Meanwhile, as we question the character of draft picks...

[xxlt]

Is the NFL really just the modern equivalent of this?





Some people were suggesting as much decades ago and continue to today with essays and with books like this:



Marge Schott famously referred to Eric Davis as her, "Million Dollar n - - - - r." (And if you think it is dumb that I wouldn't type a word everyone knows, well, yeah it is, but I am trying to stay on the right side of the authorities here about and I am really hoping for some serious dialogue about this. Yeah I know, I can wish in one hand and wizz in the other and see which one is filled first...) And, many players have more or less agreed with good ol' Mrs. Schott's assessment of the relationships between themselves and their owners.

Seriously though, even if one wants to divorce the racial element from the conversation, is football our version of this?





When you have so many men with checkered pasts as they enter the league (and often checkered futures in the league- see Adam Jones and Aaron Hernandez as obvious examples) and so many leaving the game with broken bodies and damaged brains... I really question the character of those who profit so immensely from the enterprise and how others so eagerly support it financially.

It just feels like we fans are the Roman citizenry in the Colosseum (our living rooms a proxy for it) or the citizens of the town that ringed Candyland in Django Unchained.

If nobody else ever asks themselves questions like this, fine. I am a weirdo. Not a state secret. Just wonder if others ever think about it, question financially supporting it, etc.

[grampahol]

I hate to bring this up, but there's quite a bit of difference between outright slavery where people and families are ripped apart at the whims of slave masters and guys getting paid multi million dollar paychecks to play a kids game.. if it were true slavery these players would have no players union representation and probably be held in bondage in chains. Guys like Adam Jones would have been lynched surrounded by a bunch of guys in goofy white hoods.. 
Now, is there an element of exploitation that goes on?  Sure, absolutely, but it's strictly voluntary. Last time I checked most slaves didn't get to drive around town in a brand new Porche and make TV commercials to sell athletic shoes and other junk..   

[fredtoast]

There are lots of people with problems in their past that go into every type of employment in this country. There are bankers, lawyers, stock brokers, and doctors who also got into trouble in college or high school. So the NFL is no different. And some of the most succesful businessmen ruin their health by working 60 hours a week and suffering from stress related problems

This is not like during the industrial revolution when the poor were forced to work under conditions that killed them or destroyed their health. The way coal barons and industrial magnates treated labor back then was close to slavery. they forced them to work in deadly conmditions and if anyone complained they were removed. But the NFL is not like that either. these guys are paid millions of dollars in exchange for any damage to their health. I think that college athletes should get paid something, but they are still in a situation that is NOTHING like slavery.

[Okeana]

This is the biggest pile of liberal non sense ive seen since yesterday. I literally refuse to even quote the post because im ashamed to have even read it. Shame on you

[xxlt]

(04-29-2017, 11:44 AM)grampahol Wrote: I hate to bring this up, but there's quite a bit of difference between outright slavery where people and families are ripped apart at the whims of slave masters and guys getting paid multi million dollar paychecks to play a kids game.. if it were true slavery these players would have no players union representation and probably be held in bondage in chains. Guys like Adam Jones would have been lynched surrounded by a bunch of guys in goofy white hoods.. 
Now, is there an element of exploitation that goes on?  Sure, absolutely, but it's strictly voluntary. Last time I checked most slaves didn't get to drive around town in a brand new Porche and make TV commercials to sell athletic shoes and other junk..   

Interesting. Since you bring up families being ripped apart, what happens if a player lives in Texas and is drafted by a team in New York. Is he expected to leave his family because he was drafted? Interesting too, isn't it that military conscription and professional sports both hold "drafts." Of course, one is much more "selective" in whom in chooses to put in "service" and targets a particular sort of poor young man with limited options, but at the end of the day there are some similarities. You can be a "lottery" pick...

As far as representation, there are more than a few owners and more than a few fans who would be delighted to tell you and the world just how evil unions are and that it is the unions that are ruining sports. You seem to think it is a good thing that players are  not held in chains and have representation. Whether that is what you think or not, not everyone would agree with those notions.

Back to families, prior to the Curt Flood case, if a player didn't want to play for the team he was drafted by, what were his options? Again, many will tell you the era before free agency was better, when a team literally owned a player just like they owned the uniforms and equipment. Some saw the change as progress. Some fought it. I wonder why?

You do agree there is an element of exploitation. OK. I want to point out that your description of how good today's players have it with nice cars and shoes and shoe contracts is very similar to an argument made by a stunning number of people to defend slavery. They say, quite seriously, "Hey, those slave masters treated those slaves pretty well!"

Anyway, thanks for bringing up how there is quite a bit of difference. And sorry you hated doing it.

[xxlt]

(04-29-2017, 11:52 AM)fredtoast Wrote: There are lots of people with problems in their past that go into every type of employment in this country.  There are bankers, lawyers, stock brokers, and doctors who also got into trouble in college or high school.  So the NFL is no different.  And some of the most succesful businessmen ruin their health by working 60 hours a week and suffering from stress related problems

This is not like during the industrial revolution when the poor were forced to work under conditions that killed them or destroyed their health.  The way coal barons and industrial magnates treated labor back then was close to slavery.  they forced them to work in deadly conmditions and if anyone complained they were removed.  But the NFL is not like that either.  these guys are paid millions of dollars in exchange for any damage to their health.  I think that college athletes should get paid something, but they are still in a situation that is NOTHING like slavery.

Yes 'toast, lots of people make mistakes in their youth. But I will suggest the NFL is different. Point me to a bank, a law firm, a stock brokerage, or a medical practice where their reputation at the local level and beyond is as a haven for thugs (or white collar criminals) and I may stand corrected. The entire NFL is seen that way and the Bengals in particular are viewed as the epitome of a franchise where character is irrelevant if you are athletic.

To say that working 60 hours a week (which by the way, far more people at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum do than at the higher end) is the same as being paid to do what has been called like "being in 60 car crashes in an afternoon" (playing football) is not accurate.

The poor, as already noted, still often work under conditions that kill them or destroy their health, including having to work 2 and 3 jobs for 60-80 hours a week to make ends meet. No those people aren't drug addicts, and they aren't living above their means. They are the millions of working poor who live a subsistence existence. I honestly thought you knew better.

Ever heard of a guy named Chris Kluwe? But you're right, the NFL never removes people who say things the league doesn't want to hear. And who are the biggest proponents of the NFLPA? The owners right? Yeah, sure they are!

[xxlt]

(04-29-2017, 11:56 AM)Okeana Wrote: This is the biggest pile of liberal non sense ive seen since yesterday.  I literally refuse to even quote the post because im ashamed to have even read it.  Shame on you

This is exactly the sort of thoughtful and in depth analysis I was hoping to see. Great critique with solid insights indicative of deep thought. Way to go beardo! :andy:

[The Caped Crusader]

I don't think this is liberal/conservative or anything...this is just a junk post. I'm sorry. I'm all for abstract thoughts, views and perspectives. Differing opinions can open up subjects, topics and understanding into each other.

That being said, reaching for a Skip Bayless like topic like this is just absurd. For starters, the NFL is far from slavery. These guys live a dream that so many young kids (and grown men like myself) dream of every day. This is an opportunity even lottery odds can't cover. They get paid millions to play a job most of them truly ENJOY. How many people can say that? There is no equivalent to slavery, nor should the subject be brought up for the sake of doing so.

Yeah, I think there is a degree of exploitation in the NFL. It is a major corporation/business after all. They all run on some sort of money machine designed to bring a continuous revenue stream. The NFL lives and breathes off its players. That is the only 'connection' it has to slavery (and that most are african american, but even then, many races were slaves too).

I'm sorry. Perhaps I missed the post, but this is a large leap in logic. Just doesn't really seem necessary for the Jungle Noise forum.

[xxlt]

(04-30-2017, 07:59 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: I don't think this is liberal/conservative or anything...this is just a junk post. I'm sorry. I'm all for abstract thoughts, views and perspectives. Differing opinions can open up subjects, topics and understanding into each other.

That being said, reaching for a Skip Bayless like topic like this is just absurd. For starters, the NFL is far from slavery. These guys live a dream that so many young kids (and grown men like myself) dream of every day. This is an opportunity even lottery odds can't cover. They get paid millions to play a job most of them truly ENJOY. How many people can say that? There is no equivalent to slavery, nor should the subject be brought up for the sake of doing so.

Yeah, I think there is a degree of exploitation in the NFL. It is a major corporation/business after all. They all run on some sort of money machine designed to bring a continuous revenue stream. The NFL lives and breathes off its players. That is the only 'connection' it has to slavery (and that most are african american, but even then, many races were slaves too).

I'm sorry. Perhaps I missed the post, but this is a large leap in logic. Just doesn't really seem necessary for the Jungle Noise forum.

First, I put it in JN rather than P&R because I know a ton of regulars never go to P&R and the OP really is about how we as sports fans participate in the exploitation to feed a money machine that you admit in your post above does in fact exist. So, I wanted to see what sports fans felt about that issue - and as you agree, it is real. In case you didn't realize it, I highlighted the part of your post where you did agree about that.

I don't know who Skip Bayless is, but I guess that was supposed to be some sort of dig. But since you then agreed there is exploitation and that the NFL is a, "money machine... [of] continuous revenue... [that] lives and breathers off its players.." I guess you kind of have a little of the ol' Skipper in you too? I'm sure you can learn to live with it or if you can't maybe there is a 12 step group for it...

Now, I did it on draft weekend because I know everyone has their draft chubby this weekend and anyone who says boo to anything football related that is not the Joe Mixon pick is going to get a nearly allergic reaction of contempt. And we have seen that in the thread. But that is OK, I still wanted to raise the question because 1.) it is what I was thinking about yesterday after visiting the forums for a while and 2.) I am genuinely curious what those capable of more serious thought have to say about it.

I'm fascinated that you can apparently both see and not see the parallels and sorry that if offends you that it is in JN. Just looking to see what sports fans would say. And I realize that I probably should have waited until 4 hours after the draft for their tumescence to wear off, but it was on my mind so I posted it.

[BonnieBengal]

(04-30-2017, 08:14 AM)xxlt Wrote: First, I put it in JN rather than P&R because I know a ton of regulars never go to P&R and the OP really is about how we as sports fans participate in the exploitation to feed a money machine that you admit in your post above does in fact exist. So, I wanted to see what sports fans felt about that issue - and as you agree, it is real. In case you didn't realize it, I highlighted the part of your post where you did agree about that.

I don't know who Skip Bayless is, but I guess that was supposed to be some sort of dig. But since you then agreed there is exploitation and that the NFL is a, "money machine... [of] continuous revenue... [that] lives and breathers off its players.." I guess you kind of have a little of the ol' Skipper in you too? I'm sure you can learn to live with it or if you can't maybe there is a 12 step group for it...

Now, I did it on draft weekend because I know everyone has their draft chubby this weekend and anyone who says boo to anything football related that is not the Joe Mixon pick is going to get a nearly allergic reaction of contempt. And we have seen that in the thread. But that is OK, I still wanted to raise the question because 1.) it is what I was thinking about yesterday after visiting the forums for a while and 2.) I am genuinely curious what those capable of more serious thought have to say about it.

I'm fascinated that you can apparently both see and not see the parallels and sorry that if offends you that it is in JN. Just looking to see what sports fans would say. And I realize that I probably should have waited until 4 hours after the draft for their tumescence to wear off, but it was on my mind so I posted it.

This belongs in P&R.  The reasoning "Not as many people will see it." is not a valid excuse for putting it in Jungle Noise. 

[xxlt]

(04-30-2017, 08:32 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: This belongs in P&R.  The reasoning "Not as many people will see it." is not a valid excuse for putting it in Jungle Noise. 

Moderators are certainly free to move it if they wish. It is about football, not about politics or religion. It is about what it means to be a fan. Are all the threads about Joe Mixon in P&R? No. People question his character, and the pick but it is in the football forum. But shouldn't JN be restricted to his YPC, where he lines up, and whether he starts? Why is his character being discussed here? That is a religious matter, or at least not a football matter...

This thread is asking what culpability fans have for what the NFL in general and their team in particular does. People are questioning Mixon's character (and other draft picks as well) and I am questioning my own character and that of my fellow fans. I heard WCPO TV channel in Cincinnati did the same thing with an editorial asking people to take any money they would have spent on Bengals tickets or merchandise and instead donating to a shelter for battered women, and to never financially support the team again. I wonder if any fans are thinking about that?

I think that is football related more so than mock drafts or threads about a single pick. This is about football and football fans ergo JN. Now if many football people aren't capable of thinking seriously about it - and there is some evidence of that - and if more people tackle more serious topics in Klotsch or P&R or other subforums that isn't a reason to put it in the wrong place either. It just means there are more serious conversations in other subforums, but this is still about football and I want as many football fans as possible to weigh in. By the way, what is your opinion on it other than you didn't want to see it in JN?

['E']

Slavery ?...Not even close.

These guys choose to enter this profession, and with salaries what they are these days many can choose to retire after a couple of years and have millions in the bank to live on for the rest of thier lives....That is unless they choose to spend it foolishly.

[Marlon23]

(04-30-2017, 08:32 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: This belongs in P&R.  The reasoning "Not as many people will see it." is not a valid excuse for putting it in Jungle Noise. 

Thank You please Admin MOVE!

[BonnieBengal]

(04-30-2017, 08:51 AM)xxlt Wrote: Moderators are certainly free to move it if they wish. It is about football, not about politics or religion. It is about what it means to be a fan. Are all the threads about Joe Mixon in P&R? No. People question his character, and the pick but it is in the football forum. But shouldn't JN be restricted to his YPC, where he lines up, and whether he starts? Why is his character being discussed here? That is a religious matter, or at least not a football matter...

This thread is asking what culpability fans have for what the NFL in general and their team in particular does. People are questioning Mixon's character (and other draft picks as well) and I am questioning my own character and that of my fellow fans. I heard WCPO TV channel in Cincinnati did the same thing with an editorial asking people to take any money they would have spent on Bengals tickets or merchandise and instead donating to a shelter for battered women, and to never financially support the team again. I wonder if any fans are thinking about that?

I think that is football related more so than mock drafts or threads about a single pick. This is about football and football fans ergo JN. Now if many football people aren't capable of thinking seriously about it - and there is some evidence of that - and if more people tackle more serious topics in Klotsch or P&R or other subforums that isn't a reason to put it in the wrong place either. It just means there are more serious conversations in other subforums, but this is still about football and I want as many football fans as possible to weigh in. By the way, what is your opinion on it other than you didn't want to see it in JN?

Joe Mixon is a Cincinnati Bengal, making it a Cincinnati Bengal discussion.  Your thread is a political statement about the NFL.

[Luvnit2]

Maybe worst post of the year by the OP.

Slavery = Men and women forced to work for nothing
NFL = Men choose to work for millions

Just an idiotic comparison

[fredtoast]

(04-30-2017, 07:56 AM)xxlt Wrote: Yes 'toast, lots of people make mistakes in their youth. But I will suggest the NFL is different. Point me to a bank, a law firm, a stock brokerage, or a medical practice where their reputation at the local level and beyond is as a haven for thugs (or white collar criminals) and I may stand corrected. The entire NFL is seen that way and the Bengals in particular are viewed as the epitome of a franchise where character is irrelevant if you are athletic.

I agree that the perception of the NFL as compared to other professions is flawed and does not reflect reality.  I can't do anything about that.

(04-30-2017, 07:56 AM)xxlt Wrote: To say that working 60 hours a week (which by the way, far more people at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum do than at the higher end) is the same as being paid to do what has been called like "being in 60 car crashes in an afternoon" (playing football) is not accurate. 

Over work will kill you young just like playing in the NFL.  Over working is a health care problem in Japan.  

(04-30-2017, 07:56 AM)xxlt Wrote: The poor, as already noted, still often work under conditions that kill them or destroy their health, including having to work 2 and 3 jobs for 60-80 hours a week to make ends meet. No those people aren't drug addicts, and they aren't living above their means. They are the millions of working poor who live a subsistence existence. I honestly thought you knew better. 

Don'tknow what this has to do with the NFL.

(04-30-2017, 07:56 AM)xxlt Wrote: Ever heard of a guy named Chris Kluwe? But you're right, the NFL never removes people who say things the league doesn't want to hear. And who are the biggest proponents of the NFLPA? The owners right? Yeah, sure they are!

Yes I have heard if Klew.  But again you are making a big deal about something that happens with every company in the  world.  You speak bad about your employer then you can get fired.  If Klew was a better player he may bve able to say things without getting canned, but he isn't.  and that is exactly how it works with every slave owner, er. I mean "employer" anywhere.

[BengalsRocker]

It's simply a matter of having a choice and not having a choice.

Being a forced slave or choosing to put yourself in harm's way for loads of money are completely different ends of the spectrum.

It's really not that hard to see the difference.

I wonder those championing this stance consider all races when they push this propaganda?

[fredtoast]

I will point out that an overwhelming najority of NFL players do not earn "millions" or anything close to enough to live on for the rest of their lives. The average NFL player is only in the league 3 yeras. and rookie contracts are usually just a few hundred thousand a year.

[Millhouse]

My answer to the OP is no.

No being the obvious difference between black slaves, and black athletes of the last 60 years. Dont think I need to really explain those differences from legal ones to life expectancy to quality of life overall and so-on.

That said I can understand the illusion of having a bunch of super rich white dudes bringing in a ton of black players (many times regardless of character issues), to better their team and make them more money. And let's say even for a second that there may be some truth to it being 'modern slavery', sports (football) for black athletes have helped many from getting out of 'the hood' and exposing them to college & maybe more. Same thing for poor white & hispanic athletes from downtrodden areas as well. I think that should be part of the conversation too imo.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-30-2017, 10:22 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I will point out that an overwhelming najority of NFL players do not earn "millions" or anything close to enough to live on for the rest of their lives.  The average NFL player is only in the league 3 yeras.  and rookie contracts are usually just a few hundred thousand a year.

I hesitate to post in this horrible trashy junk thread that needs to be burned off this site, BUT... league minimum is $465k in 2017, I believe, and that's literally the least you can make on a team.

Clayton Fejedelem was a 7th round pick last year and got a 4yr/$2.4m contract. If he only lasts 3 years in the NFL, he will walk away with $1.7m.