Louisville Will Erupt!

[*bfine32*]

(09-24-2020, 07:37 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Cameron was especially wrong given that there was a civil settlement.

You can argue the procedure was wrong and I don'r think anyone would be in favor on no knock warrants;especially at 1 am, but you cannot state the officers committed a crime by following them.The only officer that didn't follow correct procedure was charged with a crime. Now if his bullet had killed Taylor then folks would be just in their anger over him not being charged with manslaughter at the least. 

Cameron clearly stated in his explanation that criminal law isn't or doesn't always seem fair, but one must put their emotions aside and interpret the law.

The 

[Belsnickel]

(09-24-2020, 10:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You can argue the procedure was wrong and I don'r think anyone would be in favor on no knock warrants;especially at 1 am, but you cannot state the officers committed a crime by following them.The only officer that didn't follow correct procedure was charged with a crime. Now if his bullet had killed Taylor then folks would be just in their anger over him not being charged with manslaughter at the least. 

Cameron clearly stated in his explanation that criminal law isn't or doesn't always seem fair, but one must put their emotions aside and interpret the law.

The 

You should read my post after that one liner response to Benton.

[*bfine32*]

(09-24-2020, 10:01 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I knew this Taylor thing was going to end badly for everyone involved.

Situations like this have no clear resolution because the police in the shooting were technically working within their legal bounds, and so was Breonna Taylor's boyfriend.

The outcome was unfortunate and predictable. Showing up to a person's house at night when they're sleeping and breaking in, even if you did announce yourself, is going to risk a violent reaction, if a gun is available.

Were the police who returned fire wrong? No, of course not. They were returning fire on someone who was firing at them. This is an understandable and logical thing to do. I personally don't think it was the correct decision, as the third officer showed they could have retreated to safety, but I understand that the gut reaction to being fired upon is to fire back.

Was the boyfriend or Breonna wrong? No, of course not. The boyfriend used his, as far as I know legal, gun to fire on people who had broken down his door. He said he was concerned that the ex boyfriend may be after Breonna because they had a falling out, if I recall correctly, where she broke contact with him. So his concerns were reasonable and, given the circumstance, his reaction was as well.

So that leaves Breonna in the crossfire of two people (or groups of people) who technically did nothing wrong.

How the hell do you get a satisfactory outcome from that?

I think the best way to quell unrest and lower the risk of further damage to not only the institution of law enforcement would be to try the three officers for a lower form of murder. Maybe Negligent Homicide or manslaughter. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know exactly what charge would be appropriate. But then, like I said above, the police officers were just following orders and, for the most part, their training. So would that be a just outcome?

From my perspective, the biggest problem is not the individuals but the system as a whole. I understand why no knock warrants and approaching a house you suspect to have drugs or illegal money in it at night is advantageous. You don't want them to have the opportunity to "flush the evidence." But there is inherent danger in executing a warrant in this manner, as we saw. I'm glad Louisville ended the practice of no knock warrants as a result of this, but that's just one piece of the whole issue.

The only thing that is a 100% fact is that Breonna was wronged that night. That is indisputable. She was killed when she shouldn't have been and had those police come during the day, this would not have happened. They would have searched the apartment, found nothing and then went on their way. I believe they already had the drug dealer in custody by that time anyway, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe night warrants should be reserved for violent criminals, rather than people that maybe, possibly have something in their house but we don't know for sure.

The list could go on for what policies and behaviors could be changed to prevent this from happening, but it's all just a piece of the grander scale in which our society views black lives. The fact that the 3rd police officer was charged for damaging property, but not contributing to the death of an innocent woman is all the evidence you need that the justice system is broken. Her life was viewed as an unfortunate consequence of carrying out the law rather than the responsibility of a law enforcement establishment that too often shoots first and thinks later.

And we've already seen the backlash to this ruling, with two officers shot last night.

I don't know what the solution to this is, but ignoring it or just saying "nah, nothing wrong happened here" is not the solution and will only make things worse.

I sure hope police reform is coming soon...The country desperately needs it.

A very rational response. And I think we've seen the city concede they procedure was flawed in awarding Brionna's family $12 MIL. The city has taken steps to abolish the procedure locally and Rand Paul (who was verbally assaulted by "say her namer's" at the GOP Convention) has introduced legislation federally to abolish the procedure.

[*bfine32*]

(09-24-2020, 10:12 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You should read my post after that one liner response to Benton.

I did; however, I saw nothing in it to dispute your one liner; therefore, I felt compelled to do so. You expanded response actually acknowledges the situation but doubles down on Camaeron was wrong. 

[GMDino]

(09-24-2020, 10:01 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I knew this Taylor thing was going to end badly for everyone involved.

Situations like this have no clear resolution because the police in the shooting were technically working within their legal bounds, and so was Breonna Taylor's boyfriend.

The outcome was unfortunate and predictable. Showing up to a person's house at night when they're sleeping and breaking in, even if you did announce yourself, is going to risk a violent reaction, if a gun is available.

Were the police who returned fire wrong? No, of course not. They were returning fire on someone who was firing at them. This is an understandable and logical thing to do. I personally don't think it was the correct decision, as the third officer showed they could have retreated to safety, but I understand that the gut reaction to being fired upon is to fire back.

Was the boyfriend or Breonna wrong? No, of course not. The boyfriend used his, as far as I know legal, gun to fire on people who had broken down his door. He said he was concerned that the ex boyfriend may be after Breonna because they had a falling out, if I recall correctly, where she broke contact with him. So his concerns were reasonable and, given the circumstance, his reaction was as well.

So that leaves Breonna in the crossfire of two people (or groups of people) who technically did nothing wrong.

How the hell do you get a satisfactory outcome from that?

I think the best way to quell unrest and lower the risk of further damage to not only the institution of law enforcement would be to try the three officers for a lower form of murder. Maybe Negligent Homicide or manslaughter. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know exactly what charge would be appropriate. But then, like I said above, the police officers were just following orders and, for the most part, their training. So would that be a just outcome?

From my perspective, the biggest problem is not the individuals but the system as a whole. I understand why no knock warrants and approaching a house you suspect to have drugs or illegal money in it at night is advantageous. You don't want them to have the opportunity to "flush the evidence." But there is inherent danger in executing a warrant in this manner, as we saw. I'm glad Louisville ended the practice of no knock warrants as a result of this, but that's just one piece of the whole issue.

The only thing that is a 100% fact is that Breonna was wronged that night. That is indisputable. She was killed when she shouldn't have been and had those police come during the day, this would not have happened. They would have searched the apartment, found nothing and then went on their way. I believe they already had the drug dealer in custody by that time anyway, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe night warrants should be reserved for violent criminals, rather than people that maybe, possibly have something in their house but we don't know for sure.

The list could go on for what policies and behaviors could be changed to prevent this from happening, but it's all just a piece of the grander scale in which our society views black lives. The fact that the 3rd police officer was charged for damaging property, but not contributing to the death of an innocent woman is all the evidence you need that the justice system is broken. Her life was viewed as an unfortunate consequence of carrying out the law rather than the responsibility of a law enforcement establishment that too often shoots first and thinks later.

And we've already seen the backlash to this ruling, with two officers shot last night.

I don't know what the solution to this is, but ignoring it or just saying "nah, nothing wrong happened here" is not the solution and will only make things worse.

I sure hope police reform is coming soon...The country desperately needs it.

Very well said.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

An officer in Seattle was struck in the head with an aluminum bat.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/seattle-cop-hit-on-head-with-baseball-bat-as-13-arrested-in-protests/

But don't worry, the protests were "largely peaceful".

[Goalpost]

So I am correct in finding out that a knock on the door actually happened. That what was reported as the people adjacent didn't hear one has been changed to...but the people upstairs did. Maybe it is meaningless, but the AG seemed to want to get that one out there

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 10:44 AM)Goalpost Wrote: So I am correct in finding out that a knock on the door actually happened.  That what was reported as the people adjacent didn't hear one has been changed to...but the people upstairs did.  Maybe it is meaningless, but the AG seemed to want to get that one out there

It happened at 1am, right? I can tell you that someone could POUND on my neighbor's door and I ain't gonna hear it as I'm in bed asleep. Even if I was awake, I MIGHT hear a really loud pounding in my bedroom if the TV isn't on.

[Belsnickel]

You know what would've helped determine whether or not police announced themselves? Body cams.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 10:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You know what would've helped determine whether or not police announced themselves? Body cams.

I was going to put that in my post, but I changed my mind at the last minute. 

Is there anyone not in favor of body cams? It is my understanding that many police officers are actually in favor of them as well.

[Belsnickel]

(09-24-2020, 10:53 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I was going to put that in my post, but I changed my mind at the last minute. 

Is there anyone not in favor of body cams? It is my understanding that many police officers are actually in favor of them as well.

Actually, there have been some ACAB folks against them.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 10:54 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Actually, there have been some ACAB folks against them.

I know, but I mean RATIONALE people. 

[masonbengals fan]

(09-24-2020, 10:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You know what would've helped determine whether or not police announced themselves? Body cams.

Absolutely

[Millhouse]

Colin Kaepernick is addressing the Breonna Taylor decision ... calling for the end of law enforcement and referring to it as a "white supremacist institution."
"The white supremacist institution of policing that stole Breonna Taylor’s life from us must be abolished for the safety and well being of our people," Kap tweeted.

https://www.tmz.com/2020/09/23/donovan-mitchell-nba-stars-furious-reaction-breonna-taylor-case/

I'm sure many brothas down in the hood will make sure will take care of the safety and well being of their neighbors. Kind of reminds me of that Chris Rock bit from his HBO special years ago. 'When I am at the atm tonight, I aint looking over my shoulder for the media, I'm looking for some ... ".

[masonbengals fan]

What exactly/specifically in the Breonna Taylor case is a black/white/whatever/racism issue ?

[Mickeypoo]

(09-24-2020, 12:49 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: What exactly/specifically in the Breonna Taylor case is a black/white/whatever/racism issue ?

Nothing.  And the same with the other high profile cop shootings lately.

[*bfine32*]

(09-24-2020, 12:49 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: What exactly/specifically in the Breonna Taylor case is a black/white/whatever/racism issue ?

You could ask this about every high profile killing that the evil or ignorant choose to make about race. 

[GMDino]

(09-24-2020, 12:42 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Colin Kaepernick is addressing the Breonna Taylor decision ... calling for the end of law enforcement and referring to it as a "white supremacist institution."
"The white supremacist institution of policing that stole Breonna Taylor’s life from us must be abolished for the safety and well being of our people," Kap tweeted.

https://www.tmz.com/2020/09/23/donovan-mitchell-nba-stars-furious-reaction-breonna-taylor-case/

I'm sure many brothas down in the hood will make sure will take care of the safety and well being of their neighbors. Kind of reminds me of that Chris Rock bit from his HBO special years ago. 'When I am at the atm tonight, I aint looking over my shoulder for the media, I'm looking for some ... ".

When people get angry they can say stupid things.  Even if they shouldn't be angry.

[Benton]

(09-24-2020, 10:44 AM)Goalpost Wrote: So I am correct in finding out that a knock on the door actually happened.  That what was reported as the people adjacent didn't hear one has been changed to...but the people upstairs did.  Maybe it is meaningless, but the AG seemed to want to get that one out there

There's some reports that the original warrant was changed from 'no knock' to 'knock and enter'. Honestly, I haven't seen a copy of it so I couldn't speak to the wording.

There are also conflicting reports on the knocking and entering. Several neighbors agree there was knocking before they entered, but only one said the knockers identified themselves as police.

But overall, the biggest issue for some is why there was a no knock warrant issued in the first place. The police were on an expedition; the warrant was issued based on the fact that Taylor's ex-boyfriend had sometimes received packages there in the past which may have contained drugs. The ex resided 10 miles away and they hadn't been together in two years.

That's all it took to suspend her rights. She'd dated a guy who sold drugs miles away from her apartment.

I hope people don't misunderstand: the police were correct in returning fire. They were being fired upon. The problem is, their reason for being in the apartment at all was circumstantial and most likely could have been solved by having a conversation with Taylor.

(09-24-2020, 10:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You know what would've helped determine whether or not police announced themselves? Body cams.

No kidding.

(09-24-2020, 12:49 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: What exactly/specifically in the Breonna Taylor case is a black/white/whatever/racism issue ?

None, that I know of. I couldn't tell you what race the cops are, the judge who signed the warrant or what race the boyfriend is.

It's really not a racial issue, but instead about the over reach of authority. Which is why some people are finding fault with Cameron. 

[CJD]

(09-24-2020, 10:01 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I knew this Taylor thing was going to end badly for everyone involved.

Situations like this have no clear resolution because the police in the shooting were technically working within their legal bounds, and so was Breonna Taylor's boyfriend.

The outcome was unfortunate and predictable. Showing up to a person's house at night when they're sleeping and breaking in, even if you did announce yourself, is going to risk a violent reaction, if a gun is available.

Were the police who returned fire wrong? No, of course not. They were returning fire on someone who was firing at them. This is an understandable and logical thing to do. I personally don't think it was the correct decision, as the third officer showed they could have retreated to safety, but I understand that the gut reaction to being fired upon is to fire back.

Was the boyfriend or Breonna wrong? No, of course not. The boyfriend used his, as far as I know legal, gun to fire on people who had broken down his door. He said he was concerned that the ex boyfriend may be after Breonna because they had a falling out, if I recall correctly, where she broke contact with him. So his concerns were reasonable and, given the circumstance, his reaction was as well.

So that leaves Breonna in the crossfire of two people (or groups of people) who technically did nothing wrong.

How the hell do you get a satisfactory outcome from that?

I think the best way to quell unrest and lower the risk of further damage to not only the institution of law enforcement but also the people and property in Louisville would be to try the three officers for a lower form of murder. Maybe Negligent Homicide or manslaughter. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know exactly what charge would be appropriate. But then, like I said above, the police officers were just following orders and, for the most part, their training. So would that be a just outcome?

From my perspective, the biggest problem is not the individuals but the system as a whole. I understand why no knock warrants and approaching a house you suspect to have drugs or illegal money in it at night is advantageous. You don't want them to have the opportunity to "flush the evidence." But there is inherent danger in executing a warrant in this manner, as we saw. I'm glad Louisville ended the practice of no knock warrants as a result of this, but that's just one piece of the whole issue.

The only thing that is a 100% fact is that Breonna was wronged that night. That is indisputable. She was killed when she shouldn't have been and had those police come during the day, this would not have happened. They would have searched the apartment, found nothing and then went on their way. I believe they already had the drug dealer in custody by that time anyway, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe night warrants should be reserved for violent criminals, rather than people that maybe, possibly have something in their house but we don't know for sure.

The list could go on for what policies and behaviors could be changed to prevent this from happening, but it's all just a piece of the grander scale in which our society views black lives. The fact that the 3rd police officer was charged for damaging property, but not contributing to the death of an innocent woman is all the evidence you need that the justice system is broken. Her life was viewed as an unfortunate consequence of carrying out the law rather than the responsibility of a law enforcement establishment that too often shoots first and thinks later.

And we've already seen the backlash to this ruling, with two officers shot last night.

I don't know what the solution to this is, but ignoring it or just saying "nah, nothing wrong happened here" is not the solution and will only make things worse.

I sure hope police reform is coming soon...The country desperately needs it.

Why are both left leaners and right leaners repping this post?

That's not supposed to happen on this message board!