(09-27-2017, 11:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: So they will be controlling it? Or that is just a fear?
Nothing gets decided in the EU without the Germans signing off as it stands today. The Germans are favored in every decision even when it puts the other members in a bad position.
(09-27-2017, 12:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I was scrolling down and was going to post something similar. The reason the EU military is being talked about more, now, is because they don't feel like they can be as reliant upon the US via NATO to help fend off Russia or other external threats.
Here are a couple of thoughts from me on this:
A better German military doesn't scare me with the current government. With nationalists like AfD at the helm? That would concern me more.
All of this talk about the EU pulling their weight in their own protection that we see coming from Trump supporters is essentially asking for exactly this. You want them to stand on their own? Then let them do it and stop bitching. You can't have it both ways. Either shut up and let them do their thing or continue being the neo-con/lib you are and play nice with them like we have been for decades.
Nothing is stopping them from using their own military's together. They do not need a separate EU army.
(09-27-2017, 02:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Nothing is stopping them from using their own military's together. They do not need a separate EU army.
According to you. If they feel differently, then so be it. From what I understand, the UK has been the primary opponent to the idea for years. In order to create one, the vote must be unanimous by the heads of each member state. So it's not like there is going to be a majority overpowering the minority. Any country has the ability to veto the decision, which means if it comes to fruition, they all feel it is a benefit.
But, it is also my understanding that what is really being called for is a structured organization of their militaries, which means it would not be a separate EU military. It would just be a cooperative force.
(09-27-2017, 08:14 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You are ok with giving the Germans a legitimate military force?
Yes
And yes for Japan as well.
Considering North Korea, and the fact that political ideologies are completely different from the politics in those countries from the early 20th century.
Hell even Trump said they should put their own country first, just like he was going to put America first.
(09-27-2017, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But, it is also my understanding that what is really being called for is a structured organization of their militaries, which means it would not be a separate EU military. It would just be a cooperative force.
(09-27-2017, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: According to you. If they feel differently, then so be it. From what I understand, the UK has been the primary opponent to the idea for years. In order to create one, the vote must be unanimous by the heads of each member state. So it's not like there is going to be a majority overpowering the minority. Any country has the ability to veto the decision, which means if it comes to fruition, they all feel it is a benefit.
But, it is also my understanding that what is really being called for is a structured organization of their militaries, which means it would not be a separate EU military. It would just be a cooperative force.
That is not what has been pushed in the European Parliament by Guy Verhofstadt and the rest. The reason the brits are against it is because they do not want to hand over control of their military to the EU.
Even if it's pushed as a cooperative force then what happens when the Germans decide to use it to further Germany's situation.
The Germans have proven time and again they will allow the rest of the EU suffer to further their ambitions.
Quote:Germany Is Quietly Building a European Army Under Its Command – Foreign Policy
4 months ago
Germany Is Quietly Building a European Army Under Its Command
Berlin is using a bland name to obscure a dramatic shift in its approach to defense: integrating brigades from smaller countries into the Bundeswehr.
4 months ago
Categories: Report
Elisabeth Braw
Featured image
Every few years, the idea of an EU army finds its way back into the news, causing a kerfuffle. The concept is both fantasy and bogeyman: For every federalist in Brussels who thinks a common defense force is what Europe needs to boost its standing in the world, there are those in London and elsewhere who recoil at the notion of a potential NATO rival.
But this year, far from the headlines, Germany and two of its European allies, the Czech Republic and Romania, quietly took a radical step down a path toward something that looks like an EU army while avoiding the messy politics associated with it: They announced the integration of their armed forces.
Romania’s entire military won’t join the Bundeswehr, nor will the Czech armed forces become a mere German subdivision. But in the next several months each country will integrate one brigade into the German armed forces: Romania’s 81st Mechanized Brigade will join the Bundeswehr’s Rapid Response Forces Division, while the Czech 4th Rapid Deployment Brigade, which has served in Afghanistan and Kosovo and is considered the Czech Army’s spearhead force, will become part of the Germans’ 10th Armored Division. In doing so, they’ll follow in the footsteps of two Dutch brigades, one of which has already joined the Bundeswehr’s Rapid Response Forces Division and another that has been integrated into the Bundeswehr’s 1st Armored Division. According to Carlo Masala, a professor of international politics at the University of the Bundeswehr in Munich, “The German government is showing that it’s willing to proceed with European military integration” — even if others on the continent aren’t yet.
European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has repeatedly floated the idea of an EU army, only to be met with either ridicule or awkward silence. That remains the case even as the U.K., a perennial foe of the idea, is on its way out of the union. There’s little agreement among remaining member states over what exactly such a force would look like and which capabilities national armed forces would give up as a result. And so progress has been slow going. This March, the European Union created a joint military headquarters — but it’s only in charge of training missions in Somalia, Mali, and the Central African Republic and has a meager staff of 30. Other multinational concepts have been designed, such as the Nordic Battle Group, a small 2,400-troop rapid reaction force formed by the Baltic states and several Nordic countries and the Netherlands, and Britain’s Joint Expeditionary Force, a “mini-NATO” whose members include the Baltic states, Sweden, and Finland. But in the absence of suitable deployment opportunities, such operations-based teams may as well not exist.
But under the bland label of the Framework Nations Concept, Germany has been at work on something far more ambitious — the creation of what is essentially a Bundeswehr-led network of European miniarmies. “The initiative came out of the weakness of the Bundeswehr,” said Justyna Gotkowska, a Northern Europe security analyst at Poland’s Centre for Eastern Studies think tank. “The Germans realized that the Bundeswehr needed to fill gaps in its land forces … in order to gain political and military influence within NATO.” An assist from junior partners may be Germany’s best shot at bulking out its military quickly — and German-led miniarmies may be Europe’s most realistic option if it’s to get serious about joint security. “It’s an attempt to prevent joint European security from completely failing,” Masala said.
“Gaps” in the Bundeswehr is an understatement. In 1989, the West German government spent 2.7 percent of GDP on defense, but by 2000 spending had dropped to 1.4 percent, where it remained for years. Indeed, between 2013 and 2016 defense spending was stuck at 1.2 percent — far from NATO’s 2 percent benchmark. In a 2014 report to the Bundestag, the German parliament, the Bundeswehr’s inspectors-general presented a woeful picture: Most of the Navy’s helicopters were not working, and of the Army’s 64 helicopters, only 18 were usable. And while the Cold War Bundeswehr had consisted of 370,000 troops, by last summer it was only 176,015 men and women strong.
Since then the Bundeswehr has grown to more than 178,000 active-duty troops; last year the government increased funding by 4.2 percent, and this year defense spending will grow by 8 percent. But Germany still lags far behind France and the U.K. as a military power. And boosting defense spending is not uncontroversial in Germany, which is wary of its history as a military power. Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel recently said it was “completely unrealistic” to think that Germany would reach NATO’s defense spending benchmark of 2 percent of GDP — even though nearly all of Germany’s allies, from smaller European countries to the United States, are urging it to play a larger military role in the world.
Germany may not yet have the political will to expand its military forces on the scale that many are hoping for — but what it has had since 2013 is the Framework Nations Concept. For Germany, the idea is to share its resources with smaller countries in exchange for the use of their troops. For these smaller countries, the initiative is a way of getting Germany more involved in European security while sidestepping the tricky politics of Germany military expansion. “It’s a move towards more European military independence,” Masala said. “The U.K. and France are not available to take a lead in European security” — the U.K. is on a collision course with its EU allies, while France, a military heavyweight, has often been a reluctant participant in multinational efforts within NATO. “That leaves Germany,” he said. Operationally, the resulting binational units are more deployable because they’re permanent (most multinational units have so far been ad hoc). Crucially for the junior partners, it also amplifies their military muscle. And should Germany decide to deploy an integrated unit, it could only do so with the junior partner’s consent.
Of course, since 1945 Germany has been extraordinarily reluctant to deploy its military abroad, until 1990 even barring the Bundeswehr from foreign deployments. Indeed, junior partners — and potential junior partners — hope that the Framework Nations arrangement will make Germany take on more responsibility for European security. So far, Germany and its multinational miniarmies remain only that: small-scale initiatives, far removed from a full-fledged European army. But the initiative is likely to grow. Germany’s partners have been touting the practical benefits of integration: For Romania and the Czech Republic, it means bringing their troops to the same level of training as the German military; for the Netherlands, it has meant regaining tank capabilities. (The Dutch had sold the last of their tanks in 2011, but the 43rd Mechanized Brigade’s troops, who are partially based with the 1st Armored Division in the western German city of Oldenburg, now drive the Germans’ tanks and could use them if deployed with the rest of the Dutch army.) Col. Anthony Leuvering, the 43rd Mechanized’s Oldenburg-based commander, told me that the integration has had remarkably few hiccups. “The Bundeswehr has some 180,000 personnel, but they don’t treat us like an underdog,” he said. He expects more countries to jump on the bandwagon: “Many, many countries want to cooperate with the Bundeswehr.” The Bundeswehr, in turn, has a list of junior partners in mind, said Robin Allers, a German associate professor at the Norwegian Institute for Defence Studies who has seen the German military’s list. According to Masala, the Scandinavian countries — which already use a large amount of German-made equipment — would be the best candidates for the Bundeswehr’s next round of integration.
So far, the low-profile and ad hoc approach of the Framework Nations Concept has worked to its advantage; few people in Europe have objected to the integration of Dutch or Romanian units into German divisions, partly because they may not have noticed. Whether there will be political repercussions should more nations sign up to the initiative is less clear.
Outside of politics, the real test of the Framework Nations’ value will be the integrated units’ success in combat. But the trickiest part of integration, on the battlefield and off, may turn out to be finding a lingua franca. Should troops learn each other’s languages? Or should the junior partner speak German? The German-speaking Dutch Col. Leuvering reports that the binational Oldenburg division is moving toward using English.
Quote:PUBLISHED: 07:03, Wed, Aug 16, 2017
European Union Fourth Reich discussionGETTY/TELEWIZJA REPUBLIKA
'European Union is just another name for 4th Reich' claimed an expert in Poland
THE ultimate goal of the European Union is to dissolve borders under a communist German super-state, a trio of Polish experts has claimed.
A panel of experts discussing the current political climate in Poland, told a political discussion show that instability in the nation was caused by the EU's goal to deprive Europe of its independence.
Krzysztof Karoń, Polish publicist, spoke on Telewizja Republika where he accused the European Union of writing its "communist agenda" into its own laws.
He said: "In March this year the European Commission signed its white paper, which was dubbed the Rome Declaration.
"The only binding manifesto of the EU became the communist manifesto from 1941.
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"It is written in the programme that 'the first goal is to erase borders dividing Europe into sovereign states' and that 'every single undertaking must be verified under this first point'."
He underlined that in his view this is the root of all political problems sweeping through the continent.
His comments were mirrored by Stanisław Michalkiewicz, a lawyer and political commentator, who tore into the EU by accusing it of being a "Fourth Reich".
He said: "I think that we should be wary of the danger that we will fail to see the wood for the trees.
EU fourth reich panel discussionTELEWIZJA REPUBLIKA
The three panelists claimed that the EU was aiming to dissolve borders
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EU Fourth Reich panel discussionTELEWIZJA REPUBLIKA
Mr Michalkiewicz claimed on TV that the EU is a German Fourth Reich
"There is a communist revolution which indeed is in full advance right now, and not just from March, but for a long time now.
"With the use of European institutions it heads towards the dissolution of countries and nations, but even when that happens, someone will have to steer the European Union.”
Mr Michalkiewicz went on to say that he believed, it is Germany's goal to take over leadership as the EU's "political director".
He blasted: "The European Union is simply just another name for a Fourth Reich."
"They could not write it down [in their constitution], but it contains a political programme to build a Fourth Reich.
"Right now we have a problem following President Trump's visit [to Poland], where he said he would support the Tri-Sea Project – Germany stated that he would undermine German hegemony and the Fourth Reich which they already heavily invested in."
Dr Rafał Brzeski, a special forces expert, also warned that this will all culminate in Europe becoming drafted into a "greater Eurasia".
He said: "This will either be a Europe of independent states or this will be - not a even Soviet Republic Union - but we will simply be transformed into a *****-Sovieticus or a *****-Europeisis.
TELEWIZJA REPUBLIKA
Another panelist claimed that the EU bloc will be absorbed into a 'greater Eurasia'
"We will be transformed without our individual identity, without our history, without our own nation, without our borders, without anything.
"We will be one of the atoms, one of the elements of a big European concept, which will be an entrance into Eurasia - from Vladivostok to Lisbon."
Express.co.uk approached the European Commission but an official spokesman said they were not willing to comment on the story.
(09-27-2017, 09:21 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: That is not what has been pushed in the European Parliament by Guy Verhofstadt and the rest. The reason the brits are against it is because they do not want to hand over control of their military to the EU.
Even if it's pushed as a cooperative force then what happens when the Germans decide to use it to further Germany's situation.
The Germans have proven time and again they will allow the rest of the EU suffer to further their ambitions.
Again, if the EU decides to do it, then why should you have a problem with it? For a full on integrated force it has to be a unanimous vote. If it is a cooperative force then its actions would be overseen by all the countries. Yeah, Germany is the most populous and richest country in the EU, but believe it or not other countries have a say as well.
(09-28-2017, 11:01 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Again, if the EU decides to do it, then why should you have a problem with it? For a full on integrated force it has to be a unanimous vote. If it is a cooperative force then its actions would be overseen by all the countries. Yeah, Germany is the most populous and richest country in the EU, but [b]believe it or not other countries have a say as well. B/b]
If they decide to do this, that is on them. If allies decide to do things like this then that is their prerogative.
An anti-EU tabloid quoting anti-EU commentators. Not even wasting my time on this one.
Go ahead and list all the EU actions that have been bad for Germany and helped other members in the EU.
We can certainly find EU actions that have been good for Germany and bad for other members of the EU.
The Euro is manipulated to benefit Germany exports.
Too bad Europe couldnt have done this decades ago during the cold war. The U.S. could have saved a lot of money instead of being their military umbrella.
(09-28-2017, 03:20 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Too bad Europe couldnt have done this decades ago during the cold war. The U.S. could have saved a lot of money instead of being their military umbrella.
But Europe was divided at the time. The major player was the UK and they want to take everyone else's sovereignty, not rule jointly.
(09-28-2017, 02:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Did the EU hold a vote on it, in which a majority of the representatives of the various countries voted for the action?
The EU parliament is not allowed to put forth anything to vote on. It's done in a secret room of unelected people which nothing gets out of that room without the Germans signing off.
(09-28-2017, 03:22 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But Europe was divided at the time. The major player was the UK and they want to take everyone else's sovereignty, not rule jointly.
And now The Germans are now taking away everyone else's sovereignty via the EU.
(09-28-2017, 06:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The EU parliament is not allowed to put forth anything to vote on. It's done in a secret room of unelected people which nothing gets out of that room without the Germans signing off.
So that's a yes.
Also, the Council is made up of representatives of the elected governments of each member nation. They, along with the EUP (which is directly elected), elect the Commission. This makes the Commission an elected body indirectly by the people of the EU. Even though they propose legislation, Parliament must still vote on the legislation to pass it.
Claims the EU is undemocratic are false.
(09-28-2017, 06:41 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: And now The Germans are now taking away everyone else's sovereignty via the EU.
The Germans are one of 28 member nations. They have one vote out of 28 in the Council and the Commission. There are 751 seats in the EUP, of which Germany has 96, or 12.8%.
(09-28-2017, 08:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So that's a yes.
Also, the Council is made up of representatives of the elected governments of each member nation. They, along with the EUP (which is directly elected), elect the Commission. This makes the Commission an elected body indirectly by the people of the EU. Even though they propose legislation, Parliament must still vote on the legislation to pass it.
Claims the EU is undemocratic are false.
The Germans are one of 28 member nations. They have one vote out of 28 in the Council and the Commission. There are 751 seats in the EUP, of which Germany has 96, or 12.8%.
How are they taking away everyone's sovereignty?
Why did you have to go and ruin this thread with facts?
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Macron: EU needs joint budget, joint military.
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