Let's talk about income inequality

[SunsetBengal]

I am of the position that feels that the entire movement to get rid of "income inequality" is just a bunch of lazy folks looking for something for nothing.

Yep, that's right, I said it. If you want to earn more, study more, learn a marketable skill that pays.

My thoughts are primarily motivated by those that feel the minimum wage should be raised to $15/hr. I also feel that crowd is a bunch of bozos that should try their hand at jobs that pay better than minimum wage, just to see if they could cut the mustard.

Minimum wage jobs pay the least for a reason. That reason is because it takes the least amount of skill, experience, or talent to perform those duties. They feel that $15/hr or 30K (based on a 40 hr. work week) is suitable pay for the least common denominator in terms of employment opportunities. What those folks do not realize is that even if that were to happen, it would only be a very short lived victory, as inflation would occur, and make their $15/hr. worth about the same as their $7.25 is today.

More to the point; Why should the lowest achievers (for the ones that never move out of minimum wage jobs) and those with virtually no work experience, make as much as people who have worked and studied hard to develop a marketable skill? 30K is about the same as an average starting Teacher or Fire Fighter. (just to put it in perspective) Does it mean that if minimum wage should be 30K, then all jobs that currently pay in the 30K range should automatically go to 60K? How would that work? If everyone got paid a living wage to do menial work, what would the incentive be to study and work hard?

But it's so unfair that people at the top have all the wealth.. Bullshit. Try your hand a running a billion dollar corporation, tell me how that works out. Try getting millions of fans to come and watch you perform on stage, or the big screen, in the stadium, or in the arena. Likely won't work out so well.. So, basically, you need to get a freakin' education, learn your sorry ass a skill that has a pay grade above minimum, and start plugging along like most Americans that want to live the dream.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/

http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/04/income-mobility-myths

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=25295

I am not rich, likely will never be financially "rich", but I have what I need, and most of what I want in life. My grandmother made minimum wage until the day she retired, and was the first female to ever graduate from her High School, but it never stopped her from being the happiest person I've ever known.

Folks, if you want to make more money, then make yourself worth more.
The bottom line.

[Yojimbo]

Not everybody can become a skilled worker just by "studying harder" there are different levels of intelligence and aptitude across the population. My biggest problem with low paying jobs, is if you work 40/hr weeks it should pay enough money to not have to be on food stamps or Medicaid. A full-time job should pay enough to get you above the poverty line regardless of what the job is.

A lot of our service industry people came from the manufacturing sector after most of those jobs were outsourced over the past 30 years. There just aren't enough well paying jobs for people who got screwed by big business and our government passing free trade agreements and now another one is coming down the pipe.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-21-2015, 10:20 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Not everybody can become a skilled worker just by "studying harder" there are different levels of intelligence and aptitude across the population. My biggest problem with low paying jobs, is if you work 40/hr weeks it should pay enough money to not have to be on food stamps or Medicaid. A full-time job should pay enough to get you above the poverty line regardless of what the job is.

A lot of our service industry people came from the manufacturing sector after most of those jobs were outsourced over the past 30 years. There just aren't enough well paying jobs for people who got screwed by big business and our government passing free trade agreements and now another one is coming down the pipe.

The thing is, if one does not have the aptitude to learn a new skill, they need to move to where there is work that they are suited for.

You can't just sit around, waiting for a handout or the phone to ring..

And, I get what you are saying about different types of intelligence. There is a skill for everyone, they just need to look within and find it. My Father never graduated HS, but he was a skilled worker, had a good job that provided well for us. I learned enough from his beatings and preaching to know that I needed to work harder to rise above his "personal hell". He wanted me to be better than a laborer, he wanted me take advantage of my intelligence, a gift that he did not have. Now, I never did achieve academic greatness. (I partied out in rebellion), but I did graduate with a B.S. in Mass Comm., which led me to a job in radio (which was no fun do to corporate bs) and then into the hands on trades. (where I actually made money). After the big crash, my business went to the toilet (as did many). I had a talk with my old man, he said I needed to go back to school and learn a new skill. I took his advice, go a degree in Land Surveying Technology. Now, (6 years later) I am finally eligible to test for certification.

So, my point is that when I speak about people and wage inequality, I speak from the real "grass roots" of working from the bottom up.

[Bmoreblitz]

Minimum wage increases do not work, it is offset by inflation. There is no point in making 40% more income if the cost of living increases to balance that increase

Raise minimum wage to match the growth in GDP only, not the other way around, and do it in small, spread out increments. I don't think it needs to be raised at this time. Ask me on a yearly basis.

[StLucieBengal]

You gotta be willing to go out and find your money. I don't think people feel like they should have to or that they should be abLe to live where they choose and make the most money there.... Just not the case these days

[Devils Advocate]

Social inequality is the real culprit.

There are plenty of B A's in the unemployment line too.

Good for you that you overcame obstacles and many do. But many cannot for an infinite amount of reasons.

Achieving anything through 'hard work' is a slave's mentality instilled unto us by TPTB. That's not to say it doesn't happen. But it's the exception.

I like you Sunset. You're one of my favorite posters. But man you sure did hang a hard right at some point recently. I won't think any less of you of course however I see many friendly disagreements in our future.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-21-2015, 11:07 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Social inequality is the real culprit.

There are plenty of B A's in the unemployment line too.

Good for you that you overcame obstacles and many do. But many cannot for an infinite amount of reasons.

Achieving anything through 'hard work' is a slave's mentality instilled unto us by TPTB. That's not to say it doesn't happen. But it's the exception.

I like you Sunset. You're one of my favorite posters. But man you sure did hang a hard right at some point recently. I won't think any less of you of course however I see many friendly disagreements in our future.

It's not that I have so much taken a "hard right", DA. I've always thought conservative, just not been really vocal about it. However, when the deadbeat husband of a sister you love starts preaching this "income inequality" crap, it really riled me up. Rather than make a confrontation, and make waves in my sister's household, I chose to vent my feelings here, among friends.

We may disagree in the future, but that is ok. Friends are like that.

[Devils Advocate]

(05-21-2015, 11:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not that I have so much taken a "hard right", DA.  I've always thought conservative, just not been really vocal about it.  However, when the deadbeat husband of a sister you love starts preaching this "income inequality" crap, it really riled me up.  Rather than make a confrontation, and make waves in my sister's household, I chose to vent my feelings here, among friends.  

We may disagree in the future, but that is ok.  Friends are like that.  

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(05-21-2015, 09:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I am of the position that feels that the entire movement to get rid of "income inequality" is just a bunch of lazy folks looking for something for nothing.

Yep, that's right, I said it.  If you want to earn more, study more, learn a marketable skill that pays.  

My thoughts are primarily motivated by those that feel the minimum wage should be raised to $15/hr.  I also feel that crowd is a bunch of bozos that should try their hand at jobs that pay better than minimum wage, just to see if they could cut the mustard.

Minimum wage jobs pay the least for a reason.  That reason is because it takes the least amount of skill, experience, or talent to perform those duties.  They feel that $15/hr or 30K (based on a 40 hr. work week) is suitable pay for the least common denominator in terms of employment opportunities.  What those folks do not realize is that even if that were to happen, it would only be a very short lived victory, as inflation would occur, and make their $15/hr. worth about the same as their $7.25 is today.

More to the point; Why should the lowest achievers (for the ones that never move out of minimum wage jobs) and those with virtually no work experience, make as much as people who have worked and studied hard to develop a marketable skill?  30K is about the same as an average starting Teacher or Fire Fighter. (just to put it in perspective)  Does it mean that if minimum wage should be 30K, then all jobs that currently pay in the 30K range should automatically go to 60K?  How would that work?  If everyone got paid a living wage to do menial work, what would the incentive be to study and work hard?  

But it's so unfair that people at the top have all the wealth..  Bullshit.  Try your hand a running a billion dollar corporation, tell me how that works out.  Try getting millions of fans to come and watch you perform on stage, or the big screen, in the stadium, or in the arena.  Likely won't work out so well..  So, basically, you need to get a freakin' education, learn your sorry ass a skill that has a pay grade above minimum, and start plugging along like most Americans that want to live the dream.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/

http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/04/income-mobility-myths

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=25295

I am not rich, likely will never be financially "rich", but I have what I need, and most of what I want in life.  My grandmother made minimum wage until the day she retired, and was the first female to ever graduate from her High School, but it never stopped her from being the happiest person I've ever known.  

Folks, if you want to make more money, then make yourself worth more.  
The bottom line.

I think what most people are referring to when talking about income inequality is the gap narrowing between rich and poor and the disappearing of the middle class. I remember reading a while back in some news paper article about CEO's today making something like 600x's their average employee. Where as 30-40 yrs ago your average CEO made 30-40x's it's average employee. It's become increasingly harder to climb that corporate ladder before you make too much and get the axe because of it. Happened to my dad, forced into retirement.

A lot of these companies could probably keep jobs here in the US and pay a livable wage. However that means those CEO's aren't going to make that 600x's their average employee. :snark:

[Bengalzona]

My opinions have been changing about minimum wage. I don't think there should be a national minimum wage. At least not as a set dollar amount, like $15. Costs of living vary dramatically from city to city across the nation. Even within the same state. A person in New York City may need $20/hour just to make rent and buy food. A person in Strawberry, Arizona might be fine on less than $10/hour. Individual cities and counties should be the ones to decide. And that seems to be the trend.

As far as income inequality, it is the violation of the social contract. Poor and middle class people generally don't care how much the rich people are making, until they see decades of rich getting richer while their classes don't improve at all. At that point, they feel taken advantage of. True, the world has changed. Globalization and automation have cut deeply into middle class jobs. The problem is that the rich have adapted to the changing world. It was easier for them because they have the resources to do so. It is a different story for the middle class. There are no replacement occupations, so the mass of people find themselves competing like dogs in a pit for the few remaining decent paying jobs. Now, to a degree, competition is good for everyone. But over-competition is not. And many people in the middle class reject that, particularly when it is forced upon them as a condition for basic survival. There is a feeling the pendulum is weighed to heavily on one side right now.

Frankly, this is a trend that should have been addressed by our politicians decades ago. It wasn't. Uncle Ronnie promised us it would all be okay because of the 'trickle down'. Where did that get anyone in the middle class? Uncle Bill promised better times with the 'peace dividend'. That was spent quickly, and not on the middle class. Uncle W. promised us that all would be okay if we just sent our children off to war and deregulated.

My point here is that no one has had a long term plan for the changing world. That should be no surprise. We are Americans, we don't do long term plans. We are left with one party which is preoccupied with the poor and another which is preoccupied with the rich. Neither speaks for the middle class despite their rhetoric. And private enterprise has no answers. They are preoccupied with their profit margins and bottom lines.

[BmorePat87]

Rich and Zona hit it spot on. This isn't about minimum wage. It's about the decline of certain classes and the growing divide with pay.

From a sociological stand point, it's an interesting topic

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

When companies don't pay decent wages what happens?  Welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, etc.

Who pays for those programs?  We do.  Who do we blame?  The government.  The individual.  But, we never blame the companies who pay those shitty wages while they laugh all the way to the bank.

[Bengalzona]

I have a problem with labeling a whole class of people as 'underachieving'. That is a label for a particular individual, not for a group. And especially not for a large group of people like thirty or forty percent of the population. That's absurd. It is a myth to say to everyone that "if you just work hard, you can be successful!". For many people in this country right now, if they just work hard they can stay alive. That's it. Success for them is just staying alive. Opportunities that some, or even most, of us have are not available to all. It has always been that way and it will probably always be that way. But that is no reason to overgeneralize and label people just because they belong to a different class.

BTW- The same goes for labeling all rich people as 'overachieving'. They are not. And some will even tell you that they are not, if you ask.

[JustWinBaby]

Get a job, problem solved. Seriously how is that debatable?

[Bengalzona]

(05-22-2015, 03:19 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Get a job, problem solved.  Seriously how is that debatable?

Who doesn't 'get a job' now days?

If you were saying this in the 70's or 80's, you may have had a point. But long term welfare is generally a thing of the past. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act of 1996 changed welfare to Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) with a five year limit on cash assistance in addition to verification of employment search while receiving assistance. Unemployment benefits require that you actually worked in the first place and also have a time limit.

Who doesn't work?

1) some wealthy people who don't have to
2) some people with intellectual and/or emotional disabilities with no one to care for them who end up living in the street (and being regularly insulted by people telling them to "get a job")
3) people who can't find work but are looking (generally a temporary condition)
4) unmarried adult males who live in their parents basements playing video games and trolling the internet all day

[JustWinBaby]

(05-22-2015, 05:30 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Who doesn't work?

People without a job, obviously.

And people know how to work the system. There are plenty of people who ***** that could have a job but don't because they think it's beneath them And even more people sitting around saying "woe is me" because they are unwilling to relocate to where the jobs are.

There are many excuses today that have become acceptable that people would have simply called lazy 20-30 years ago.

[Yojimbo]

(05-22-2015, 05:30 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Who doesn't 'get a job' now days?

If you were saying this in the 70's or 80's, you may have had a point. But long term welfare is generally a thing of the past. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act of 1996 changed welfare to Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) with a five year limit on cash assistance in addition to verification of employment search while receiving assistance. Unemployment benefits require that you actually worked in the first place and also have a time limit.

Who doesn't work?

1) some wealthy people who don't have to
2) some people with intellectual and/or emotional disabilities with no one to care for them who end up living in the street (and being regularly insulted by people telling them to "get a job")
3) people who can't find work but are looking (generally a temporary condition)
4) unmarried adult males who live in their parents basements playing video games and trolling the internet all day

Hey I work!

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2015, 06:14 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: And even more people sitting around saying "woe is me" because they are unwilling to relocate to where the jobs are.

Yea, but China is so far away.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-21-2015, 09:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:  My grandmother made minimum wage until the day she retired, and was the first female to ever graduate from her High School, but it never stopped her from being the happiest person I've ever known.  

Folks, if you want to make more money, then make yourself worth more.  
The bottom line.

Did you ever tell Granny to get off her lazy ass and make something of herself or she is doomed to work minimum wage jobs until she retires?

[Belsnickel]

When I think of income inequality I don't think about those without a job, that's a different fight. I don't even think of minimum wage issues because I don't like a federal minimum wage and so do not like to see one being set.

As for the overall topic of income inequality. The topic is more about the widening wage gap and the elimination of the middle class. The CEO v. worker pay has already been brought up, which is a huge talking point in the conversation. But the thing to me is how many people we see out there doing what they were supposed to and still struggling? The reason why we talk about the issue of student debt is because when we started having these student loans they would get out of college and find a decent enough job to support a family, pay down their loans, live in suburbia, etc. Now they get out of college and they are lucky to find a job that pays them enough for living expenses and to pay down their loans.

There are a large number of reasons for all of this. Partly to blame is the rising cost of college increasing the amount of loans being taken out. The aging workforce also has a lot to do with it. Fewer people are retiring at the age when most people used to. This has to do with a need for money but also because with so many being employed in an industry where physical exertion isn't a requirement they can work longer than someone in a physically demanding job.

There are just a lot of things at play here currently making things very difficult for people trying to make their way in the world. Has nothing to do with laziness, has nothing to do with the minimum wage, but it is creating a society of the wealthy, the poor, and the working poor with no middle class upon which this country has relied for decades.