Let's talk about income inequality

[treee]

My opinion when it comes to income inequality is that it's something that is easy to not think about. It's easier to pretend it's not real rather than come to terms with the fact that some people are born with significantly less opportunity than others.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 10:28 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I didn't realize you'd touched on that. My bad.

I don't know if I totally agree with those reasons why younger people don't pursue those degrees.  First of all a majority of students wouldn't be accepted to those programs anyway.  Parents here don't push their kids at younger ages like many are pushed in other countries. And those that do have the ability to pursue those types of degrees, I think are looking for financial type of degrees where they can make more money and less head ache.  I don't think I'd want to be a doctor even if I had the talent for it.

That is an interesting point that you mention, about degreed young folk going toward bigger money, with less work involved. It sort of leads into my whole idea that many that claim to be "trapped" in minimum wage jobs actually could rise above that level, but maybe they just don't want to put in the work it takes to sustain a better paying, high output position.

Just like when you mentioned the immigrants that do the physical labor jobs; Yes, they come here as laborers, but I have personally observed that they have progressed to skilled and supervisory positions in those industries.

My entire premise is that the opportunity for upward mobility is still here, but many are just unwilling to work for it. A significant raise in minimum wage is not what is in order here, but rather a raise in personal work ethics.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(05-24-2015, 10:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is an interesting point that you mention, about degreed young folk going toward bigger money, with less work involved.  It sort of leads into my whole idea that many that claim to be "trapped" in minimum wage jobs actually could rise above that level, but maybe they just don't want to put in the work it takes to sustain a better paying, high output position.  

Just like when you mentioned the immigrants that do the physical labor jobs; Yes, they come here as laborers, but I have personally observed that they have progressed to skilled and supervisory positions in those industries.  

My entire premise is that the opportunity for upward mobility is still here, but many are just unwilling to work for it.  A significant raise in minimum wage is not what is in order here, but rather a raise in personal work ethics.

I don't disagree that upward mobility is still there, I just don't think it is there like it once was. The gap between the rich and the poor is narrowing, meaning the middle class is disappearing. There's a lot of people with degrees that can't find a decent paying job within the their field of study. And I'm not talking about people with just a liberal arts degree.
I know guys with degree's in marketing, business, graphic design, programing...you get the point. My own father had worked in commercial art/package design for 25yrs before they forced him into retirement, bring in someone younger and pay them less.

Like I said in a post earlier, the gap between CEO's and his average employee's wage is outlandish compared to what CEO's made 30-40yrs ago.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 10:30 PM)treee Wrote: My opinion when it comes to income inequality is that it's something that is easy to not think about. It's easier to pretend it's not real rather than come to terms with the fact that some people are born with significantly less opportunity than others.

Treee, all Americans are born with the same opportunities, in this day and age. Sure, in some small pockets, some groups are still disadvantaged, but, by and large, most of America has passed that point. You state that it is easier to pretend that it isn't real, rather than to accept the fact... Well, for some it seems to be easier to play the role of disadvantaged, rather than try hard and see where that goes.

In this link, http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/opinion/navarrette-affirmative-action/ You have a minority group clearly against affirmative action, as it reduces the opportunities for students based on merit. Why would the Chinese argue against affirmative action? One would think that they would benefit from consideration on a basis of race or ethnicity, right? Wrong, they actually see that system of taking away opportunity from a high achiever, as to award it to someone solely on the basis of race.

In post slavery times, it could easily be argued that the Asians have faced some of the worst discrimination and negative sentiment in America. If they are arguing that preferential treatment is a bad thing, then they certainly must realize that opportunity is here, when all things are considered on an equal (or merit) basis.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 11:07 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I don't disagree that upward mobility is still there, I just don't think it is there like it once was.  The gap between the rich and the poor is narrowing, meaning the middle class is disappearing.  There's a lot of people with degrees that can't find a decent paying job within the their field of study.  And I'm not talking about people with just a liberal arts degree.
I know guys with degree's in marketing, business, graphic design, programing...you get the point.  My own father had worked in commercial art/package design for 25yrs before they forced him into retirement, bring in someone younger and pay them less.  

Like I said in a post earlier, the gap between CEO's and his average employee's wage is outlandish compared to what CEO's made 30-40yrs ago.

Hey, I hear you loud and clear about degreed people not finding paying jobs in their field of study. Many years ago, I graduated with a B.S. in Mass Comm and minor in PR. No one told me there was no money in those fields, heck my Dad was just thrilled to see me going to school (as he only went to 10th grade), the "guidance advisors" at the school were more than happy to tell me I was going in a great direction... So, after a year of working in radio, I quit and went into the hands on trades. I ended up making 4X the $$ I was making in radio.

My point of that anecdote wasn't to brag about landing on my feet, as much as to demonstrate that people have to follow the money more than following their dreams. The opportunities are there, people just need to want it.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(05-24-2015, 11:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hey, I hear you loud and clear about degreed people not finding paying jobs in their field of study.  Many years ago, I graduated with a B.S. in Mass Comm and minor in PR.  No one told me there was no money in those fields, heck my Dad was just thrilled to see me going to school (as he only went to 10th grade), the "guidance advisors" at the school were more than happy to tell me I was going in a great direction...  So, after a year of working in radio, I quit and went into the hands on trades.  I ended up making 4X the $$ I was making in radio.  

My point of that anecdote wasn't to brag about landing on my feet, as much as to demonstrate that people have to follow the money more than following their dreams.  The opportunities are there, people just need to want it.

Trust me I too hear you loud and clear, I've been thinking about going back to school recently after years of "laboring" in many jobs. I'm just trying to pick one with job security, and offer a decent wage.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 11:30 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Trust me I too hear you loud and clear, I've been thinking about going back to school recently after years of "laboring" in many jobs.  I'm just trying to pick one with job security, and offer a decent wage.

Not sure what your interests and background are, but Civil Engineering and all of the Tech fields are absolutely booming here in the Raleigh area. When construction went down the tubes, I studied Land Surveying. Plenty of work in that field, as well. America's infrastructure is rapidly deteriorating, Civil Engineers and Surveyors will have endless work here, no matte the state of economic affairs. The company that I landed with caters to NC DOT.

[Belsnickel]

(05-24-2015, 11:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not sure what your interests and background are, but Civil Engineering and all of the Tech fields are absolutely booming here in the Raleigh area.  When construction went down the tubes, I studied Land Surveying.  Plenty of work in that field, as well.  America's infrastructure is rapidly deteriorating, Civil Engineers and Surveyors will have endless work here, no matte the state of economic affairs.  The company that I landed with caters to NC DOT.

Interestingly enough my specific research topics with my second bachelors degree will be in regards to municipal/regional planning, which is all about land use and ties into the surveying and civil engineering. I a, doing a lot of general public admin stuff, but I will be focusing a good deal on planning.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(05-24-2015, 11:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not sure what your interests and background are, but Civil Engineering and all of the Tech fields are absolutely booming here in the Raleigh area.  When construction went down the tubes, I studied Land Surveying.  Plenty of work in that field, as well.  America's infrastructure is rapidly deteriorating, Civil Engineers and Surveyors will have endless work here, no matte the state of economic affairs.  The company that I landed with caters to NC DOT.

Well unfortunately most of my interests would fall under a liberal arts degree, and I'm already a bartender.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-24-2015, 11:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Interestingly enough my specific research topics with my second bachelors degree will be in regards to municipal/regional planning, which is all about land use and ties into the surveying and civil engineering. I a, doing a lot of general public admin stuff, but I will be focusing a good deal on planning.

Yes, planning plays a large role in UDOs, that we in Surveying must have a solid understanding of, in order to alert any potential encroachments to clients.

[fredtoast]

(05-24-2015, 11:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Treee, all Americans are born with the same opportunities, in this day and age.

And every NFL team has the same opportunity ti win the Super Bowl. Does that mean that if every team works hard then they can ALL win the Super Bowl?

This is the point you keep refusing to acknowledge. It is impossible for everyone to be a winner in our Capitalist society. There are not enough good jobs for everyone to have one.

[fredtoast]

(05-24-2015, 10:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My entire premise is that the opportunity for upward mobility is still here, but many are just unwilling to work for it.  A significant raise in minimum wage is not what is in order here, but rather a raise in personal work ethics.

So was everyone just really lazy in the early 1930's? Is that why very few people could find jobs that paid a living wage?

[fredtoast]

(05-24-2015, 09:03 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The fact that they have to recruit all over the world clearly shows that there are good jobs here, that the American public just does not want to do.

Wouldn't you agree?

Wow. You honestly believe that every person in the US with an engineering degree is employed and there are still more jobs available than can not be filled with U.S. citizens?

Really?

Look back at my example of the NBA. Do you think the NBA teams have to look overseas because there are not enough U S citizens that want to play in the NBA?

[SunsetBengal]

(05-26-2015, 07:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So was everyone just really lazy in the early 1930's?  Is that why very few people could find jobs that paid a living wage?

We're not talking about the 1930's, here. What I'm talking about is a general unwillingness to work hard to improve one's position in life. Since you did bring up the 1930's.. At least at that time, those folks weren't afraid of a little hard work, many of whom came from an agrarian upbringing. How many of these chumps that are crying about raising a minimum wage do suspect have spent any time with some hand tools working dirt, or having to struggle to fix a piece of equipment in a hot field?

(05-26-2015, 07:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wow.  You honestly believe that every person in the US with an engineering degree is employed and there are still more jobs available than can not be filled with U.S. citizens?

Really?

Fred, what I believe is that in today's American Society there are a significant percentage of people that are unwilling to work harder than others. Even our most bottom folks in the US have it better than much of the World's population. How many people in other places do you think can be chronically unemployed, yet still have a car, cable tv, air conditioning, a smartphone, etc.? All while working minimum wage, or living off of a combination of work and subsidies.

Fred, you may be more educated than I, be able to state your arguments more eloquently than I (and you should, it is your job after all...), but no amount of rhetoric and pseudo fact presentation is going to convince me that upward mobility isn't reachable for those willing to try. Hard work, it's the way things get done.

[Devils Advocate]

(05-22-2015, 04:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm saying that there are plenty of jobs.

Many people choose not to apply for them, for a variety of reasons.  Perhaps they are unwilling to learn a new skill, unwilling to move to where the work is, maybe those jobs that pay will require them to put in more effort than they want to produce.  

My son got tired of minimum wage jobs (he's 19), he's now making $11.51/hr., working 50+ hrs./wk on a landscaping crew, in Cincinnati.  He tried his hand at a factory, paying about the same, but didn't like it.  Don't tell me there aren't plenty of jobs out there, when a 19 year old, that barely finished HS, with no skills to speak of, and very little experience or ambition can find jobs that pay a living wage.  He quit the factory job, started on the landscape crew a week later.  He's now looking to get his own place.

There are plenty of jobs, many people just don't want to work them!  Could be why we have such a problem with illegal immigration?  If Americans would go work those jobs, there would be no incentive for the illegals to come here.

Benifits such as health care become a factor when considering employment from both the employee and employer. Most factory jobs contract their hiring process through employment agencies where health care benifits aren't as enticing and sometimes not offered at all, not to mention the fear of the possibility of working through a temp agency and end up not getting hired at all. This screening process obviously works well for the employer and contractor but often not so well for the employee. Many times, unless you're a skilled worker, the starting pay through these agencies is minimal. So, minimum wage plus little to no health care creates a void where immigrants are willing to step in and I don't blame them one bit personally. I also don't blame the guy working at McDonald's who gets 45 hrs a week plus bennies plus free food for being afraid to switch into one of these contracted jobs. At least McD's offers a budget guideline to their workers for how to survive on their payscale, albeit a person would have to have superior self control to maintain that budget and well, it's a bit of a stretch to begin with.

The standard of living in America is such that people have come to expect certain amenities. Right or wrong, that's just the reality of being an American these days. I blame the baby boomers for that. They, after all razed[sic] this generation.

[fredtoast]

(05-26-2015, 08:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fred, what I believe is that in today's American Society there are a significant percentage of people that are unwilling to work harder than others.

And that is the way it has ALWAYS been. There has always been unemployment in the United States. There has always been poverty. There have always been some people who worked harder than others. There have always been some people who are smarter than others.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-26-2015, 10:54 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Benifits such as health care become a factor when considering employment from both the employee and employer. Most factory jobs contract their hiring process through employment agencies where health care benifits aren't as enticing and sometimes not offered at all, not to mention the fear of the possibility of working through a temp agency and end up not getting hired at all. This screening process obviously works well for the employer and contractor but often not so well for the employee. Many times, unless you're a skilled worker, the starting pay through these agencies is minimal. So, minimum wage plus little to no health care creates a void where immigrants are willing to step in and I don't blame them one bit personally. I also don't blame the guy working at McDonald's who gets 45 hrs a week plus bennies plus free food for being afraid to switch into one of these contracted jobs. At least McD's offers a budget guideline to their workers for how to survive on their payscale, albeit a person would have to have superior self control to maintain that budget and well, it's a bit of a stretch to begin with.

The standard of living in America is such that people have come to expect certain amenities. Right or wrong, that's just the reality of being an American these days. I blame the baby boomers for that. They, after all razed[sic] this generation.

Meh....yeah, somewhat.  There's also the sentiment of my grandparents' generation (the greatest generation) that they didn't put their necks on the line in Europe and the South Pacific to see their families' jobs outsourced and have to work like a dog and STILL have to use government subsidies just to get by. (what was the old saying about a chicken in every pot?)

If you work 40 hrs. a week, you should be able to get by on your own merits, period.  That just isn't always the case.  A big part of that is the loss of our industrial might.

As for the first part, I agree totally, and I also acknowledge there are some lazy moochers out there.  That being said, pure, unadulterated greed has its share of blame too.

[Bmoreblitz]

There are not enough high living wage jobs for all the working adults living in this country. Some people are just going to have to work at jobs that are always going to be at the bottom ring of our pay scale. It's just a mathematical fact.

[SunsetBengal]

[Beaker]

To the people saying there aren't enough jobs...what's your solution? Where are all these required high paying jobs going to come from? What happened to woring your way up? Starting out in lower paying jobs and climbing the ladder? You either get promoted via hard work, or you gain seniority and the incremental step ups in pay that come with it. Too many people think they should start out in the middle or top of the pay scale.