Louisville Will Erupt!

[masonbengals fan]

(09-25-2020, 02:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, I proud of the city and they protesters. Of course we had the 2 officers shot, but the person was quickly taken into custody with the help of protesters.  There has been some vandalizing but no looting.

Now over the weekend I expect out of town agitators to descend on the city and stir things up. I hope those on both sides reject them. 

Good post...I was glad that witnesses/protestors spoke up too. I don't believe much of that is happening in other  bigger cities.

[*bfine32*]

(09-25-2020, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So I guess since 100% of the black people in the South were not lynched by the KKK that means the KKK were not racist.  What logical  white person could possibly disagree with that argument? 



It is possible that they never would have used outdated information to get a "no knock" warrant against a white girl who had dated a drug dealer 2 years ago.


But the murder was justified by a white District Attorney who is a part of the criminal justice system.

You didn't answer the question

You didn't answer the question

And the DA in Louisville is Black. 

[*bfine32*]

(09-25-2020, 03:29 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I believe that it was hitting on Fred's point of, "The Existence of Racism today in America is a Fact."

Sure is, but I was discussing why the current high profile deaths weren't because of racist policing. As usual I got because of KKK.

Jim Crow and Nazis are sure to follow. 

[*PhilHos*]

(09-25-2020, 02:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But based on the life experiences of minorities they think racism is an issue  unless there is some clear and convincing evidence that it is not.  

Based on life experiences of conservatives, they think the media is biased against them. By your logic, then, there is an anti-conservative bias in the media unless there is clear and convincing evidence that there is not. Correct?

Perception is not always reality.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-25-2020, 02:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Racial profiling by law enforcement is a fact.

No it's not.  Do individual officers sometimes engage in a tactic that could fall under this definition, sure.  Is it systemic in law enforcement no.  So, not a fact.

Quote:Police lying to cover up for bad cops is a fact.

It happens much less frequently than people like you believe.

Quote:The existence of racism in America today is a fact.

Uh, the existence of racism in every single country on the planet is a fact.

Quote:Now please tell me what "fact" you have to prove that none of the recent killings/cover ups (George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmed Arbery) were in no way racially motivated. 

As other's have pointed out Aubrey was not killed by law enforcement.  Also, you don't have any facts that say they were killed because of their ethnicity.  That may well have been a motivating factor in the Floyd and Aubrey case, but you can't say it's a fact because it's not.  It may even be highly likely, but it's still not a fact.

Quote:I'll bet you don't have any.  Instead it is just your point of view. 

Oh man, this statement written by you brings an ear to ear grin to my face.

Quote:You don't think racism is ever an issue unless there is some sort of clear and convince proof that it is.  But based on the life experiences of minorities they think racism is an issue  unless there is some clear and convincing evidence that it is not. 

So he wants proof but you're on the side of no proof needed.  Quite an interesting perspective for a criminal law attorney.

Quote:Since there is usually no clear and convincing evidence either way you are always going to see things differently from minorities.  As a white person you have the privilege to assume that racism is never an issue.

You essentially just said that feelings trump facts, which they don't.  People are free to feel anyway they want, but that doesn't make their feelings factual.  I've absolutely seen instances were a person claimed they were being targeted for their ethnicity when their ethnicity had zero to do with it.  But even when the actual reason for contact is explained it's still racism in their mind.  I don't think anyone should apologize or feel less about themselves for actually wanting a fact based argument.

[Mickeypoo]

(09-25-2020, 02:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Racial profiling by law enforcement is a fact.

Police lying to cover up for bad cops is a fact.

The existence of racism in America today is a fact.

Now please tell me what "fact" you have to prove that none of the recent killings/cover ups (George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmed Arbery) were in no way racially motivated.  I'll bet you don't have any.  Instead it is just your point of view.  You don't think racism is ever an issue unless there is some sort of clear and convince proof that it is.  But based on the life experiences of minorities they think racism is an issue  unless there is some clear and convincing evidence that it is not.  Since there is usually no clear and convincing evidence either way you are always going to see things differently from minorities.  As a white person you have the privilege to assume that racism is never an issue.

And I bet you don't have any facts to prove they were not.  I watched the videos of those available and they sure don't appear racially motivated.  You cannot even prove Floyd was racially motivated.  Arbery I will give you.  That could be a definite possibility.

[Mickeypoo]

(09-25-2020, 03:29 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I believe that it was hitting on Fred's point of, "The Existence of Racism today in America is a Fact."

Of course there is racism.  There always will be and it goes both ways.  Racism is not white toward black only.  Is our country and police force systemically racist?  I don't by that for a minute.  Are there racists in our country and our police force.  Yes, of course.

[Dill]

(09-25-2020, 04:28 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Of course there is racism.  There always will be and it goes both ways.  Racism is not white toward black only.  Is our country and police force systemically racist?  I don't by that for a minute.  Are there racists in our country and our police force.  Yes, of course.

Mickey, I don't think racism of blacks towards whites, if it exists, is much of a problem. Maybe in middle schools or something. Or prisons. How many black parents teach their children that whites are mentally inferior and dirty?  How many white parents warn their children to be extra careful and polite around police because police are more likely to arrest whites? 

How many black judges are there inclined to punish whites for their "privilege" or some such? (How many black judges are there at all?) How many black prosecutors suppose that society is better served by pushing harsher sentences on whites? How many black bankers reject loans to white applicants because of where they live? I am trying to visualize how it "goes both ways."

Also what do you make of cases like the Ferguson MO Police Dept., which used fines imposed on black residents as a source of funding? That is difficult to explain by a few bad apples who supposedly don't spoil the barrel. Or do police depts. become the apples now, a few bad, most good?

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2020, 05:37 PM)Dill Wrote: Mickey, I don't think racism of blacks towards whites, if it exists, is much of a problem. Maybe in middle schools or something. Or prisons. How many black parents teach their children that whites are mentally inferior and dirty?  How many white parents warn their children to be extra careful and polite around police because police are more likely to arrest whites? 

How many black judges are there inclined to punish whites for their "privilege" or some such? (How many black judges are there at all?) How many black prosecutors suppose that society is better served by pushing harsher sentences on whites? How many black bankers reject loans to white applicants because of where they live? I am trying to visualize how it "goes both ways."

Also what do you make of cases like the Ferguson MO Police Dept., which used fines imposed on black residents as a source of funding? That is difficult to explain by a few bad apples who supposedly don't spoil the barrel. Or do police depts. become the apples now, a few bad, most good?

Wanna bet?  As a grown man, and so has my wife in her work environment, found ourselves in situations where each of us has felt the hatred toward us, because of our race.  I know that you're a smart and educated individual, pretty good at argumentation and debate and all, but you should stick to factual topics.    

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-25-2020, 05:37 PM)Dill Wrote: Mickey, I don't think racism of blacks towards whites, if it exists, is much of a problem.

It's interesting that you say that.  We recently had a case where a group of black kids beat the crap out of an old man after accosting him because they "hate white people".  I'm sure he'll be relieved that you don't think this is much of a problem though.  He and all the other people I've seen victimized in a similar way.

Quote:Maybe in middle schools or something. Or prisons. How many black parents teach their children that whites are mentally inferior and dirty?  How many white parents warn their children to be extra careful and polite around police because police are more likely to arrest whites? 

How many black judges are there inclined to punish whites for their "privilege" or some such? (How many black judges are there at all?) How many black prosecutors suppose that society is better served by pushing harsher sentences on whites? How many black bankers reject loans to white applicants because of where they live? I am trying to visualize how it "goes both ways."

Also what do you make of cases like the Ferguson MO Police Dept., which used fines imposed on black residents as a source of funding? That is difficult to explain by a few bad apples who supposedly don't spoil the barrel. Or do police depts. become the apples now, a few bad, most good?

Yes, the old "it's only racism if you use institutional power" argument.  I don't think you, and others who think like you, know how much damage you actually do to the cause you claim to support.  Your position utterly alienates large amounts of people who would otherwise be receptive to your core message, that we need to be cognizant of, and address, racism in this country.  When you minimize or excuse racism committed by any group other than whites what you essentially say is that those who have been victimized in that way don't matter.  It also excuses, intentionally or not, the obvious racism present in ethnic groups other than whites.

A much better way to state this case would be to say that we should address racism in all forms but we should also be cognizant that, as of this moment, institutional racism is the most actively harmful to the largest group of people.  Don't excuse, mitigate or minimize victims of racism who are white simply because you don't think their experiences are important enough.  If your serious about attempting to end racism that is.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-25-2020, 06:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Wanna bet?  As a grown man, and so has my wife in her work environment, found ourselves in situations where each of us has felt the hatred toward us, because of our race.  I know that you're a smart and educated individual, pretty good at argumentation and debate and all, but you should stick to factual topics.    

You just didn't suffer enough to make your experiences matter to some people.

[Benton]

(09-25-2020, 05:37 PM)Dill Wrote: Mickey, I don't think racism of blacks towards whites, if it exists, is much of a problem. Maybe in middle schools or something. Or prisons. How many black parents teach their children that whites are mentally inferior and dirty?  How many white parents warn their children to be extra careful and polite around police because police are more likely to arrest whites? 

How many black judges are there inclined to punish whites for their "privilege" or some such? (How many black judges are there at all?) How many black prosecutors suppose that society is better served by pushing harsher sentences on whites? How many black bankers reject loans to white applicants because of where they live? I am trying to visualize how it "goes both ways."

Also what do you make of cases like the Ferguson MO Police Dept., which used fines imposed on black residents as a source of funding? That is difficult to explain by a few bad apples who supposedly don't spoil the barrel. Or do police depts. become the apples now, a few bad, most good?

Only white people are predisposed to have preferences for people more similar to them?

[fredtoast]

(09-25-2020, 03:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You didn't answer the question

You didn't answer the question

And the DA in Louisville is Black. 

All the black people with george floyd were not killed because an officer did not choke all of them to death.  So what is your point?

The officers should have returned fire, but that does not have anything to do with with the possible racism involved in targeting Breonna Taylor.

The DA did not obtain the search warrant.

From now on can you please just make the point you want to directly and simpley instead of going through these obtuse questions that don't even address the points I am making?

[fredtoast]

(09-25-2020, 03:38 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Based on life experiences of conservatives, they think the media is biased against them. By your logic, then, there is an anti-conservative bias in the media unless there is clear and convincing evidence that there is not. Correct?

Perception is not always reality.

The existence of racism and racial profiling in America is not just "perception".  It has been proven to exist.

The issue of bias in the media is a silly comparison unless you want to say that the number one news network in the world is not part of the media.

[fredtoast]

(09-25-2020, 06:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Wanna bet?  As a grown man, and so has my wife in her work environment, found ourselves in situations where each of us has felt the hatred toward us, because of our race.  I know that you're a smart and educated individual, pretty good at argumentation and debate and all, but you should stick to factual topics.    

All races are guilty of racism.  But you have never been faced with institutional racism.  You are a member of the race that controls a grossly disproportionate percentage of the wealth and power in this country.

"Feeling hatred" (not sure exactly what that means) is not the same as being the victim of oppression by the majority through policies controlled by banks, businesses, and government agencies.

[fredtoast]

(09-25-2020, 04:28 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote:   Is our country and police force systemically racist?  I don't by that for a minute. 

You don't have to buy it.  There have been multiple cases of racial profiling that have been proven.  Multiple studies that show red-lining is real.  Multiple studies that show applications for housing and employment are treated differently based on on the 'ethnicity" of the applicants name.

It is real whether you want to believe it or not.

[Dill]

(09-25-2020, 06:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's interesting that you say that.  We recently had a case where a group of black kids beat the crap out of an old man after accosting him because they "hate white people".  I'm sure he'll be relieved that you don't think this is much of a problem though.  He and all the other people I've seen victimized in a similar way.

Yes, the old "it's only racism if you use institutional power" argument.  I don't think you, and others who think like you, know how much damage you actually do to the cause you claim to support.  Your position utterly alienates large amounts of people who would otherwise be receptive to your core message, that we need to be cognizant of, and address, racism in this country.  When you minimize or excuse racism committed by any group other than whites what you essentially say is that those who have been victimized in that way don't matter.  It also excuses, intentionally or not, the obvious racism present in ethnic groups other than whites.

A much better way to state this case would be to say that we should address racism in all forms but we should also be cognizant that, as of this moment, institutional racism is the most actively harmful to the largest group of people.  Don't excuse, mitigate or minimize victims of racism who are white simply because you don't think their experiences are important enough.  If your serious about attempting to end racism that is.

Nothing in my post suggests there couldn't be black people who say they "hate whites" and beat them up or rob them. But you decided to respond as if it did.

Actually, it's not the old "it's only racism if you use institutional power" argument. But perhaps that is an easier position to argue against.

You probably got that impression because my question made clear that many more whites are in positions power, where racist assumptions might affect others, than blacks. And they have been for 400 years. (Which is the primary reason why some blacks "hate" whites; not some ideology of black supremacy.) But no, you are actually arguing the same point yourself. Just not clearly.

Why aren't you "alienating large numbers of people" when you repeat my argument as yours, saying that "as of this moment, institutional racism is the most actively harmful to the largest group"? You think if you add "we need to address racism in all forms" then people who don't think there is systemic racism at all will suddenly be receptive to addressing "institutional racism"?  All they needed was to hear "There are blacks who hate whites too!"? 

They'll see immediately how the government can step into combat that institutional racism (as it already does), but they'll have the same difficulty I do figuring out how anyone is going to address "racism in all its forms"--other than with more talk about how people ought not to be racist.

[Dill]

(09-25-2020, 06:37 PM)Benton Wrote: Only white people are predisposed to have preferences for people more similar to them?

"Preferences"?  "Predispositions"? 

I actually don't think "races" have any natural preference to hang with their kind, though they may acquire such through socialization.

Preferences are ok, aren't they? I prefer steak. You prefer lobster.

But the preferences under discussion here are ideological, learned, and exercises of power when people are denied loans or receive longer sentences because of them.

We can't stop Irish from preferring to hang with Irish, and why would we want to? 
But we can stop redlining, for example, or laws intended to empower one group over another, even thought neither group is explicitly named.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2020, 08:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All races are guilty of racism.  But you have never been faced with institutional racism.  You are a member of the race that controls a grossly disproportionate percentage of the wealth and power in this country.

"Feeling hatred" (not sure exactly what that means) is not the same as being the victim of oppression by the majority through policies controlled by banks, businesses, and government agencies.

You should have just quit with the bolded.  After that, you're just pontificating upon some idealism..

[*bfine32*]

(09-25-2020, 07:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All the black people with george floyd were not killed because an officer did not choke all of them to death.  So what is your point?

The officers should have returned fire, but that does not have anything to do with with the possible racism involved in targeting Breonna Taylor.

The DA did not obtain the search warrant.

From now on can you please just make the point you want to directly and simpley instead of going through these obtuse questions that don't even address the points I am making?

The questions I asked were only obtuse because they were in response to a ridiculous assertion. 

Why didn't they choke them all to death if they were black and Floyd was killed because he was black?

At least you mention it's "possible" a little less than your earlier assertion, so we're making progress

Did a black DA "justify" the shooting of Taylor? 

I get it's sometimes hard to make shit about race, but you're decisive assertion that it was all about race was directly addressed.