Michigan dentist sued for music choices

[Vlad]

(01-18-2016, 11:41 PM)GMDino Wrote: A few serious questions:

If they don't want to pray to they have to be in the room?


If they choose to NOT stand there and be quiet and say talk to another person is there repercussions?

Do you let different people lead the prayers so, say if one want to pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for health it would be OK?

If they tell you they don't believe in prayer is there any kind of repercussion?

Have the meeting first, then anyone that chooses to stick around for prayer can do so or is free to leave and go about their duties.

I know that if I was working at Muslim owned business, where the majority of workers were Muslim, I would have no objection sitting through prayers as a non participant.

I certainly wouldn't demand to lead a prayer in the name of Jesus simply out of consideration for the non-Christian majority.


Now I'm not saying this would be certain, it would depend on how extreme left these people are, but it wouldn't surprise me that if these people were working for a Muslim dentist, that they would bend over backwards to be accommodating because they have tolerance for others religion and culture. Makes them feel good about themselves. Being tolerant of devout Christians doesn't make them feel good about themselves so much.

[Au165]

(01-19-2016, 12:06 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Repercussions?   Like what?  Other than thinking they are being a rude jerk to anyone participating.  

I have never had anyone who works for me  tell me they don't believe in prayer or God.  I don't make a point to railroad People about God, they are responsible for their own salvation.  

As far as letting others lead....  If they asked I wouldn't have an issue but in the same breath they will be respectful of the moment and others.    My assistant has lead before when my voice is not right.    She is younger and handles it just fine.  

As far as leaving the room.... The prayer takes a couple minutes if that.... No one leaves or even makes an issue of it.  

Now I will say that if one of them asked me to stop I would not.   I would just tell them they can feel free to stay in silence during that portion and respect others as we will respect their preference to not participate.

I hope you have a good lawyer, as you are primed to get sued at some point. My guess is you either lose, or lose a ton of money defending it. One bad hire and you could be in a bad position...

[fredtoast]

The problem with religion is all the baggage that comes with it. Disagreeing with your boss over fashion, movies, or professional sports can be written off as no big deal. But when your boss brings religion to tha table that is a whole differnt thing. Christians believe that homosexuals deserve to be punished in hell fire for eternity becaus of who they are attracted to. Christians believe that women should be subservient to men in certain areas. And, finally, Christians believe that they have been ordered by Jesus to try and get everyone to convert to Christianity. If you are a woman or a homosexual then bringing Christianity into the workplace gives the appearance of bias.

And Religion is not something a person can just "look over". It is possible for an employer to say "I don't care if he is a Steelers fan as long as he is doing his job and making me money", but a true Christian can not do that because his religious beliefs are much more important than anything that would happen at work.

And even though I have used "Christian" in my example, the same rules apply to pretty much any religion.

[*bfine32*]

(01-19-2016, 02:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Christians believe that homosexuals deserve to be punished in hell fire for eternity becaus of who they are attracted to.  Christians believe that women should be subservient to men in certain areas.  

Isn't this like saying all muslims are savages?

For instance: I am a Christian and do not believe homosexuals should be punished for eternity simply because of whom they are attracted to.

I would have to know more what you mean by "certain areas" to speak to the woman part and most of my views on gender roles have very little to do with my Christian faith and more to do with my personal values.

[Au165]

(01-19-2016, 03:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Isn't this like saying all muslims are savages?

For instance: I am a Christian and do not believe homosexuals so be punished for eternity simply because of whom they are attracted to.

I would have to know more what you mean by "certain areas" to speak to the woman part and most of my views on gender roles have very little to do with my Christian faith and more to do with my personal values.

Yea, it was a bit of a wide reaching comment I think.

[*bfine32*]

(01-19-2016, 03:13 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yea, it was a bit of a wide reaching comment I think.

Bigoted and stereotypical

[Belsnickel]

Obviously it has been discovered that there is more to it than piping religious music throughout the office, but I wanted to get a little anecdotal for a second. I switched dentists because of, in part, something similar. They had some religious music CD that was always on when I went in, and it bugged me even as a Christian. It bugged my wife more.

Now, the larger reason for leaving was because there was a very creepy aura about the dentist himself, and the way he staffed that office I sincerely felt like it was a front for human trafficking from eastern Europe. It's kind of like when you go to a Chinese restaurant and the staff always changes because they are using it as a job for their friends and family who immigrate to get on their feet. It was that, except for they were from the former Soviet bloc and his interactions with them were...a little less than professional from my observations.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-19-2016, 12:14 AM)GMDino Wrote: So if they want to step out or check their phone you'd be OK with that?

Also, and sorry if this has been mentioned, are you a faith based business of is this just because of your own personal beliefs?

I run a real estate investment group. We say a short prayer before a meeting. It's not like we speak in tongues.

As for the dentist no idea what they were doing but typically christian music Is hard to tell from regular music.

[fredtoast]

(01-19-2016, 03:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Bigoted and stereotypical

Sorry, I was just talking about Christians that follow the teachings of the Bible.

And that is my point.  When you hold yourself out as a Christian then people are entitled to believe that you follow the teachings of the Bible.  And this applies to all religions.  I may disagree strongly with the beliefs of Christians and Muslims, but here in the UNited States people are allowed to worship and follow whatever religion they want.  However we have laws against taking it to the workplace because it can lead to discrimination.  Some Christians and Muslims may not discriminate against homosexuals, but since that is often impossible to prove we make laws to remove the the opportunity.

A Christian boss may not discriminate against a homosexual employee who refuses to pray with him, but if that employee is consistently passed over for promotions or given the worst work assignments there is going to be an appearance of discrimination.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-19-2016, 01:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I hope you have a good lawyer, as you are primed to get sued at some point. My guess is you either lose, or lose a ton of money defending it. One bad hire and you could be in a bad position...

I am not worried. Our employees love us. And we don't just hire anyone either. It's competitive and you need to know us and we need to know you before it goes anywhere.

We don't have a lot of employees but the ones we do are instep with what we are doing.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-19-2016, 03:33 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Obviously it has been discovered that there is more to it than piping religious music throughout the office, but I wanted to get a little anecdotal for a second. I switched dentists because of, in part, something similar. They had some religious music CD that was always on when I went in, and it bugged me even as a Christian. It bugged my wife more.

Now, the larger reason for leaving was because there was a very creepy aura about the dentist himself, and the way he staffed that office I sincerely felt like it was a front for human trafficking from eastern Europe. It's kind of like when you go to a Chinese restaurant and the staff always changes because they are using it as a job for their friends and family who immigrate to get on their feet. It was that, except for they were from the former Soviet bloc and his interactions with them were...a little less than professional from my observations.

Was the dentist Eastern European as well?

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2016, 04:14 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Was the dentist Eastern European as well?

No. I know he did a lot of traveling in the region, but he was not.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-19-2016, 04:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: No. I know he did a lot of traveling in the region, but he was not.

Very interesting. I wonder if the girls were mostly Ukrainian or spread around former soviet states.

[*bfine32*]

(01-19-2016, 04:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, I was just talking about Christians that follow the teachings of the Bible.

And that is my point.  When you hold yourself out as a Christian then people are entitled to believe that you follow the teachings of the Bible.  And this applies to all religions.  I may disagree strongly with the beliefs of Christians and Muslims, but here in the UNited States people are allowed to worship and follow whatever religion they want.  However we have laws against taking it to the workplace because it can lead to discrimination.  Some Christians and Muslims may not discriminate against homosexuals, but since that is often impossible to prove we make laws to remove the the opportunity.

A Christian boss may not discriminate against a homosexual employee who refuses to pray with him, but if that employee is consistently passed over for promotions or given the worst work assignments there is going to be an appearance of discrimination.

Oh, so you didn't mean Christians; you meant religions that believe in the Old Law and not salvation through Christ.

Even given religions that adhere to the old law your wording was poor as best; deliberately divisive at worst. You have no idea if the feel homosexuals "should" go to Hell for eternity; perhaps their laws states they will. Furthermore the whole Hell for Eternity is up for debate as the scripture points simply returning to dust.

My personal belief is if there is no malice in your sin; yet, you did not accept Christ, you will simply cease to exist. However, if there is malice and blasphemy such as attempting to shine those that believe in a negative light in your sin there may be a price to pay. 

But like a good Christian I pray they see the light before it is too late.

[fredtoast]

(01-19-2016, 05:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, so you didn't mean Christians; you meant religions that believe in the Old Law and not salvation through Christ.

No I meant Christians.  In fact I have seen YOU post quotes from the New Testament that prove Christ disapproves of homosexuality.

And even though your decription of your beliefs here don't exactly match the positions you hav etaken in tyhe past it doesn;t really matter.  The reason we have laws against employees injecting religious requirements in the workplace is because of the opportunity for discrimination.  When a Christian boss ask employees to pray in the workplace it is not up to the employees to grill him to find out if he really discriminates against them.  In fact that is exactly the type of behavior that could get an employee released or discriminated against.

[*bfine32*]

(01-19-2016, 05:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I meant Christians.  In fact I have seen YOU post quotes from the New Testament that prove Christ disapproves of homosexuality.

And even though your decription of your beliefs here don't exactly match the positions you hav etaken in tyhe past it doesn;t really matter.  The reason we have laws against employees injecting religious requirements in the workplace is because of the opportunity for discrimination.  When a Christian boss ask employees to pray in the workplace it is not up to the employees to grill him to find out if he really discriminates against them.  In fact that is exactly the type of behavior that could get an employee released or discriminated against.

Where the hell did I say Christian "approve" of homosexuality? 

As to the rest: of course no employer should force their religious views upon its employees until that company is religious in nature. Where has anyone said that?

[fredtoast]

(01-19-2016, 05:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where the hell did I say Christian "approve" of homosexuality? 

When you claimed that Christians like yourself would never discriminate against homosexuals.

If you disapprove of their actions because your god tells you it is wrong then they are subject to be discriminated against by you.  You judge them to be wrong while you and the people who agree with you are right.  That was my point. The fact that you quibble over the extent of their punishment is irrelevant to my point.

[fredtoast]

(01-19-2016, 05:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  

As to the rest: of course no employer should force their religious views upon its employees until that company is religious in nature. Where has anyone said that?

Go back and read what I wrote.

Even if an employer does not "force his beliefs" on anyone that does not mean he is not subject to discriminating against employees based on their religious beliefs.  When a boss is trying to decide who to give a promotion is he going to give it to his "normal" Christian employee, or the sinner who refuses to pray and accept the glory of Jesus?  Or maybe one of those Jews who rejected Jesus and killed him?  Or the Muslim who has been duped by a false prophet?

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2016, 05:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Very interesting. I wonder if the girls were mostly Ukrainian or spread around former soviet states.

I know at least two of them that I met were Ukrainian, but I never really conversed with many of them in a way where we could talk about that.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-19-2016, 08:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I know at least two of them that I met were Ukrainian, but I never really conversed with many of them in a way where we could talk about that.

Reason I ask is because there are many girls from the Ukraine who try to get here via a work permit. Most try as an au pair. So it would not surprise me at all if some were taken advantage.