MYTH: GOP is better for the Economy

[*Nately120*]

(05-23-2023, 02:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: I really wanted McCain to win in 2000...but the Bush team went dirty.

So I voted for him in 2008...but like with Biden, who I wanted to run in 2016, I did feel he was too old to run the second time.

Was McCain v Bush in 2000 where the "illegitimate half black son" accusation came from?  

[GMDino]

(05-23-2023, 02:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Was McCain v Bush in 2000 where the "illegitimate half black son" accusation came from?  

Daughter.  Ruined him in the South Carolina primary.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2018/04/02/john-mccain-2000-republican-presidential-campaign-george-w-bush-arizona-senator/537969001/

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-23-2023, 02:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Was McCain v Bush in 2000 where the "illegitimate half black son" accusation came from?  

It was a daughter, and we have POS Karl Rove to thank for that one.  Arguably one of the most vile human beings ever spawned on this Earth.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(05-23-2023, 10:41 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: These dovetail nicely as the answer from Forever was about what I expected.  You live in a deep red state.  In an island of blue to be sure, but your state level politics are red.  I live in a deep blue state.  As Bel pointed out, and anticipated why I asked, regional differences within the party can be rather stark.  I firmly believe that when one side becomes too ascendant then their politics go off the deep end.  When you no longer have to worry about an ideological opponent you start to out extreme the members of your own party.

You're wrong.

I live in an Independent state that leans Red. Alaska has the highest percentage of Independent voters in the country. Democrat Representative Mary Peltola won a special election when Don Young died and a few months later won the 2022 general election. The main reason most people voted for Young for so long was because he was always on committees that brought federal money and jobs to Alaska. Most held our noses when voting for him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Alaska

12.78% Democrat - 13.82% in 2018
24.05% Republican - 25.77% in 2018 - 28% before Trump
58% Unaffiliated - 55.25% in 2018 - 52% before Trump

And local or regional politics had almost zero impact in my growing distrust of Conservatives, but keep trying to form your own false narrative even after I stated 9/11 and Fox News as my reasons. It's the Conservative way, I guess, so you're assimilating just fine. Remember, I stated after Jan 6th and before Joe Biden took office that if Larry Hogan was the Republican nominee, I'd vote for him over Biden in 2024. I'm not as butthurt about Republicans as you are about Democrats. I don't have a party to leave. I don't have to fake outrage at one side and ignore similar crimes on 'my side'. If a politician that I backed committed crimes or immoral acts, I can drop them likethat! I don't ever have to twist to defend a politician because I'm much more of a fan of truth than political leanings at this point. The elected Republicans and the Conservative media are severely lacking in the trustworthy department compared to the Democrats at this time. The Republicans didn't even run on a platform in 2020. When the truth and facts are not on your side . . . Culture War! It's getting old.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-23-2023, 06:18 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: You're wrong.

I live in an Independent state that leans Red. Alaska has the highest percentage of Independent voters in the country. Democrat Representative Mary Peltola won a special election when Don Young died and a few months later won the 2022 general election. The main reason most people voted for Young for so long was because he was always on committees that brought federal money and jobs to Alaska. Most held our noses when voting for him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Alaska

Against Sarah Palin.  Need I say more?

Quote:12.78% Democrat - 13.82% in 2018
24.05% Republican - 25.77% in 2018 - 28% before Trump
58% Unaffiliated - 55.25% in 2018 - 52% before Trump

And local or regional politics had almost zero impact in my growing distrust of Conservatives, but keep trying to form your own false narrative even after I stated 9/11 and Fox News as my reasons. It's the Conservative way, I guess, so you're assimilating just fine. Remember, I stated after Jan 6th and before Joe Biden took office that if Larry Hogan was the Republican nominee, I'd vote for him over Biden in 2024. I'm not as butthurt about Republicans as you are about Democrats. I don't have a party to leave. I don't have to fake outrage at one side and ignore similar crimes on 'my side'. If a politician that I backed committed crimes or immoral acts, I can drop them likethat! I don't ever have to twist to defend a politician because I'm much more of a fan of truth than political leanings at this point. The elected Republicans and the Conservative media are severely lacking in the trustworthy department compared to the Democrats at this time. The Republicans didn't even run on a platform in 2020. When the truth and facts are not on your side . . . Culture War! It's getting old.

Hey cool, you disagree. This would seem to disagree with you, as would the history of federal politicians elected by Alaska.  Please don't feel the need to respond though, I don't think further discussion with you would be fruitful based on this screed.  But I certainly won't begrudge you the need to get in the last word.

[BigPapaKain]

The guy from Cali knows more about Alaska than the Alaskan.

Neat.

[Belsnickel]

(05-23-2023, 06:18 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: You're wrong.

I live in an Independent state that leans Red. Alaska has the highest percentage of Independent voters in the country. Democrat Representative Mary Peltola won a special election when Don Young died and a few months later won the 2022 general election. The main reason most people voted for Young for so long was because he was always on committees that brought federal money and jobs to Alaska. Most held our noses when voting for him.

That's just wrong.

Virginia is 100% independent voters. That's also because Virginia doesn't do party registration for voters.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-23-2023, 08:53 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The guy from Cali knows more about Alaska than the Alaskan.

Neat.

Cool, thanks.  I'll remember this logic the next time one of you tries to tell me what's going on in CA.  Please don't mention that Alaska has only gone Dem once in over sixty years in presidential elections.  I'm totally fine with you guys ascribing total expertise based on where you live, as long as you extend me the same courtesy.  Somehow I'm thinking that won't happen.  

[*pally*]

I think Alaska's federal results get rather skewed by the fact that they voted Don Young into the House for 50 straight years. He was really excellent at bringing home the pork. He died and his seat was turned by a Democrat.

We see the same constancy with the Murkowski family who between Lisa and her father have held that Senate seat for 40 years. Ted Stevens held the other Senate seat for 40 years until his death.

Alaskans don't like to change their politicians too often

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-23-2023, 11:07 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: This is his style. Declare bullshit, get proven wrong, then either pull the "respond if you must" or just disappear for a few weeks.

Quite the passive aggressive style. Very impressive.

Quote:Alaskan: I dis-trust Conservatives due to 9/11 and Fox News
Outsider: No. It's because of where you live. Alaska is a deep Red state

Way to reverse the order of the conversation.  You definitely are forever spinning, it's just not vinyl.  Impressive conspiracy theory though, interesting to watch other people lap that up.

Quote:Alaskan: Not really, it leans Red
Outsider: Sarah Palin? She can't win in a deep Red state. Victory!

The state has literally only voted Dem in a presidential election once in over sixty years.  Palin has been become a laughing stock in that past decade.  Hence her losing is hardly surprising.  Tell me more about 9/11 though, honestly, is it a GOP conspiracy?

Quote:It's why people like him should be in lawn enforcement instead of law enforcement.

Very mature, definitely showing the strength of your position here.  Quite the adult position you've taken here. 

[BigPapaKain]

(05-23-2023, 10:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Cool, thanks.  I'll remember this logic the next time one of you tries to tell me what's going on in CA.  Please don't mention that Alaska has only gone Dem once in over sixty years in presidential elections.  I'm totally fine with you guys ascribing total expertise based on where you live, as long as you extend me the same courtesy.  Somehow I'm thinking that won't happen.  

Except your link and the fact it's mostly red doesn't change the fact that an Alaskan told you that most folks are independent. Mostly conservative leaning independents, it would seem, but still independent.

People can only vote for the folks who run. If no hardline independent runs, and the folks are prone to lean right, who do you think they'd vote for?

I don't know Alaska's state constitution - I'll leave that to you to tell me since you know everything about everything all the time - so I don't know the rules for running for house, Senate, or governor.

[BigPapaKain]

(05-23-2023, 11:07 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: It's why people like him should be in lawn enforcement instead of law enforcement.

Well if that were the case, they'd statistically have a more dangerous job than they currently do.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

You two are precious. A well meaning post about hyper-partisanship and it's danger spawns a vitriolic diatribe and personal attacks. Please never wonder why this sub-forum is dying.

[BengalYankee]

(05-24-2023, 11:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You two are precious.  A well meaning post about hyper-partisanship and it's danger spawns a vitriolic diatribe and personal attacks.  Please never wonder why this sub-forum is dying.

[Dill]

(05-23-2023, 02:05 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I remember when McCain was speaking with that voter at the town hall thing and the woman said she's afraid of Obama because he's an Arab and McCain cut her off and said that he wasn't and that he wanted to focus on policy and so on.  I had a gf at the time who was a republican and she responded that McCain completely blew it by saying that and Obama was almost a shoe in now.

That was the point where I saw an educated republican admit that failing to lie and/or lean into culture war stuff that politicians and smart voters know is a lie but don't care about was harmful to the GOP's election chances.   Academically I get it, but the idea that McCain can't say that Obama is NOT a dangerous Arab was a sign where the party was headed.  

McCain and his style/supporters would eventually become an enemy to the Trumps and Kari Lakes of the world, so that says a lot, too.  Gore v McCain in 2000 would have been a more beneficial election in my mind, but thems the breaks.  I guess he really was a political fossil who got left behind by the shift of the right wing.

Yes, if getting power was all that mattered, then McCain did the wrong thing. He's the anti-McCarthy.

Liz Cheney would likely agree: the incentive structure in the GOP does not now reward people who stand on principles of decency and civility.
McCain grew up in an era when it did, and was unable to "adjust." 

This dovetails with what the Dominion Suit revealed--RWM and politicians know that they have to endorse conspiracies, lies they know are lies, and ugly, anti-democratic behavior to keep power. Or the voters will find other "leaders," and from Trump to Santos they'll hold tight to them whether their lies are exposed or not.  

That's the lesson drawn from McCain's encounter with the woman who'd heard Obama was an "Arab." 

The other crazy aspect of the present is that people may be called "partisan" for noting that the GOP now does things regularly
that no party did before, at least since 1945. It is structurally and functionally different now compared to 25 years ago. This cannot, however,
appear true to someone who thinks Trump really won and/or truly believes the Clintons have people killed; from that perspective, understandably, Dems are equally bad: "both sides do it."  Hence the strange phenomenon of "independents" who clearly espouse the priorities of one party over the other, but cannot identify with that party because they "lie equally" or present the same level of danger to the country.
That flies wherever people find it normal or unobjectionable that the guy who actually tried to steal an election remains the front runner
of his party--that includes people who aren't voting for Trump, and even claim to dislike him, but still don't see what the big problem is with
the fact that he can draw 50 million votes just like that-- with indictments still pending for sedition, obstruction of justice, theft of classified documents, and a liable finding in a defamation suit involving a sexual assault.

That's why discussions of the economy with the requisite data and graphs may not settle the issue of which party has historically been better. 
It's always really about something else. 

[Dill]

(05-23-2023, 09:07 AM)pally Wrote: Political beliefs don’t change overnight.  They evolve over time.  And in reality, my personal beliefs, especially in these “culture” ideas began to separate from the then mainstream Republican Party some time ago.  It just took Mitch McConnell and his block of Merrick Garland to finally say enough is enough.  It was at that point I stopped self identifying as a Republican.  Something similar occurs for many Catholics.  They will self identify themselves as Catholic but if you ask them the last time they went to church, they might say 20 or 30 years.  

This has been the track of many Republicans. MSNBC and CNN are full of Republican strategists and commentators who still hold traditional GOP ideals, but understand that their party has become something else. They know their party is broken and the country will never be back on track to "normal" until it is fixed. 

(05-23-2023, 09:07 AM)pally Wrote: For me the gradual liberalization came from exposure to a wide range of people while working in the hospitality industry.  Meeting, talking to, and working with immigrants, both documented and undocumented, changes perspectives.  Actually talking to people from all over the world who were refugees from war, famine, political unrest, natural disasters gives you a far better understanding of their motives and lives than a news report will give you.  
Meeting and working with people across the spectrum of the LGBTQ community teaches you that deep down they are no different from most of us.  They want a home and family, a fulfilling career, and to give back to their community. I had an employee who committed suicide by jumping off the Key Bridge in Washington DC.  He had been diagnosed with HIV.  His friends told us his religious family would accept suicide easier than finding out he was gay.  I found that horrifying.  Someone’s religious beliefs should not dictate how anyone else lives their lives.  And frankly, the lives of LGBTQ folks should not be kept in turmoil so pandering politicians can score points in their self driven culture wars.
Working with genuinely poor people opens you eyes to their realities.  90 minute multi transfer bus rides to work. Can’t work overtime because they have no way to get home.  Easily treated medical conditions if caught early turn into serious ones because they have no medical insurance. When every dime you make goes for daily survival, insurance is a luxury. Sadly, for too many hard work can only get them so far.  Escaping poverty in today’s world is far more difficult than it used to be.
Education is supposed to expose a child to the world.  It is not supposed to reinforce a government’s or family’s personal political or religious beliefs.

I’ve decided that in America that having a decent roof over your head, healthy food for your family, and healthcare should not be something reserved for the wealthy as it is rapidly moving towards.

Problems need to be solved not nursed along to be used for their next political campaign.

Well said with wonderful specific, concrete examples.

This is the danger of exposure to new ideas and sustained interaction with people of different backgrounds and culture: those so exposed cannot be relied upon to support building walls, banning Muslims, keeping drag queens out of schools. 

Hence the pressing need to get control of school curricula and eliminate books and programs that "open your eyes to their realities." 
Fire teachers and librarians who won't go along. Hang the 10 commandments in every classroom to fight "indoctrination." 

[BengalYankee]

(05-23-2023, 02:05 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I remember when McCain was speaking with that voter at the town hall thing and the woman said she's afraid of Obama because he's an Arab and McCain cut her off and said that he wasn't and that he wanted to focus on policy and so on.  I had a gf at the time who was a republican and she responded that McCain completely blew it by saying that and Obama was almost a shoe in now.

That was the point where I saw an educated republican admit that failing to lie and/or lean into culture war stuff that politicians and smart voters know is a lie but don't care about was harmful to the GOP's election chances.   Academically I get it, but the idea that McCain can't say that Obama is NOT a dangerous Arab was a sign where the party was headed.  

McCain and his style/supporters would eventually become an enemy to the Trumps and Kari Lakes of the world, so that says a lot, too.  Gore v McCain in 2000 would have been a more beneficial election in my mind, but thems the breaks.  I guess he really was a political fossil who got left behind by the shift of the right wing.

I hate the gooks, said John McCain, I will hate them as long as I live. Senator McCain said these words when asked about his continued use of the racial slur, "gook.".

John McCain has told us who he is.
John McCain supported the rescinding of Martin Luther King Day.
John McCain keeps on his payroll white supremacists, race-baiting swiftboaters and lobbyists for dictators and terrorists.
John McCain endorsed George Wallace, Jr., a favorite speaker among white supremacists.
He fought to keep the Confederate battle flag flying over South Carolina.
He seems to subscribe to a brand of religion-inspired bellicosity that calls for the U.S. to wage war for the sake of imparting our values upon humanity. McCain promised to immediately start wars in North Korea, Libya, and Iraq during his first presidential campaign, and in 2008 he has promised new wars to come. He sent his own money to the contra guerillas, and even visited their illegal war camp.
War is the way of John McCain, and racial bias makes it easy to execute those wars. Long before George W. Bush became president, McCain planned an invasion of Iraq. He lobbied for an Iraq invasion just days after 9/11, and when it came time to convince the American people, he insisted that the Iraq War would be easily won.
The combination of racism and warmongering are perfectly encapsulated in gook, a racist term formed during numerous U.S. wars, from the invasion of the Philippines (1898-1902) to the occupation of Haiti in 1920, to the Korean and Vietnam Wars.
John McCain used this anti-Asian slur freely with the media until he was forced to stop for fear of sabotaging his own presidential ambitions. The portrait of John McCain painted in Gook is far more disturbing than any racial epithet. A central thesis of Gook: war fertilizes racism, and racism justifies wars and the killing of civilians. This dynamic thrives within the most dangerous leaders of the world.

[Dill]

(05-24-2023, 04:08 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: I hate the gooks, said John McCain, I will hate them as long as I live. Senator McCain said these words when asked about his continued use of the racial slur, "gook.".

John McCain has told us who he is.
John McCain supported the rescinding of Martin Luther King Day.
John McCain keeps on his payroll white supremacists, race-baiting swiftboaters and lobbyists for dictators and terrorists.
John McCain endorsed George Wallace, Jr., a favorite speaker among white supremacists.
He fought to keep the Confederate battle flag flying over South Carolina.
He seems to subscribe to a brand of religion-inspired bellicosity that calls for the U.S. to wage war for the sake of imparting our values upon humanity. McCain promised to immediately start wars in North Korea, Libya, and Iraq during his first presidential campaign, and in 2008 he has promised new wars to come. He sent his own money to the contra guerillas, and even visited their illegal war camp.
War is the way of John McCain, and racial bias makes it easy to execute those wars. Long before George W. Bush became president, McCain planned an invasion of Iraq. He lobbied for an Iraq invasion just days after 9/11, and when it came time to convince the American people, he insisted that the Iraq War would be easily won.
The combination of racism and warmongering are perfectly encapsulated in gook, a racist term formed during numerous U.S. wars, from the invasion of the Philippines (1898-1902) to the occupation of Haiti in 1920, to the Korean and Vietnam Wars.
John McCain used this anti-Asian slur freely with the media until he was forced to stop for fear of sabotaging his own presidential ambitions. The portrait of John McCain painted in Gook is far more disturbing than any racial epithet. A central thesis of Gook: war fertilizes racism, and racism justifies wars and the killing of civilians. This dynamic thrives within the most dangerous leaders of the world.

LOL no one said McCain wasn't a Republican.

What is your source for all this info. Is it blurb for a book titled GOOK?*

It raises lots of questions, like WHEN did McCain support Wallace--after he renounced segregation? 

Did he endorse swiftboaters or just accept campaign contributions from them?

Who was he calling "gooks," the people who tortured him or Asians in general? 

Which media forced him to stop? Sounds like something the "liberal" media would do.

McCain planned an invasion of Iraq? By himself?? 

By the way I agree with the bolded about "this dynamic."  

*yeah, found it.  https://www.amazon.com/Gook-John-McCains-Racism-Matters/dp/0967943345

[BengalYankee]

[*Nately120*]

Bit of a self own going on here showing how vile one of the more likable republicans was.