Let's talk about income inequality

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2015, 03:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fred, plenty of jobs.  Jobs for professionals, jobs for skilled, semi-skilled, and lay people.

http://www.glassdoor.com/blog/highest-paying-jobs-demand/

http://fortune.com/2015/01/24/in-demand-jobs-for-2015/

http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/76DB6BDB/Top-25-In-Demand-Jobs-and-Fastest-Growing-Occupations/

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings

http://www.clarkhoward.com/high-paying-jobs-no-college-degree

You still don't get it. The fact that there are SOME jobs does not mean that there are enough jobs for everyone.

Are you really trying to c;aim that there are enough well paying jobs for everyone to have one yet everyone just chooses to struggle to get by on low wages? How about all the people who worked hard for college degrees and can't find good paying jobs? Did they work hard through college and then suddenly become lazy bums when they got out of school? What about all the people drawing unemployment that are seeking jobs?

Do you honestly think that there are no people applying for those jobs you list? That there is no competition for those jobs?

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[6andcounting]

The favorite prop of those complaining about income inequality is always one of those pie charts. It plays into the notion that inequality is a problem solved by redistributing wealth. Of course, the fixed pie/zero sum game belief is complete fallacy. The solution is to create more wealth so that the economy grows and benefits everyone.

That's why many of Americans under the poverty line still have smartphones, cars and air conditioning. They are in the bottom whatever percent but still have access to the basic goods and services they need plus some. I don't think anyone can fully see the significance economic growth has on society as a whole until you consider all of JD Rockefeller's money couldn't by him the devices and internet access us poor and middle class folk are using right now.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-22-2015, 03:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You still don't get it.  The fact that there are SOME jobs does not mean that there are enough jobs for everyone.

Are you really trying to c;aim that there are enough well paying jobs for everyone to have one yet everyone just chooses to struggle to get by on low wages?  How about all the people who worked hard for college degrees and can't find good paying jobs?  Did they work hard through college and then suddenly become lazy bums when they got out of school?  What about all the people drawing unemployment that are seeking jobs?

Do you honestly think that there are no people applying for those jobs you list?  That there is no competition for those jobs?

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I'm saying that there are plenty of jobs.

Many people choose not to apply for them, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps they are unwilling to learn a new skill, unwilling to move to where the work is, maybe those jobs that pay will require them to put in more effort than they want to produce.

My son got tired of minimum wage jobs (he's 19), he's now making $11.51/hr., working 50+ hrs./wk on a landscaping crew, in Cincinnati. He tried his hand at a factory, paying about the same, but didn't like it. Don't tell me there aren't plenty of jobs out there, when a 19 year old, that barely finished HS, with no skills to speak of, and very little experience or ambition can find jobs that pay a living wage. He quit the factory job, started on the landscape crew a week later. He's now looking to get his own place.

There are plenty of jobs, many people just don't want to work them! Could be why we have such a problem with illegal immigration? If Americans would go work those jobs, there would be no incentive for the illegals to come here.

[JustWinBaby]

(05-22-2015, 03:41 PM)6andcounting Wrote: consider all of JD Rockefeller's money couldn't by him the devices and internet access us poor and middle class folk are using right now.

Ehhh, who needs porn when you can afford high-priced escorts?

[6andcounting]

(05-22-2015, 04:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My son got tired of minimum wage jobs (he's 19), he's now making $11.51/hr., working 50+ hrs./wk on a landscaping crew, in Cincinnati.  He tried his hand at a factory, paying about the same, but didn't like it.  Don't tell me there aren't plenty of jobs out there, when a 19 year old, that barely finished HS, with no skills to speak of, and very little experience or ambition can find jobs that pay a living wage.  He quit the factory job, started on the landscape crew a week later.  He's now looking to get his own place.

Ouch. I'm sure you were you're son's favorite little league coach growing up.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-22-2015, 04:07 PM)6andcounting Wrote: Ouch. I'm sure you were you're son's favorite little league coach growing up.

He actually called to thank me, for making him work outside on Summer days. Said it prepared him for the landscaping job!

He eventually wants to go to school for Law Enforcement, he just wants enough money to get out of his mom's house right now.

[fredtoast]

(05-22-2015, 04:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm saying that there are plenty of jobs.

Many people choose not to apply for them, for a variety of reasons.  Perhaps they are unwilling to learn a new skill, unwilling to move to where the work is, maybe those jobs that pay will require them to put in more effort than they want to produce.  

My son got tired of minimum wage jobs (he's 19), he's now making $11.51/hr., working 50+ hrs./wk on a landscaping crew, in Cincinnati.  He tried his hand at a factory, paying about the same, but didn't like it.  Don't tell me there aren't plenty of jobs out there, when a 19 year old, that barely finished HS, with no skills to speak of, and very little experience or ambition can find jobs that pay a living wage.  He quit the factory job, started on the landscape crew a week later.  He's now looking to get his own place.

There are plenty of jobs, many people just don't want to work them!  Could be why we have such a problem with illegal immigration?  If Americans would go work those jobs, there would be no incentive for the illegals to come here.

More anecdotal evidence that proves nothing.

Why don't you answer any of the questions I asked about unemployed people that have graduated from college? How do you explain the unemployment rate and all the people looking for jobs and can't find one.

And finally $11.51 is not a living wage. You can't afford to raise a family on that type of income.

And finally, why were you out of work so long if there are so many jobs available out there?

There simply are not enough well paying jobs for all the people that need them. and please don't post a story about how your neighbor got a job to prove that every unemployed person is lazy or that everyone can find a job that pays enough to raise a family.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-23-2015, 05:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: More anecdotal evidence that proves nothing.

Why don't you answer any of the questions I asked about unemployed people that have graduated from college?  How do you explain the unemployment rate and all the people looking for jobs and can't find one.

And finally $11.51 is not a living wage.  You can't afford to raise a family on that type of income.

And finally, why were you out of work so long if there are so many jobs available out there?

There simply are not enough well paying jobs for all the people that need them.  and please don't post a story about how your neighbor got a job to prove that every unemployed person is lazy or that everyone can find a job that pays enough to raise a family.

Fred, if college graduates are walking around unemployed, it is likely due to a choice that they have made. That choice could be as simple as being unwilling to take a job in another field that has opportunities, or an unwillingness to relocate to an area where the employment prospects are higher, or it could be as simple as maybe they chose to study liberal arts when they should have studied engineering.

About my son's pay? It is great, for a 19 y/o starting wage. People working jobs at a starting wage likely shouldn't be thinking about raising families yet, anyway...

And finally, I was not "out of work". When the banks crashed, the home building industry and all associated trades suffered greatly. I did whatever menial crap that I could come up with, in order to scrape by, while I went back to school. Being "out of work" is a personal choice. I chose to do things that most people might consider "beneath them", just to make ends meet. Sure, my debts piled up. But, I got my degree, and a new career out of the deal.

[Bilbo Saggins]

Read into the Waltons sometime if you believe that people at the top of the economic ladder earn every penny that they own. None have ever worked a real job outside of the family, one of them ran some poor bastard over and got off scot free, and they have helped to cheapen the American culture with a morally reprehensible business model. These people haven't cured cancer or invented anything new. Rather, they've rampantly outsourced and choked out all of their competition whilst paying their employees a pitiful wage. Listen to them speak sometime-they are like children who have no clue what real life is like. These are the members of the billionaire class who are buying our government.

[fredtoast]

(05-23-2015, 05:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And finally, I was not "out of work".  When the banks crashed, the home building industry and all associated trades suffered greatly.  I did whatever menial crap that I could come up with, in order to scrape by, while I went back to school.  Being "out of work" is a personal choice.  I chose to do things that most people might consider "beneath them", just to make ends meet.  Sure, my debts piled up.  But, I got my degree, and a new career out of the deal.

You could not make close to enough to pay your bills because you burned through all your savings in just two years.

So that proves my point that there are not enough good paying jobs for people that need them. What if that same thing had happened when you were younger and had not built up a savings? What if that happened to someone who did not have the help that you did to return to school. Young people without savings and a family to help them can't just decide to go to school.

I guess you probably did work hard to get back on your feet, but you were lucky and had resources that some other people don't have. Just because you were able to do it does not mean everyone can. Plus I'll bet there were not enough jobs for all the people that you went to school with. Even you did not have the luxury of picking and choosing from a list of employers waitiung to hirev you because there are more jobs than there are people to fill them.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 01:40 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You could not make close to enough to pay your bills because you burned through all your savings in just two years.

So that proves my point that there are not enough good paying jobs for people that need them.  What if that same thing had happened when you were younger and had not built up a savings?  What if that happened to someone who did not have the help that you did to return to school.  Young people without savings and a family to help them can't just decide to go to school.

I guess you probably did work hard to get back on your feet, but you were lucky and had resources that some other people don't have.  Just because you were able to do it does not mean everyone can.  Plus I'll bet there were not enough jobs for all the people that you went to school with.  Even you did not have the luxury of picking and choosing from a list of employers waitiung to hirev you because there are more jobs than there are people to fill them.

I never implied that there wasn't a degree of hunger and tenacity required, in order for people to take advantage of upward mobility, only that it is entirely possible. I also never suggested that opportunities would seek people out, people must want to better themselves, in order to do so. Contrary to the old saying, opportunity does not always knock on your door, sometimes you have to go looking for it. I did my research, checked around, asked people working in the field about the volume of opportunities in the area I was interested in studying.

[fredtoast]

(05-24-2015, 11:24 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I never implied that there wasn't a degree of hunger and tenacity required, in order for people to take advantage of upward mobility, only that it is entirely possible.  I also never suggested that opportunities would seek people out, people must want to better themselves, in order to do so.  Contrary to the old saying, opportunity does not always knock on your door, sometimes you have to go looking for it.  I did my research, checked around, asked people working in the field about the volume of opportunities in the area I was interested in studying.

I congratulate you on your success. But none of that proves that there are enough well paying jobs for everyone to have one.

BTW why are you so proud of your son going into unskilled labor when it was a total failure for you. shouldn't you be encouraging him to get some sort of training or higher education.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 12:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I congratulate you on your success.  But none of that proves that there are enough well paying jobs for everyone to have one.

BTW why are you so proud of your son going into unskilled labor when it was a total failure for you.  shouldn't you be encouraging him to get some sort of training or higher education.

You must have missed the post where I said he wants to go back to school for Law Enforcement, just not right now. And, I was a skilled tradesman. I actually hired unskilled guys, and taught them a skill.

As for there not being enough well paying jobs, we are going to have to disagree on that one. If there weren't more jobs than Americans could perform, then why are people breaking the law, in order to come here and work them? Why are our corporations and universities recruiting in Asia for Engineering and Medical students and professionals?

However, all of these tangents and rabbit holes that you have led me down still have done nothing to convince me that people cannot climb the socioeconomic ladder, and that the cry for minimum wage to be raised is justified.

I stand by my original statement; If you want to make more money, make yourself more attractive to the employment market. In other words, don't just cry about your situation and expect it to change, get off your ass and make the change happen.

[fredtoast]

(05-24-2015, 07:26 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:  If there weren't more jobs than Americans could perform, then why are people breaking the law, in order to come here and work them?  Why are our corporations and universities recruiting in Asia for Engineering and Medical students and professionals?  

People breaking the law to get in this country rarely work high paying jobs.

Companies recruit all over the world to get the best candidates, not because there are no people graduating from universities here in the United States. About a third of NBA players come from other countries. Is that because there are not enough people here in the US that want to play in the NBA?

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 07:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People breaking the law to get in this country rarely work high paying jobs.

Companies recruit all over the world to get the best candidates, not because there are no people graduating from universities here in the United States.  About a third of NBA players come from other countries.  Is  that because there are not enough people here in the US that want to play in the NBA?

So, then you agree that there are more well paying jobs than Americans can perform?

Like I said, the jobs are there. The people just need to make themselves employable.

[fredtoast]

(05-24-2015, 08:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, then you agree that there are more well paying jobs than Americans can perform?

No.

Nothing I said came even close to that. How in the hell did you get that from what I said?

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 07:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Companies recruit all over the world to get the best candidates

(05-24-2015, 08:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.

Nothing I said came even close to that.  How in the hell did you get that from what I said?

The fact that they have to recruit all over the world clearly shows that there are good jobs here, that the American public just does not want to do.

Wouldn't you agree?

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(05-24-2015, 09:03 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The fact that they have to recruit all over the world clearly shows that there are good jobs here, that the American public just does not want to do.

Wouldn't you agree?

I don't think it's that black and white while I think you be right in some aspects (fruit picker, cooks, lawn care...etc.) There are a lot of people being recruited around for jobs that we are not producing enough qualified people (doctors and engineers, most notably.)

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 09:14 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I don't think it's that black and white while I think you be right in some aspects (fruit picker, cooks, lawn care...etc.)  There are a lot of people being recruited around for jobs that we are not producing enough qualified people (doctors and engineers, most notably.)

You've got some catching up to do. I was referring to the recruiting in terms of Engineering and Medical professions. Not enough Americans want to study those fields, to keep up with the demand of the job market.

What does that tell me? That most young Americans do not want to work that hard, to achieve the status that their parents have achieved. They are content to simply be "comfortable" with a low wage, low output type of job. Why strive for more, when low pay still affords cable tv, internet, a car, and a smartphone?

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(05-24-2015, 09:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You've got some catching up to do.  I was referring to the recruiting in terms of Engineering and Medical professions.  Not enough Americans want to study those fields, to keep up with the demand of the job market.

I didn't realize you'd touched on that. My bad.

Quote:What does that tell me?  That most young Americans do not want to work that hard, to achieve the status that their parents have achieved.  They are content to simply be "comfortable" with a low wage, low output type of job.  Why strive for more, when low pay still affords cable tv, internet, a car, and a smartphone?

I don't know if I totally agree with those reasons why younger people don't pursue those degrees. First of all a majority of students wouldn't be accepted to those programs anyway. Parents here don't push their kids at younger ages like many are pushed in other countries. And those that do have the ability to pursue those types of degrees, I think are looking for financial type of degrees where they can make more money and less head ache. I don't think I'd want to be a doctor even if I had the talent for it.