2/25/20 Democratic debate.

[HarleyDog]

What are your thoughts on how these candidates are doing and their stances? Seems to me that Buttigieg seems to be doing well (although I believe it's his home state). His delivery is well received. I would like to hear more from Klobuchar, but she's not getting a lot of time. Bloomberg is just playing defense. Warren doesn't seem prepared to debate, but more to attack (that's going to hurt her) and, well, Biden. Not sure about where he is coming from. He seems authoritarian. I don't think Sanders is doing too well and Steyer hasn't been able to speak but a few words (He's going to have to force his words in like the others or he won't get his point across). 

[NATI BENGALS]

Bernie Amy and Pete are my top 3. This debate didn’t sway me one way or the other.

I voted for Bernie in the last primary. Will probably vote for Bernie in the next primary.

Amy is the most normal and I think the most electable and has the best chance to appeal to the right. But I don’t really give a shit about pandering to trumpets.

Pete makes the list because he actually served in the military. But like we saw with the lady in Iowa who was a democrat and cast her vote for Pete and then found out he was gay and wanted to change her vote. It is instantly disqualifying for many voters and would probably lock trump in for 4 more.

[Belsnickel]

This is an interesting thing to read since most of the left-wing takes are that Bernie and Warren have won the last two debates.

[HarleyDog]

(02-26-2020, 08:39 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is an interesting thing to read since most of the left-wing takes are that Bernie and Warren have won the last two debates.

Hmmm. Didn’t think warren did too good at all? She was boo’d a few times. 

[Belsnickel]

(02-26-2020, 08:51 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Hmmm. Didn’t think warren did too good at all? She was boo’d a few times. 

That audience was anything but representative of the Democratic voting base. At no less than $1750 a ticket, those folks represented people that would be more hostile to Warren and Sanders. The take from the actual voting base is going to be different.

[BmorePat87]

Warren's punches on Bloomberg didn't land as well because he adopted an automated response of "why are we litigating this, let's talk about the policies". While it's all BS from him, it makes it look like he cares about policy and Warren doesn't. She needs to take the gloves off with Bernie more. She needs to present herself as a better alternative because she can't win by placing 3rd and 4th each time. She also won't be VP if he is the nominee. Two old white people from New England?

Same ol', same ol' from Bernie, Pete, and Amy. Pete says he's the best alternative to Bernie, who he claims will shut too many out rather than expanding the tent. He had a good line about Bernie's math adding up to 4 more years of Trump. Bernie Bros are trying to characterize his comments on Bernie bringing up Castro's "revolutionary politics of the 60's" as Pete being against all US policies of the 60's. He had too little air time, though, and Biden did well which hurts him.

Bernie deflects when asked about specifics. He claims to have a plan to fully fund M4A but there's a $12t funding gap in it and instead of addressing it he brought up a study written by one of his campaign advisors that says overall health care spending would be down in the US, but that doesn't address the burdening shifting to the federal government and how the federal government would pay for it.

Amy goes the Pete route too but focuses on her legislative history. It was kind of weird to hear her complain about racial injustice after she defended prosecuting an innocent black man at the last debate.

Biden had a good debate. This is what he needed and he should be looking for Clyburn's endorsement soon.

Why is Steyer there?

[Belsnickel]

The biggest screw up, IMHO, came from Pete. His commentary about being against the revolutionary politics of the 1960's is being seen as bashing the Civil Rights Movement. Bernie's campaign is helping with that, but it was a bad soundbite.

[BmorePat87]

(02-26-2020, 10:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The biggest screw up, IMHO, came from Pete. His commentary about being against the revolutionary politics of the 1960's is being seen as bashing the Civil Rights Movement. Bernie's campaign is helping with that, but it was a bad soundbite.

It's a bad sound bite when you ignore that the question was about Bernie's comments on Castro remove Pete talking about Castro immediately after it. I didn't expect any integrity from the Bernie Bros on this and they have not disappointed so far. 

"Is to actually win to the presidency and I am not looking forward to a scenario where it comes down to Donald Trump with his nostalgia for the social order of the 1950s and Bernie Sanders with the nostalgia for the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. This is not about what coups were happening in the 1970s or '80s. This is about the future. This is about 2020. We are not going to survive for six need an we're certainly not going to win by reliving the Cold War and we're not going to win these critical House and Senate races if people in those races have to explain why the nominee of the Democratic Party is telling people to look at the bright side of the Castro regime."

[GMDino]

I appreciate the feedback here because I didn't watch and my Facebook feed is full of republicans saying it was a joke and they all made Trump look sane (paraphrasing)

[Belsnickel]

(02-26-2020, 10:13 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's a bad sound bite when you ignore that the question was about Bernie's comments on Castro remove Pete talking about Castro immediately after it. I didn't expect any integrity from the Bernie Bros on this and they have not disappointed so far. 

"Is to actually win to the presidency and I am not looking forward to a scenario where it comes down to Donald Trump with his nostalgia for the social order of the 1950s and Bernie Sanders with the nostalgia for the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. This is not about what coups were happening in the 1970s or '80s. This is about the future. This is about 2020. We are not going to survive for six need an we're certainly not going to win by reliving the Cold War and we're not going to win these critical House and Senate races if people in those races have to explain why the nominee of the Democratic Party is telling people to look at the bright side of the Castro regime."

Definitely an interesting soundbite. And it's not just the Bernie Bros doing it, it's the official campaign pages.

I do want to add, though, that the whole thing with Bernie and Castro is also bullshit. As Sanders said after the debate, it is no different than what Obama said about Cuba.

[CJD]

(02-26-2020, 10:13 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's a bad sound bite when you ignore that the question was about Bernie's comments on Castro remove Pete talking about Castro immediately after it. I didn't expect any integrity from the Bernie Bros on this and they have not disappointed so far. 

"Is to actually win to the presidency and I am not looking forward to a scenario where it comes down to Donald Trump with his nostalgia for the social order of the 1950s and Bernie Sanders with the nostalgia for the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. This is not about what coups were happening in the 1970s or '80s. This is about the future. This is about 2020. We are not going to survive for six need an we're certainly not going to win by reliving the Cold War and we're not going to win these critical House and Senate races if people in those races have to explain why the nominee of the Democratic Party is telling people to look at the bright side of the Castro regime."

As Bernie said in his interview with Joe Rogan, "You shouldn't even call them a debate. What they are is a, you know, reality TV show in which you have to come up with a sound bite and all that stuff. It's demeaning. It's demeaning to the candidates and it's demeaning to the American people. You can't explain the complexity of healthcare in America in 45 seconds. Nobody can."

Last night, Pete lost the reality TV show that is creating sound bites from debates.

[BmorePat87]

(02-26-2020, 11:05 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: As Bernie said in his interview with Joe Rogan, "You shouldn't even call them a debate. What they are is a, you know, reality TV show in which you have to come up with a sound bite and all that stuff. It's demeaning. It's demeaning to the candidates and it's demeaning to the American people. You can't explain the complexity of healthcare in America in 45 seconds. Nobody can."

Last night, Pete lost the reality TV show that is creating sound bites from debates.

This is why I prefer the town halls where they can have all the time they need to answer a question.

[BmorePat87]

(02-26-2020, 10:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Definitely an interesting soundbite. And it's not just the Bernie Bros doing it, it's the official campaign pages.

I do want to add, though, that the whole thing with Bernie and Castro is also bullshit. As Sanders said after the debate, it is no different than what Obama said about Cuba.

Just like with what Pete said, the sentiment is not bad, but the optics are. Bernie is already being called a communist by the GOP and saying anything slightly positive about Castro hands them ammunition.  

[CJD]

(02-26-2020, 10:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Definitely an interesting soundbite. And it's not just the Bernie Bros doing it, it's the official campaign pages.

I do want to add, though, that the whole thing with Bernie and Castro is also bullshit. As Sanders said after the debate, it is no different than what Obama said about Cuba.

I completely agree with you that criticizing Sanders for saying a positive thing about a horrible regime is bullshit. That said, I wish he'd stop doing that.

It's like when he said “For better or for worse, the Cuban revolution is a very profound and very deep revolution. Much deeper than I had understood,” Sanders wrote. “More interesting than their providing their people with free health care, free education, free housing ... is that they are in fact creating a very different value system than the one we are familiar with.”" back in 1989.


Or when he said “there are some things that (the Soviet Union does) better than we do and which were, in fact, quite impressive. Subway systems in Moscow costs 5 kopecs — or 7 cents. Faster, cleaner, more attractive and more efficient than any in the U.S. — and cheap.” in 1988.


Or when he said "Is it a totalitarian country? No, it is not a totalitarian country. Are there civil liberties. Yeah, there are civil liberties. Is it a perfectly free country? No, it most certainly is not. Is it freer than of the most of the countries in Central America? Yeah, it is," Sanders said. "Within the context of the misery and the lack of democracy in Central America, it holds up reasonably well. Is the Nicaraguan government always right? The answer is absolutely not. Have they made mistakes? Sure they have." in regards to the Nicaraguan government attempting to fight back against the Iran-Contra Scandal in the 1980s.


Like...he makes good points in each case. You can have good aspects of a government even when the regime running that government is corrupt, totalitarian, authoritarian or otherwise awful.


But you're already being compared unfavorably to these same regimes. Why are you saying a good word about them? It's just a bad look. Radicals on the right can easily spin these as "endorsements" simply by not including the condemnation parts. It's just like these recent comments with Cuba.


Bernie specifically said "We're very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba but you know, it's unfair to simply say everything is bad..." before going into the comment about their literacy program. 

If you want to paint Sanders as a communist, all you have to do is add a "..." at the beginning of your quote and exclude this section, leaving you with:

"...When Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing?..." and boom. Sanders is a communist.


If he would just stop complimenting these guys, he'd stop giving the right (and centrist left) fodder to smear him with.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-26-2020, 11:41 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I completely agree with you that criticizing Sanders for saying a positive thing about a horrible regime is bullshit. That said, I wish he'd stop doing that.

It's like when he said “For better or for worse, the Cuban revolution is a very profound and very deep revolution. Much deeper than I had understood,” Sanders wrote. “More interesting than their providing their people with free health care, free education, free housing ... is that they are in fact creating a very different value system than the one we are familiar with.”" back in 1989.


Or when he said “there are some things that (the Soviet Union does) better than we do and which were, in fact, quite impressive. Subway systems in Moscow costs 5 kopecs — or 7 cents. Faster, cleaner, more attractive and more efficient than any in the U.S. — and cheap.” in 1988.


Or when he said "Is it a totalitarian country? No, it is not a totalitarian country. Are there civil liberties. Yeah, there are civil liberties. Is it a perfectly free country? No, it most certainly is not. Is it freer than of the most of the countries in Central America? Yeah, it is," Sanders said. "Within the context of the misery and the lack of democracy in Central America, it holds up reasonably well. Is the Nicaraguan government always right? The answer is absolutely not. Have they made mistakes? Sure they have." in regards to the Nicaraguan government attempting to fight back against the Iran-Contra Scandal in the 1980s.


Like...he makes good points in each case. You can have good aspects of a government even when the regime running that government is corrupt, totalitarian, authoritarian or otherwise awful.


But you're already being compared unfavorably to these same regimes. Why are you saying a good word about them? It's just a bad look. Radicals on the right can easily spin these as "endorsements" simply by not including the condemnation parts. It's just like these recent comments with Cuba.


Bernie specifically said "We're very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba but you know, it's unfair to simply say everything is bad..." before going into the comment about their literacy program. 

If you want to paint Sanders as a communist, all you have to do is add a "..." at the beginning of your quote and exclude this section, leaving you with:

"...When Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing?..." and boom. Sanders is a communist.


If he would just stop complimenting these guys, he'd stop giving the right (and centrist left) fodder to smear him with.

I don't think you have to really be a radical on the right to "spin" what he says about Castro and Cuba.  Democrats will do it.  Moderates will do it.  It's pretty easy to do. 

[CJD]

(02-26-2020, 11:53 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't think you have to really be a radical on the right to "spin" what he says about Castro and Cuba.  Democrats will do it.  Moderates will do it.  It's pretty easy to do. 

Yea. when context is ignored, a lot of things look crazy.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-26-2020, 12:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Yea. when context is ignored, a lot of things look crazy.

Best not to compliment brutal dictators then you don't have to worry about context.  Ask Marge Schott. 

[Dill]

(02-25-2020, 11:08 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: What are your thoughts on how these candidates are doing and their stances? Seems to me that Buttigieg seems to be doing well (although I believe it's his home state). His delivery is well received. I would like to hear more from Klobuchar, but she's not getting a lot of time. Bloomberg is just playing defense. Warren doesn't seem prepared to debate, but more to attack (that's going to hurt her) and, well, Biden. Not sure about where he is coming from. He seems authoritarian. I don't think Sanders is doing too well and Steyer hasn't been able to speak but a few words (He's going to have to force his words in like the others or he won't get his point across). 

So far I have favored Warren, but her "just kill it" remark to Bloomberg really turned me off. That is Trump-style debate. She needed only give viewers a quick reminder of Bloomberg's history, then move on.  She should not have said Bernie's people attacked her healthcare program. That is as bad as Kobuchar saying "Wish we could all be as perfect as you, Pete." Snippy and bitchy.

It was proper Biden complained once about others allowed to go over time. Then quit whining.

The only one who seems to get better is Buttigieg, but he seems to me rather conservative.
Biden is still the guy with the most experience, especially foreign policy.

Klobuchar and steyer need to drop out. I want to see if their voters will go to Biden or Bernie.  Right now I'm worried that Bernie's plurality may also be his limit. But I am not SURE that is the case.  Could really be the Dem party has shifted enough to support an almost SOCIALIST candidate.