money from the public schools and give it to religious private schools.

It was why the idea of gutting the civil service system to place loyalists to an individual into government jobs as outlined in Project 2025 is so frightening.

We fear Trump's dictator narrative because we listen to what he says, what his primary supporters (the ones who will be in positions of power) say, and what his voters say. We fear because we've actually read ALL of Project 2025 and understand the implications of his blueprint. We fear because we've seen the judicial rulings of the judges he appointed in his first term. We sound the alarm because we studied history and have seen it happen to other countries.

So far Trump has been successful in undercutting people's faith in elections, the media, the Justice system. He has set neighbors against neighbors with his rhetoric. He demonizes his detractors and portrays them as enemies who must be vanquished. "if you aren't with ME you are against America" He has taken Republicans from a party loyal to conservative ideas to a party lhere loyalty to Trump first and foremost

Trusting the system not to fail is a dangerous mindset

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-29-2024, 11:31 AM)pally Wrote: No country starts off electing a dictator.  It happens when a power-mad authoritarian has a willing base of supporters,, legislature, judicial system. and enough of the military supporting him to trample people's rights

They take over democratic norms by small cuts with too many people ignoring what is going on either because they agree with that move or because things aren't affecting them...yet.  By the time they do, it is too late

This is why people sound the alarms when SCOTUS allows public officials to be bribed in forms of "gratuities", or allows dark money in politics by giving anonymously funded groups equal rights to individuals, or turns their heads and allows blatant political gerrymandering (on both sides) essentially allowing the party in power to stay in power forever.  Far too many states have single-party rule with legislative supermajorities.  In those states, political minorities have no power whatsoever.

It is why we sound the alarm when places like Florida remove the ability to properly teach "controversial" subjects or the freedom to access any book.  It is why people fight laws forcing religious teaching into the public schools or vouchers which take public tax money from the public schools and give it to religious private schools.

It was why the idea of gutting the civil service system to place loyalists to an individual into government jobs as outlined in Project 2025 is so frightening.

We fear Trump's dictator narrative because we listen to what he says, what his primary supporters (the ones who will be in positions of power) say, and what his voters say.  We fear because we've actually read ALL of Project 2025 and understand the implications of his blueprint.  We fear because we've seen the judicial rulings of the judges he appointed in his first term.  We sound the alarm because we studied history and have seen it happen to other countries.  

So far Trump has been successful in undercutting people's faith in elections, the media, the Justice system.  He has set neighbors against neighbors with his rhetoric.  He demonizes his detractors and portrays them as enemies who must be vanquished. "if you aren't with ME you are against America"  He has taken Republicans from a party loyal to conservative ideas to a party lhere loyalty to Trump first and foremost

Trusting the system not to fail is a dangerous mindset