Louisville Will Erupt!

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2020, 07:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It is a bold strategy; I'm sure we can all agree that it limits any violence and rioting.  

Maybe I am just unclear on what you mean by "heavy handed".  To me that terms means physical violence.

What exactly are they doing?

[Tiger Teeth]

Whoa. Looks like I touched a nerve. Sorry, but I'm interested in people's opinions about what will happen tonight in Louisville. I am not looking for views on how it got this way.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-23-2020, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually, no, we never established that.

What was established was that it was that it was a silly false equivalency argument.

No, we definitely established it.  Thank you.

[*bfine32*]

(09-23-2020, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe I am just unclear on what you mean by "heavy handed".  To me that terms means physical violence.

What exactly are they doing?

They established an area where folks couldn't protest in efforts to protect downtown businesses. When folks violated that directive, they were detained and pushed back by organized police lines

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-23-2020, 06:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: According to some people that is all it takes to end the protesting and rioting.

So lets see what happens.

Well, we've definitely established that doing not a damn thing does nothing but enable them. 

[Mickeypoo]

(09-23-2020, 05:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a major point.  I had never heard any neighbor say that they heard the police announce who they were.  No one who called 911 said anything about the police being involved, and the neighbor immediately next door to Taylor said she never heard the police announce who they were.

Seems kind of strange that they would go to the trouble to obtain a "no knock" warrant then knock and announce who they were.

I heard the 3 officers at the residence were not the ones who obtained the warrant.  So maybe not so strange?

[*bfine32*]

Officers down

[Benton]

I was hopeful for Cameron. I met him prior to the election. He spoke rationally, had a good energy.

Between this and his fervor for Beshear, he's just coming across as someone who really, really wants a higher office.

Which is unfortunate. If he wanted to make it a political issue, he could've made it an issue about heinous 'no-knock' warrants. Instead, he's good with the continued restriction of rights as long as it keeps with party line and expansion of government.

What a let down.

[*bfine32*]

(09-23-2020, 10:11 PM)Benton Wrote: I was hopeful for Cameron. I met him prior to the election. He spoke rationally, had a good energy.

Between this and his fervor for Beshear, he's just coming across as someone who really, really wants a higher office.

Which is unfortunate. If he wanted to make it a political issue, he could've made it an issue about heinous 'no-knock' warrants. Instead, he's good with the continued restriction of rights as long as it keeps with party line and expansion of government.

What a let down.

Why would an AG want to make it a political issue?

[Benton]

(09-23-2020, 10:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why would an AG want to make it a political issue?

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/breonna-taylor/2020/09/23/donald-trump-praises-daniel-cameron-wake-breonna-taylor-decision/3511197001/

I dunno, maybe because he's an elected official hoping to achieve a higher status than KyAG? And he's getting support from the highest republican in office?

I dunno.

[*bfine32*]

(09-23-2020, 10:37 PM)Benton Wrote: https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/breonna-taylor/2020/09/23/donald-trump-praises-daniel-cameron-wake-breonna-taylor-decision/3511197001/

I dunno, maybe because he's an elected official hoping to achieve a higher status than KyAG? And he's getting support from the highest republican in office?

I dunno.

Oh, POTUS agreed with his handling of the Brionna Taylor case, so the AG has a separate motive other that presenting the facts as found by the Grand Jury. 

He definitely could have made it political  given as Louisville is ran by a Democratic mayor, but to his credit, he did not. He called the Taylor family prior to his announcement and talked with them personally. 

Your assertion that he was looking for anything other than the truth is typical

[Benton]

(09-23-2020, 10:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, POTUS agreed with his handling of the Brionna Taylor case, so the AG has a separate motive other that presenting the facts as found by the Grand Jury. 

He definitely could have made it political  given as Louisville is ran by a Democratic mayor, but to his credit, he did not. He called the Taylor family prior to his announcement and talked with them personally. 

Your assertion that he was looking for anything other than the truth is typical

Typical of what?

Cameron has had multiple chances during his short time to decide to do something other than keep party interests at heart. He's fallen in line every time.

For those of us that hoped he was something more than a republican shill, were disappointed.

[Millhouse]

(09-23-2020, 09:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Officers down

Apparently earlier it was caught that some guy was yelling at the cops saying 'you all are going to die' (to paraphrase). NOt at the cops who were shot, but at the police in general.

Pretty effed up.

[*bfine32*]

(09-23-2020, 11:33 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Apparently earlier it was caught that some guy was yelling at the cops saying 'you all are going to die' (to paraphrase). NOt at the cops who were shot, but at the police in general.

Pretty effed up.

it is and they are fed by the thoughts of the evil or the ignorant; why is worse.

The AG did a thorough investigation,notified the family of the charges before announced, then came on and explained exactly how and why they found the charges they did. But there are those that will go against all rationality and assert he had motive other than the truth. Not they can disagree with the truth; they just don't like it.

On a good note it appears both officer's injuries are non-life threatening.  

[Benton]

(09-23-2020, 11:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: it is and they are fed by the thoughts of the evil or the ignorant; why is worse.

The AG did a thorough investigation,notified the family of the charges before announced, then came on and explained exactly how and why they found the charges they did. But there are those that will go against all rationality and assert he had motive other than the truth. Not they can disagree with the truth; they just don't like it.

On a good note it appears both officer's injuries are non-life threatening.  

Rand Paul was right in citing the case in attempting to end no knock warrants. Cameron was wrong in saying the police did nothing wrong in suspending Constitutional rights which resulted in the death of an unarmed civilian.

Hopefully, people in Kentucky are better than seeking retribution against poor police policy.

[Belsnickel]

(09-23-2020, 11:49 PM)Benton Wrote: Rand Paul was right in citing the case in attempting to end no knock warrants. Cameron was wrong in saying the police did nothing wrong in suspending Constitutional rights which resulted in the death of an unarmed civilian.

Hopefully, people in Kentucky are better than seeking retribution against poor police policy.

Cameron was especially wrong given that there was a civil settlement.

[Belsnickel]

I held off on commenting on this last night because I had some things going on and I really wanted to mull it over. A lot of things I saw on social media from some of the ACAB folks talked about how ridiculous this was when the city admitted some sort of culpability by settling the lawsuit. Here is why I think what Cameron said was wrong, but also have no issue with the decision by the Grand Jury. Something can violate the law, can violate procedures, but can also not rise to the level of criminality.

This has prompted me to think even more about the whole situation in this country, in general. First off, this should in no way be taken as me saying that if a LEO does something they shouldn't that they should never be charged criminally. Investigations, grand jury hearings, and potential charges should all still be happening. What we need to be doing, though, is recognizing what these civil cases are costing us. When a city settles for millions of dollars, that is taxpayer money that is being spent because something was done that shouldn't have been. Even if it doesn't rise to the level of criminality, something wrong occurred and we need to recognize that. Focusing on these civil cases, though, keeps the focus on the system. The system screwed up, procedures weren't followed as they should be or, if they were, the procedures are flawed in some way. We need to take this and say to the city, state, whoever, "look, I don't want my money being spent on things like this. Let's figure out how to fix it."

This goes to the conversation I had in another thread about focusing on the system and not the individuals. I mean, if a cop is running around with white nationalist groups and what not, fine, flame the bastard, but most of these instances occur because a cop was following what they saw to be the correct decision and policy probably backed them up. That means we need to put our focus on the system and see how we can fix that.

Anyway, this is the end of my not-quite-awake rant of the day.

[GMDino]

Anger and frustration in the hands of people who feel their words are not heard is a dangerous thing.  Always was, always will be.  No mater what group those people are in.

Violence is never the answer.

Even amidst the profound grief & anger today's decision generated, violence is never & can never be the answer. Those who engage in it must be held accountable. Jill & I are keeping the officers shot tonight in Louisville in our prayers. We wish them both a swift & full recovery.

— Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) September 24, 2020

 

The POTUS also commented.

Praying for the two police officers that were shot tonight in Louisville, Kentucky. The Federal Government stands behind you and is ready to help. Spoke to @GovAndyBeshear and we are prepared to work together, immediately upon request!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 24, 2020

Two hours later:

LAW & ORDER!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 24, 2020

[GMDino]

(09-24-2020, 07:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I held off on commenting on this last night because I had some things going on and I really wanted to mull it over. A lot of things I saw on social media from some of the ACAB folks talked about how ridiculous this was when the city admitted some sort of culpability by settling the lawsuit. Here is why I think what Cameron said was wrong, but also have no issue with the decision by the Grand Jury. Something can violate the law, can violate procedures, but can also not rise to the level of criminality.

This has prompted me to think even more about the whole situation in this country, in general. First off, this should in no way be taken as me saying that if a LEO does something they shouldn't that they should never be charged criminally. Investigations, grand jury hearings, and potential charges should all still be happening. What we need to be doing, though, is recognizing what these civil cases are costing us. When a city settles for millions of dollars, that is taxpayer money that is being spent because something was done that shouldn't have been. Even if it doesn't rise to the level of criminality, something wrong occurred and we need to recognize that. Focusing on these civil cases, though, keeps the focus on the system. The system screwed up, procedures weren't followed as they should be or, if they were, the procedures are flawed in some way. We need to take this and say to the city, state, whoever, "look, I don't want my money being spent on things like this. Let's figure out how to fix it."

This goes to the conversation I had in another thread about focusing on the system and not the individuals. I mean, if a cop is running around with white nationalist groups and what not, fine, flame the bastard, but most of these instances occur because a cop was following what they saw to be the correct decision and policy probably backed them up. That means we need to put our focus on the system and see how we can fix that.

Anyway, this is the end of my not-quite-awake rant of the day.

The problem I see Matt is that too many people don't want to even talk about it.  It's hard to no where to start (Federal, state, local) when there can't even be a conversation about general reform without being accused of everything under the sun.  Both sides.

[CJD]

I knew this Taylor thing was going to end badly for everyone involved.

Situations like this have no clear resolution because the police in the shooting were technically working within their legal bounds, and so was Breonna Taylor's boyfriend.

The outcome was unfortunate and predictable. Showing up to a person's house at night when they're sleeping and breaking in, even if you did announce yourself, is going to risk a violent reaction, if a gun is available.

Were the police who returned fire wrong? No, of course not. They were returning fire on someone who was firing at them. This is an understandable and logical thing to do. I personally don't think it was the correct decision, as the third officer showed they could have retreated to safety, but I understand that the gut reaction to being fired upon is to fire back.

Was the boyfriend or Breonna wrong? No, of course not. The boyfriend used his, as far as I know legal, gun to fire on people who had broken down his door. He said he was concerned that the ex boyfriend may be after Breonna because they had a falling out, if I recall correctly, where she broke contact with him. So his concerns were reasonable and, given the circumstance, his reaction was as well.

So that leaves Breonna in the crossfire of two people (or groups of people) who technically did nothing wrong.

How the hell do you get a satisfactory outcome from that?

I think the best way to quell unrest and lower the risk of further damage to not only the institution of law enforcement but also the people and property in Louisville would be to try the three officers for a lower form of murder. Maybe Negligent Homicide or manslaughter. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know exactly what charge would be appropriate. But then, like I said above, the police officers were just following orders and, for the most part, their training. So would that be a just outcome?

From my perspective, the biggest problem is not the individuals but the system as a whole. I understand why no knock warrants and approaching a house you suspect to have drugs or illegal money in it at night is advantageous. You don't want them to have the opportunity to "flush the evidence." But there is inherent danger in executing a warrant in this manner, as we saw. I'm glad Louisville ended the practice of no knock warrants as a result of this, but that's just one piece of the whole issue.

The only thing that is a 100% fact is that Breonna was wronged that night. That is indisputable. She was killed when she shouldn't have been and had those police come during the day, this would not have happened. They would have searched the apartment, found nothing and then went on their way. I believe they already had the drug dealer in custody by that time anyway, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe night warrants should be reserved for violent criminals, rather than people that maybe, possibly have something in their house but we don't know for sure.

The list could go on for what policies and behaviors could be changed to prevent this from happening, but it's all just a piece of the grander scale in which our society views black lives. The fact that the 3rd police officer was charged for damaging property, but not contributing to the death of an innocent woman is all the evidence you need that the justice system is broken. Her life was viewed as an unfortunate consequence of carrying out the law rather than the responsibility of a law enforcement establishment that too often shoots first and thinks later.

And we've already seen the backlash to this ruling, with two officers shot last night.

I don't know what the solution to this is, but ignoring it or just saying "nah, nothing wrong happened here" is not the solution and will only make things worse.

I sure hope police reform is coming soon...The country desperately needs it.