Meanwhile, in North Dakota ...

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2015, 11:02 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Don't be so naive, Fred. 'Somebody' definitely hopes to occupy us. We're surrounded by evidence, exhibit 1 being the militarization of law enforcement. But let's look at further evidence, shall we?

The Church Comittee clearly outlines abuses committed by the several alphabet agencies as well as branches of the military.

COINTELPPRO offers nice segway into those U.S. Political prisoners you deny. Of course first, we must define the term.

Here Encyclopedia Brittanica define Political Prisoner as;

Amnesty International defines them as;


Hmmm, I wonder if we can find anyone that fits into these descriptions?

Martin Luther King Jr ring a bell?

I've read several times that

Under that definition many activists from the 60's and 70's fit the bill, according to former Mayor, Congressman and U.S. Ambassador the the United Nations Andrew Young, who said;


Just ask former NY attorney Lynne Stewart what the Patriot Act is all about.

Onto limited freedoms. If...

Arbitrary Justice

Assassination of U.S. citizens

Indefinite Detention

Warrantless Searches

Secret Evidence

Secret Courts

... aren't indicative of limited freedoms, then I'll have what you're having. The use of drones is one thing, using weapons mounted drones is brings it to another level.

And finally, a level playing field is only fair. The right bear arms isn't to kill Bambi. It's to guard against tyranny, which brings this reply full circle.

Lot's of "blahblahblahblahblah" with no substance.

You list a grand total of one political prisoner held by the United States 60 years ago.

No property seizure. No people taken prisoner.  No extortion using stolen private information.  No limiting of any rights to protest.  There is not sign we are headed toward "occupation".

There will always be a need for secret courts when dealing with foreign relations.  But there have been no victims of these secret court by U.S. citizens that don't flee the jurisdiction of the United States.  

[Devils Advocate]

(09-02-2015, 12:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote:

Quote:Lot's of "blahblahblahblahblah" with no substance.

Hardly 'blahblahblah and certainly filled with substance.  

Quote:You list a grand total of one political prisoner held by the United States 60 years ago. No people taken prisoner.

Recent Political Prisoners. You're prolly familiar with case. I could list many more.

MLK wasn't jailed alone. Moreover, you failed to address those political Prisoners of the 60's and 70's. You said there weren't any. There is. I gave you examples.

Quote:No property seizure....  No extortion using stolen private information.

DEA has doubled its property seizures since 2001

I could list dozens of stories where individuals accused of no wrong doing have their money seized for simple suspicion. But I'm positive you're aware of that.

Quote:No limiting of any rights to protest.  There is not sign we are headed toward "occupation".

You've got to be kidding me. Define 'free speech' zone, lmao.  

Everything I've listed in this thread is evidence of occupation.

Quote:There will always be a need for secret courts when dealing with foreign relations.  But there have been no victims of these secret court by U.S. citizens that don't flee the jurisdiction of the United States.  

The THREAT these courts pose is the point, dude. 

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2015, 11:38 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Recent Political Prisoners. You're prolly familiar with case. I could list many more. 

I am very familiar with this case.  I used to work in Oak Ridge.  In her case i think the courts got it correct.  She vandalized a high security federal facility.  They indicted her on some big charge like treason, but she was basically convicted of a felony vandalism charge.  She go  t a three year sentence and then was released on appeal.

There was no dispute they committed a vadalism. The guys that were with her got bigger sentences, but I don't remember why.  I am pretty sure they were all released early.

So they were not sent to jail for their political beliefs.  They were sent to jail for damaging government property.  And they did create a breech in a high security defense facility when they cut through the fence.  You can't let that type of behavior go unpunished.

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2015, 11:38 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: You've got to be kidding me. Define 'free speech' zone, lmao.  

In the United States even the most offensive groups are still allowed to protest in public.  The fact that we have instituted buffer zones to help maintain the peace in no way means we are eliminating the right to free speech.  

Basically you are crying not because you are not allowed to protest your opinion in public, but the fact that you are not allowed to scream it directly in someones face.

That is a pretty lame victim card.

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2015, 11:38 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: DEA has doubled its property seizures since 2001


I could list dozens of stories where individuals accused of no wrong doing have their money seized for simple suspicion. But I'm positive you're aware of that. 

I agree that this is a money grab, and a much abused privilege.

But I can also point out that the people who have their property seized are entitled to full due process in court to get their money back.  I agree that in many cases they should never have to go to this trouble and expense.  But it is much different than having the government use its power to take property from people with no recourse.

If anything you would have a stronger argument in the area of the governments abuse of "eminent domain", but I am not going to make your points for you.

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2015, 11:38 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: MLK wasn't jailed alone. Moreover, you failed to address those political Prisoners of the 60's and 70's. You said there weren't any. There is. I gave you examples. 

I agree that we have had political prisoners in the past.  But I just see that as more proof that our system works.

There have been a lot of power grabs in U.S. history.  I think Lincoln was wrong to suspend the right to habeas corpus.  I felt FDR was wrong to try to expand the supreme court and pack it with like minded liberals.  We were wrong to have Japanese Americans placed in internment camps during WWII.  And the "Red Scare" really got us sideways with Joe McCarfthy in the Senate, and the the Un-American Activities Committee over in the House.

But every single time there has been a power grab it has been brought under control.  And that is because we have a pretty damn good system.  

[Devils Advocate]

(09-03-2015, 11:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am very familiar with this case.  I used to work in Oak Ridge.  In her case i think the courts got it correct.  She vandalized a high security federal facility.  They indicted her on some big charge like treason, but she was basically convicted of a felony vandalism charge.  She go  t a three year sentence and then was released on appeal.

There was no dispute they committed a vadalism. The guys that were with her got bigger sentences, but I don't remember why.  I am pretty sure they were all released early.

So they were not sent to jail for their political beliefs.  They were sent to jail for damaging government property.  And they did create a breech in a high security defense facility when they cut through the fence.  You can't let that type of behavior go unpunished.

They were charged with sabotage. The fact that the government would attempt such a high charge is telling. I'm surprised they weren't charged with treason. Under the definitions I've listed above, these are political prisoners. 

[Devils Advocate]

(09-03-2015, 11:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In the United States even the most offensive groups are still allowed to protest in public.  The fact that we have instituted buffer zones to help maintain the peace in no way means we are eliminating the right to free speech.  

Basically you are crying not because you are not allowed to protest your opinion in public, but the fact that you are not allowed to scream it directly in someones face.

That is a pretty lame victim card.

No they have not been eliminated, they have been limited, which is the term you used. What good is protesting when you have to do it 10 blocks away, outta view and earshot of your directed audience?

[Devils Advocate]

(09-03-2015, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree that this is a money grab, and a much abused privilege.

But I can also point out that the people who have their property seized are entitled to full due process in court to get their money back.  I agree that in many cases they should never have to go to this trouble and expense.  But it is much different than having the government use its power to take property from people with no recourse.

If anything you would have a stronger argument in the area of the governments abuse of "eminent domain", but I am not going to make your points for you.

Ha! Eminent Domain was the most obvious avenue, therefore it goes without mentioning. 

Yeah victims of robbery have due process, but at what cost? In many cases, Recourse is such a burden and often times difficult to ascertain. It's effectively an abuse of power even if you refuse to see it. 

[Devils Advocate]

(09-03-2015, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree that we have had political prisoners in the past.  But I just see that as more proof that our system works.

There have been a lot of power grabs in U.S. history.  I think Lincoln was wrong to suspend the right to habeas corpus.  I felt FDR was wrong to try to expand the supreme court and pack it with like minded liberals.  We were wrong to have Japanese Americans placed in internment camps during WWII.  And the "Red Scare" really got us sideways with Joe McCarfthy in the Senate, and the the Un-American Activities Committee over in the House.

But every single time there has been a power grab it has been brought under control.  And that is because we have a pretty damn good system.  

We at least you realize there have been power grabs. And there's no end in sight. So keep an eye on your Rights and property because somebody wants it.